The FAST AS HELL Evolution of Bigs

[Arizona_Sting]

Seems like just two years ago we were talking about how the center position/big man was dead and guards were going to dominate the NBA for years to come....

Now, holy shit tits.

Ya got;

Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins all playing the best ball of their careers, plus,

You've got newcomers in:

Karl Anthony Towns
Rudy Gobert
Nikola Jokic
Myles Turner
Kristaps Porzingis
Joel Embiid
Giannis Atentokoumpo (not necessarily a big but NOT SURE WHAT THIS CREATURE IS)
Hassan Whiteside

And some solid contributors in Gorgui Dieng, Jonas Valanciunas, Marcin Gortat and Steven Adams.

Then the good old school style Drummond's and DeAndre Jordan's who play D, rebound, and block shots, but can't hit a free throw or create their own shot to save their damn lives.

Versatile bigs in Horford, Millsap, Love, Ibaka and Lopez.


How did this happen so fast, sweet baby Jesus. I'm probably forgetting a few guys too...

 

[bksballer89]

Send this thread to the league office so they put the C position back on AS ballot

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Send this thread to the league office so they put the C position back on AS ballot

They really need to add an extra spot or two for each conference.

 

[msgkings322]

They really need to add an extra spot or two for each conference.

It's true that more deserve to be allstars, but then what you have 14 players to sub in? Also, no matter where you draw the line, there will always be snubs. If it's 14 and Lillard and Conley get in, then 2 other guys will (rightly) complain they deserve it too. So 12 is fine. Makes it a true honor.

 

[wildturkey]

It didn't happen that fast. Its the result from the early 00s rule changes that emphasized skill. To fully take advantage of those rules, you have to be able to dribble, pass, shoot, from all over the floor (also known as playing basketball). This explosion is the result of youth players who were taught this way in AAU, etc as a trickle down effect are now entering the NBA some 10 to 15 years after those rules were put in place. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of the guys you listed are 25 or younger.

 

[tlance]

Send this thread to the league office so they put the C position back on AS ballot

Well, here is the thing about that though. Whiteside and Hobert are the only two players on that list that are traditional centers. Gasol is obviously a center too, but with the way he has developed his three point shot it is hard to call him traditional.

I do think they should revamp the all star ballot process, but like this:

2 guards, 2 bigs (forward/center) and 1 flex (can be anybody)

Position is less important than ever in today's NBA. The fact that Westbrook isn't starting is a joke. Westbrook, Curry and Harden should all start.

In a game where defense is an afterthought, the best players should be on the court together and the ballot should be as flexible as possible to allow that to happen.

 

[WiggyRuss]

It's true that more deserve to be allstars, but then what you have 14 players to sub in? Also, no matter where you draw the line, there will always be snubs. If it's 14 and Lillard and Conley get in, then 2 other guys will (rightly) complain they deserve it too. So 12 is fine. Makes it a true honor.

why revamp it?

if a guy deserves it he deserves it

its not like a "center" was left of the roster when they even had a decent argument to be on....

not only that- but of the OP's list- at least HALF those guys if not more are NOT "traditional centers".

 

[trojanfan12]

Imo, they still need to include "Center" as a position because it still is a position. Just because the way the position is played has evolved, doesn't mean it's not still a position and shouldn't be listed.

Besides, it makes it easier for us old guys to deal with. lol

 

[flyerhawk]

Well, here is the thing about that though. Whiteside and Hobert are the only two players on that list that are traditional centers. Gasol is obviously a center too, but with the way he has developed his three point shot it is hard to call him traditional.

Pretty sure Embiid is a definitive center. Just because he can shoot and is athletic doesn't change what he is.

 

[tlance]

Pretty sure Embiid is a definitive center. Just because he can shoot and is athletic doesn't change what he is.

He is more in the mold of Davis and Cousins though. If you need him to play the 4, he can.

 

[flyerhawk]

He is more in the mold of Davis and Cousins though. If you need him to play the 4, he can.

Yeah but he is 7'0" and 250 lbs. He could play the 4 because of his athleticism. But he's still a prototypical 5.

 

[tlance]

Yeah but he is 7'0" and 250 lbs. He could play the 4 because of his athleticism. But he's still a prototypical 5.

I think we have very different definitions of a prototypical 5.

For me, it isn't based on size. A protypical 5 plays primarily with his back to the basket or as a screener in pick and roll. Yes, Embiid has the size of an old school center, but that is not how he plays.

 

[flyerhawk]

I think we have very different definitions of a prototypical 5.

For me, it isn't based on size. A protypical 5 plays primarily with his back to the basket or as a screener in pick and roll. Yes, Embiid has the size of an old school center, but that is not how he plays.

Well he isn't Shaq. But Hakeem played a similar style. Embiid is also only 22.

 

[tlance]

Well he isn't Shaq. But Hakeem played a similar style. Embiid is also only 22.

I think that is a pretty good comparison in terms of style.

At least for me, (I know some will disagree), burn I do not really classify guys like Hakeem and David Robinson as "protypical centers". They were all time greats because of their ability to do things that most centers couldn't.

Obviously Embiid has a long way to go, but he has that type of talent.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yeah but he is 7'0" and 250 lbs. He could play the 4 because of his athleticism. But he's still a prototypical 5.

he shot 6 3's the other night.....its not like he is a guy who plays just in the paint....id say maybe he plays the majority of the time in the paint, but he spends plenty of time on the outside...as do a lot of these bigs.

they dont play like traditional centers.

the traditional center that plays on hte post and has a point guard feed him the ball, and play inside-out...thats dead in the league. no one plays that way anymore- unless you have a big that can really pass like Gasol- and even he hangs on the outside shooting 3's now.

 

[flyerhawk]

he shot 6 3's the other night.....its not like he is a guy who plays just in the paint....id say maybe he plays the majority of the time in the paint, but he spends plenty of time on the outside...as do a lot of these bigs.

they dont play like traditional centers.

the traditional center that plays on hte post and has a point guard feed him the ball, and play inside-out...thats dead in the league. no one plays that way anymore- unless you have a big that can really pass like Gasol- and even he hangs on the outside shooting 3's now.

I agree. The back to the center low post center is more or less dead in today's league. It's not that several of these can't do it. It's that the teams don't want them to do it. They want their 5 to be able to swing out wide AND play the paint especially on defense.

Those 3s Embiid made were certainly part of the game the Sixers are envisioning. As was his absurd block of Harden at the rim.

If we had a reincarnation of Shaq,perhaps a team would change their system to feed him the ball because he was more or less unstoppable. But short of a monster like that, I think the positional requirements are just different now.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I agree. The back to the center low post center is more or less dead in today's league. It's not that several of these can't do it. It's that the teams don't want them to do it. They want their 5 to be able to swing out wide AND play the paint especially on defense.

spot on

the back-to-the-basket big doesnt even really exist in the NBA anymore.

 

[LogicMan]

Maybe what is going on is that the modified 5 post the three point era is most valuable when they can play big when needed but still have handles. There are times, regardless the three, when having a 5 be able to post low is huge.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Maybe what is going on is that the modified 5 post the three point era is most valuable when they can play big when needed but still have handles. There are times, regardless the three, when having a 5 be able to post low is huge.

i dont think its so much about having a "handle" on the perimeter as much as its about

1. not killing your team because you cant shoot- letting the other defense pack the paint

2. not killing your team becuase you are too slow to effectively guard the high pick and roll- which every team runs a fair deal of

if you have a big man like Embiid who cna guard the rim and rebound--- BUT- who ALSO can keep the defense honest with his outside shot, and can play the pick and roll and switch/show well and have the quicks to get back in the paint--

then you are HUGELY valuable.

"traditional centers" that hang out in the paint, cant keep the defense honest with their shot, and ply with their back to the basket- are really huge liabilities in todays game in a lot of ways no matter how good athey are at shot blocking or rebounding.

 

[Inimical]

It didn't happen that fast. Its the result from the early 00s rule changes that emphasized skill. To fully take advantage of those rules, you have to be able to dribble, pass, shoot, from all over the floor (also known as playing basketball). This explosion is the result of youth players who were taught this way in AAU, etc as a trickle down effect are now entering the NBA some 10 to 15 years after those rules were put in place. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of the guys you listed are 25 or younger.

The Evolution is largely in part due to the increased popularity of the sport world wide. They do play different more to their genetics in different parts of the world. A guy like Giannis would have been told to be a PF or C if he had come along 10 years prior. Or hell, not even pick up a basketball at all. But with the stretching popularity and open mindedness of world scene you get a guy like him who is absolutely un guard able at his position. A guy like Ben Simmons at PG would create havoc. And god, Embiid is un guard able as well.