The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Albuquerque Rams]

lol

I'm giving your waste of time posts exactly the reaction they deserve.

Cop out excuse for people who have lost the argument.

 

[trojanfan12]

Cop out excuse for people who have lost the argument.

^^^^from the guy making shit up and calling them facts^^^^

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

^^^^from the guy making shit up and calling them facts^^^^

Says I'm making shit up yet can't provide a single example of anything I made up.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yes, objective facts are "jumping the shark." You Bron Stans are hilarious.

Win shares mean jack shit. There is no objective person that would argue the 89 Bulls were a less talented team than the 07 Cavs.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Win shares mean jack shit. There is no objective person that would argue the 89 Bulls were a less talented team than the 07 Cavs.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize someone appointed you arbiter of who is objective or what qualifies as objective criteria. My mistake for not acknowledging your "authoritah."

I'm basing my argument on factual data. You're going off name recognition. How much talent you have matters less than how much you produce. And the fact is the '07 Cavs outside LeBron were more productive than the '89 Bulls outside Jordan.

 

[msgkings322]

You have officially jumped the shark

It's not even the right year. The first title team was 1990-91, what do those win shares look like? Everyone counts 2007 against LeBron when he dragged dogshit to the finals, Jordan had better teams it's not a big deal. He's still GOAT

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

It's not even the right year. The first title team was 1990-91, what do those win shares look like? Everyone counts 2007 against LeBron when he dragged dogshit to the finals, Jordan had better teams it's not a big deal. He's still GOAT

It helps they didn't face anyone worth a damn until the Finals.

 

[rmilia1]

Imo the only 4 players with a GOAT argument in hoops are

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Russell

You could MAYBE throw Magic in there but that's really it and i personally wouldn't include Magic ( even though he's my favorite player ever )

Russells argument is really only the rings. Clearly he's a HoFer and great player as well but if he had say 5 rings no one would mention him

I personallg think Kareems resume is pretty easily the best ever especially if you include all levels of basketball but even just NBA its still the best resume

 

[Stakesarehigh]

It helps they didn't face anyone worth a damn until the Finals.

The Pistons won the title 3 years earlier you schmuck. If the 07 Pistons suck, so does every team Jordan ever beat.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize someone appointed you arbiter of who is objective or what qualifies as objective criteria. My mistake for not acknowledging your "authoritah."

I'm basing my argument on factual data. You're going off name recognition. How much talent you have matters less than how much you produce. And the fact is the '07 Cavs outside LeBron were more productive than the '89 Bulls outside Jordan.

Win shares are not objective data to compare across teams. Additionally lebron was 22 years old, MJ was 25. And as pointed out, once you get to an actual title team for MJ, Grant and Pippen jump to 10 and 11. Crazy how it works huh, those 2 got better and MJ won. Weird

 

[Stakesarehigh]

It's not even the right year. The first title team was 1990-91, what do those win shares look like? Everyone counts 2007 against LeBron when he dragged dogshit to the finals, Jordan had better teams it's not a big deal. He's still GOAT

His argument is that MJ would have won it all if not for Detroit. Ironically enough he is then also arguing the 07 Pistons are trash. Change the result of one game in 2005 and you could easily argue the 2000s Pistons were more successful than the Bad Boys.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

The Pistons won the title 3 years earlier you schmuck. If the 07 Pistons suck, so does every team Jordan ever beat.

The Pistons would have been no better than the 4th seed in the West with their record. Basically that series was the equivalent of a No. 5 versus a No. 4 in a first round series. Nothing special. They don't get to coast on glory from three years prior.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Win shares are not objective data to compare across teams. Additionally lebron was 22 years old, MJ was 25. And as pointed out, once you get to an actual title team for MJ, Grant and Pippen jump to 10 and 11. Crazy how it works huh, those 2 got better and MJ won. Weird

Another example of Bron Stans disingenuously using his age as both a prop and a crutch. If he beats three underwhelming opponents in the East, "OMG, look at what he's doing at 22!" If he gets unceremoniously swept by the only legitimate opponent he faces, "But he's only 22!"

You can save it. We can see the double talk and it's pretty blatant.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The Pistons would have been no better than the 4th seed in the West with their record. Basically that series was the equivalent of a No. 5 versus a No. 4 in a first round series. Nothing special. They don't get to coast on glory from three years prior.

They treated the regular season like the Celtics this year did, they went to the ECF 6 years in a row. Aside from the 90/91 Pistons and HIV Magic no team Jordan ever beat accomplished shit then.

As stated 2 years earlier they could have easily beat the Spurs, the year prior lose to the eventual Champs.

You looking at seasonal records tells me you know very little of what you speak. Which is evident.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

His argument is that MJ would have won it all if not for Detroit. Ironically enough he is then also arguing the 07 Pistons are trash. Change the result of one game in 2005 and you could easily argue the 2000s Pistons were more successful than the Bad Boys.

Change your auntie's genitals and she'd be your uncle.

I didn't say anything about winning it all. Don't put words in my mouth. My only point is that Jordan's roster in '89 was arguably worse than LeBron's in '07 and that the '89 Bulls season ended one round earlier because the absolute best team in the league was in their conference, not the opposite.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Another example of Bron Stans disingenuously using his age as both a prop and a crutch. If he beats three underwhelming opponents in the East, "OMG, look at what he's doing at 22!" If he gets unceremoniously swept by the only legitimate opponent he faces, "But he's only 22!"

You can save it. We can see the double talk and it's pretty blatant.

He made a finals 5 years before MJ age wise and 3 nba seasons. Sorry this FACT troubles you.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Change your auntie's genitals and she'd be your uncle.

I didn't say anything about winning it all. Don't put words in my mouth. My only point is that Jordan's roster in '89 was arguably worse than LeBron's in '07 and that the '89 Bulls season ended one round earlier because the absolute best team in the league was in their conference, not the opposite.

You are the one playing IF games here. Again the FACTS are those Pistons teams from the 2000s accomplished more than any team Jordan beat from 93 on.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

They treated the regular season like the Celtics this year did, they went to the ECF 6 years in a row. Aside from the 90/91 Pistons and HIV Magic no team Jordan ever beat accomplished shit then.

As stated 2 years earlier they could have easily beat the Spurs, the year prior lose to the eventual Champs.

You looking at seasonal records tells me you know very little of what you speak. Which is evident.

Excuses, excuses. They would have been the No. 4 seed in the West. Period. Former DPOY Ben Wallace was gone and replaced with a washed up Chris Webber and post-knee injury Antonio McDyess.

Detroit's only obvious advantage was in the backcourt. The frontcourt favored Cleveland. LeBron is obviously better than Tayshaun Prince. Ilgauskas, Gooden and Varejao is a better frontline than aging Rasheed, washed up Webber and washed up McDyess. So no, this was not some grandiose upset. Detroit just wasn't that good.

Only two Finals appearances with that many ECF trips? Yeah, they weren't that good. Those teams were constructed similarly to the '80s Bucks. Difference is they didn't face anyone in the East nearly on par with Larry's Celtics or Dr. J's Sixers, who took turns eliminating the Bucks five consecutive years.

So yeah, the Pistons of that era just weren't that good.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You are the one playing IF games here. Again the FACTS are those Pistons teams from the 2000s accomplished more than any team Jordan beat from 93 on.

So what? That version of the 2000s Pistons was the worst of that stretch. They were the '80s Bucks without the misfortune of running into the Bird Celtics or Dr. J Sixers.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You are the one playing IF games here. Again the FACTS are those Pistons teams from the 2000s accomplished more than any team Jordan beat from 93 on.

Except I haven't played a single if game. Just stating facts that the absolute best team in 1989 was in the same conference as Jordan and that the absolute best team in 2007 was in the opposite conference as LeBron