The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Mr. Friscus]

I have no idea why this NBA GOAT debate has become so polarizing, but it has. It's largely a foolish endeavor, as different generations have different factors, and trying to compare directly is pretty much impossible. But, we do it, and while I try to generally avoid it, I'll do it here.

My only ask is that for anyone who replies to make any counterpoints in a debate style format. If your response is "OMG if u don't think Jordan is the GOAT u don't know basketball"... just stay out of it. I'll make specific points, and those are what need to be addressed. Also, let me just say that I can can make cases for and against MJ, just as I can with Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc. All contenders have weaknesses, this is not an NHL-Gretzky dynamic where there's one undeniable GOAT.

So, Here's my reasons why MJ isn't the GOAT. I welcome any respectful, thoughtful rebuttals, because like I said, I can make a case for Jordan as well.

1. He didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year in the league, and his early playoff appearances were filled with being dominated and swept out of the playoffs.

2. While he scored a lot, he shot a lot, more than anyone in NBA history. He would routinely shoot 30 plus shots a game, especially in his early years. He wasn't an efficient scorer much of the time, and while he had springs like noone else, he had no long jumper or 3 point presence (not that the 3 was used as a threat then anyways)

3. The entire league went through the 80's, not just MJ. I get tired of hearing about the over-hyped "Jordan rules", and how the Pistons were just so mean to him, and only him. No. The Pistons laid everyone out.. Bird, Barkley, Magic, Isaiah, etc. ... and Jordan lost to the Pistons again, and again, and again. Throughout the 80's, Jordan had his absolutely spurts of greatness (look at any Cavs vs Bulls series in the 80's), but also had plenty of duds and chokes in pivotal games. The whole "Michael would have made it" mantra is a mythology created by Gen X ESPN fan boys who bought the Nike/NBA/ESPN dogma.

4. Jordan was given a head start as far as traveling and fouls once he was crowned as the golden boy by the league, Nike, and sports media. He was the first guy who was allowed extra steps, and the first to play Harden-style ball who relied on getting the call from the ref.

5. Jordan didn't win when other 80's golden-era superstars were in their prime. Bird, Magic, and Isaiah all dominated MJ and the Bulls. The 90's bulls flourished as the league's greatest teams aged. Back then, being over 30 was old, as modern training techniques weren't being implemented. The 1990 Bulls faced a washed up Magic Lakers team that had cobwebs.

6. Jordan's Bulls didn't reach the next level until Scottie Pippen elevated and Phil Jackson (The coaching GOAT) joined him. MJ needed them to become dominant as a team. Phil Jackson is the pivotal piece. Not only did he bring the bulls from a minimal playoff team to a 3-peat champion in Chicago (twice), but then he did it again in LA.. and realize, Shaq and Kobe were bounced out of the playoffs early multiple times in the late 90's before Phil Jackson arrived and suddenly the Lakers were unstoppable. That's a check against Jordan.

7. Jordan didn't face intense all-time competition at the shooting guard position. I admit, you can say that's a testament to Jordan, but you can also at the same time admit that the other Superstars in the league were either PG's (Magic, Stockton, Isaiah), forwards (Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Bird) or Centers (Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing). The list of Shooting guards that guarded or were guarded by Jordan involves perhaps Drexler and Reggie Miller (who often owned MJ), but beyond that you have Joe Dumars, Byron Scott, Jeff Hornacek, Ron Harper, Dan Majarle, Rickey Pierce, John Starks, Steve Smith... let's be real, it was the position that had the least amount of greatness around an all-time great player.

8. Jordan's Bulls finals opponents were generally weak all time. The 1990 Lakers were ancient, the 91 Blazers had reached a finals previously.. but while they had a very solid lineup (Terry Porter, Drexler, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams, Kevin Duckworth).. nobody is calling them much. The best team the bulls beat was probably the Suns in 92-93, but that was just a prime MVP Charles Barkley with smaller factors like Kevin Johnson, Dan Majarle, etc. The 96 Sonics with Kemp and Payton weren't anything all-time (Payton guarded Jordan well), and the Jazz had Stockton Malone, but beyond that were completely outmatched by a superior supporting Bulls cast (Kukoc, Rodman, Harper, etc.)

9. PIVOTAL POINT: After MJ retired for the first time after their 57-25 1992-93 Season, Jackson, Pippen, and others stayed... and the next season without MJ they went 55-27. That's a mic drop. Right there, that proves that while the Bulls likely needed MJ to put them over the top, MJ did not account for high level success of the Chicago Bulls. Jordan was a finisher, but many other players in the GOAT conversation accounted for far more wins than MJ did for his team.

10. While the MJ Establishment likes to forget this, it's true Jordan had an amazing comeback at the end of the 1994-95 season, but he gagged away the series by carelessly choking up the basketball in the final seconds as the bulls lost to the Magic. Many people don't even know that happened, because so many Jordan fans pretend Jordan's career was 6 years long plus the 63 point double OT loss to the Celtics.

11. Even in major NBA Finals moments, Jordan had plenty of moments where he gagged away last second shots. It's only the mythology that makes you think he "would have made" any clutch shot. Here's a few Just in the finals, not the whole playoffs:
- 1990 Game 1 the Lakers are up 92-91 with 9 seconds left, Chicago inbounds to Jordan who pulls up at 18 feet and misses/chokes. Loss.
- 1992 Game 2 the Blazers tied with 12 seconds left, Jordan walks the ball up and shoots with 2 sec left and bricks it, choking.
- 1997 Game 4 The Jazz are up 76-73 with 10 sec left, Jordan shoots a fadeaway 3 and chokes, jazz win.
- 1998 Game 5 The Jazz are up with 0.8 sec left, Jordan gets a good look on a catch and shoot and misses, another "choke".

12. And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.

From my experience, there are MJ fans (disciples) who take such critique very seriously. Let me again say, I could lay out an argument FOR MJ being the GOAT, you just have to accept that I could do the same for 4-5 other players. But while my argument is towards MJ here, if you want to bring up a comparison to another GOAT candidate, I'll gladly welcome it and we can see if Jordan bests them in that area or not. Jordan bests most NBA players in a few categories. I'm no hater. I just like to analyze without emotion. Let's analyze this discussion, and leave the emotion out of it.

So, what is your beef?

 

[Ojb81]

Shut up, you

 

[Jordan23]

Hard to take many of those points. He did t win cause he had a shitty team full of tomato cans. The east was loaded and his teams were not which negates half your points. He never averaged over 30 shot for a season ever. And the argument against him shooting a lot. Dude averaged 50% from the field as a SG. How many all time great guards do that. Dude was clutch and won when it counted when he actually got some teammates who were worth a shit around him. If he had any of those lakers, Celtics, pistons squads he would have dominated.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Hard to take many of those points.

I’d imagine it would be if you’re an MJ devotee

He did t win cause he had a shitty team full of tomato cans. The east was loaded and his teams were not which negates half your points.

Which points does your vague ambiguous claim negate?

He never averaged over 30 shot for a season ever.

He routinely shot over 30 attempts per game.

And the argument against him shooting a lot. Dude averaged 50% from the field as a SG. How many all time great guards do that.

Oh stop the excuses. We’re talking GOAT here. If you’re going to exalt Jordan for his scoring, you have to bring up that he shot way more than anyone else. He wasn’t always efficient

Dude was clutch and won when it counted when he actually got some teammates who were worth a shit around him. If he had any of those lakers, Celtics, pistons squads he would have dominated.

You can write your own fiction, that’s fine. It seems like you carefully skimmed over the top and didn’t want to address much of the holes in MJ’s GOAT argument

 

[Shanemansj13]

I have no idea why this NBA GOAT debate has become so polarizing, but it has. It's largely a foolish endeavor, as different generations have different factors, and trying to compare directly is pretty much impossible. But, we do it, and while I try to generally avoid it, I'll do it here.

My only ask is that for anyone who replies to make any counterpoints in a debate style format. If your response is "OMG if u don't think Jordan is the GOAT u don't know basketball"... just stay out of it. I'll make specific points, and those are what need to be addressed. Also, let me just say that I can can make cases for and against MJ, just as I can with Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc. All contenders have weaknesses, this is not an NHL-Gretzky dynamic where there's one undeniable GOAT.

So, Here's my reasons why MJ isn't the GOAT. I welcome any respectful, thoughtful rebuttals, because like I said, I can make a case for Jordan as well.

1. He didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year in the league, and his early playoff appearances were filled with being dominated and swept out of the playoffs.

2. While he scored a lot, he shot a lot, more than anyone in NBA history. He would routinely shoot 30 plus shots a game, especially in his early years. He wasn't an efficient scorer much of the time, and while he had springs like noone else, he had no long jumper or 3 point presence (not that the 3 was used as a threat then anyways)

3. The entire league went through the 80's, not just MJ. I get tired of hearing about the over-hyped "Jordan rules", and how the Pistons were just so mean to him, and only him. No. The Pistons laid everyone out.. Bird, Barkley, Magic, Isaiah, etc. ... and Jordan lost to the Pistons again, and again, and again. Throughout the 80's, Jordan had his absolutely spurts of greatness (look at any Cavs vs Bulls series in the 80's), but also had plenty of duds and chokes in pivotal games. The whole "Michael would have made it" mantra is a mythology created by Gen X ESPN fan boys who bought the Nike/NBA/ESPN dogma.

4. Jordan was given a head start as far as traveling and fouls once he was crowned as the golden boy by the league, Nike, and sports media. He was the first guy who was allowed extra steps, and the first to play Harden-style ball who relied on getting the call from the ref.

5. Jordan didn't win when other 80's golden-era superstars were in their prime. Bird, Magic, and Isaiah all dominated MJ and the Bulls. The 90's bulls flourished as the league's greatest teams aged. Back then, being over 30 was old, as modern training techniques weren't being implemented. The 1990 Bulls faced a washed up Magic Lakers team that had cobwebs.

6. Jordan's Bulls didn't reach the next level until Scottie Pippen elevated and Phil Jackson (The coaching GOAT) joined him. MJ needed them to become dominant as a team. Phil Jackson is the pivotal piece. Not only did he bring the bulls from a minimal playoff team to a 3-peat champion in Chicago (twice), but then he did it again in LA.. and realize, Shaq and Kobe were bounced out of the playoffs early multiple times in the late 90's before Phil Jackson arrived and suddenly the Lakers were unstoppable. That's a check against Jordan.

7. Jordan didn't face intense all-time competition at the shooting guard position. I admit, you can say that's a testament to Jordan, but you can also at the same time admit that the other Superstars in the league were either PG's (Magic, Stockton, Isaiah), forwards (Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Bird) or Centers (Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing). The list of Shooting guards that guarded or were guarded by Jordan involves perhaps Drexler and Reggie Miller (who often owned MJ), but beyond that you have Joe Dumars, Byron Scott, Jeff Hornacek, Ron Harper, Dan Majarle, Rickey Pierce, John Starks, Steve Smith... let's be real, it was the position that had the least amount of greatness around an all-time great player.

8. Jordan's Bulls finals opponents were generally weak all time. The 1990 Lakers were ancient, the 91 Blazers had reached a finals previously.. but while they had a very solid lineup (Terry Porter, Drexler, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams, Kevin Duckworth).. nobody is calling them much. The best team the bulls beat was probably the Suns in 92-93, but that was just a prime MVP Charles Barkley with smaller factors like Kevin Johnson, Dan Majarle, etc. The 96 Sonics with Kemp and Payton weren't anything all-time (Payton guarded Jordan well), and the Jazz had Stockton Malone, but beyond that were completely outmatched by a superior supporting Bulls cast (Kukoc, Rodman, Harper, etc.)

9. PIVOTAL POINT: After MJ retired for the first time after their 57-25 1992-93 Season, Jackson, Pippen, and others stayed... and the next season without MJ they went 55-27. That's a mic drop. Right there, that proves that while the Bulls likely needed MJ to put them over the top, MJ did not account for high level success of the Chicago Bulls. Jordan was a finisher, but many other players in the GOAT conversation accounted for far more wins than MJ did for his team.

10. While the MJ Establishment likes to forget this, it's true Jordan had an amazing comeback at the end of the 1994-95 season, but he gagged away the series by carelessly choking up the basketball in the final seconds as the bulls lost to the Magic. Many people don't even know that happened, because so many Jordan fans pretend Jordan's career was 6 years long plus the 63 point double OT loss to the Celtics.

11. Even in major NBA Finals moments, Jordan had plenty of moments where he gagged away last second shots. It's only the mythology that makes you think he "would have made" any clutch shot. Here's a few Just in the finals, not the whole playoffs:
- 1990 Game 1 the Lakers are up 92-91 with 9 seconds left, Chicago inbounds to Jordan who pulls up at 18 feet and misses/chokes. Loss.
- 1992 Game 2 the Blazers tied with 12 seconds left, Jordan walks the ball up and shoots with 2 sec left and bricks it, choking.
- 1997 Game 4 The Jazz are up 76-73 with 10 sec left, Jordan shoots a fadeaway 3 and chokes, jazz win.
- 1998 Game 5 The Jazz are up with 0.8 sec left, Jordan gets a good look on a catch and shoot and misses, another "choke".

12. And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.

From my experience, there are MJ fans (disciples) who take such critique very seriously. Let me again say, I could lay out an argument FOR MJ being the GOAT, you just have to accept that I could do the same for 4-5 other players. But while my argument is towards MJ here, if you want to bring up a comparison to another GOAT candidate, I'll gladly welcome it and we can see if Jordan bests them in that area or not. Jordan bests most NBA players in a few categories. I'm no hater. I just like to analyze without emotion. Let's analyze this discussion, and leave the emotion out of it.

So, what is your beef?

Case closed. Well said

 

[Wamu]

I’d imagine it would be if you’re an MJ devotee

Which points does your vague ambiguous claim negate?

He routinely shot over 30 attempts per game. <-----------------------------------------------

Oh stop the excuses. We’re talking GOAT here. If you’re going to exalt Jordan for his scoring, you have to bring up that he shot way more than anyone else. He wasn’t always efficient

You can write your own fiction, that’s fine. It seems like you carefully skimmed over the top and didn’t want to address much of the holes in MJ’s GOAT argument

Failed troll attempt.

MJ's career high for shots per game was 27.8 during the 1986-87 season.

Now go away since you're wrong.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Hard to take many of those points. He did t win cause he had a shitty team full of tomato cans. The east was loaded and his teams were not which negates half your points. He never averaged over 30 shot for a season ever. And the argument against him shooting a lot. Dude averaged 50% from the field as a SG. How many all time great guards do that. Dude was clutch and won when it counted when he actually got some teammates who were worth a shit around him. If he had any of those lakers, Celtics, pistons squads he would have dominated.

Awful points. How can I tell?

30 shots a game? Are you for real? This is one of your sticking points lol

Clutch, sure he was and so was Lebron. Look up the stats they are neck and neck. People that say he isn’t clutch need to do their HW. Kobe made big shots but his clutch stars are much worse then both of these guys, for example.
Lebron took a 20 win team to the Finals. Go look at the roster. I know, it will shock you.

MJ in the playoffs never beat Magic or Bird in their prime. He got dominated by bad boy pistons. All those teams fell off. If they didn’t? We are writing a different story. He couldn’t beat the best in his era but at least he took down Kemp and the Jazz. I’ll give him that

 

[Shanemansj13]

Failed troll attempt.

MJ's career high for shots per game was 27.8 during the 1986-87 season.

Now go away since you're wrong.

I didn’t see him mention 30 shots per game but I guess I assumed that was meant game to game. Either way he had a high FG % just like Lebron. Both are very efficient

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Failed troll attempt.

MJ's career high for shots per game was 27.8 during the 1986-87 season.

Now go away since you're wrong.

Do you know what an average is? I never said he averaged 30, I said he often shot over 30, especially early in his career.

Get it now?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

MJ in the playoffs never beat Magic or Bird in their prime. He got dominated by bad boy pistons. All those teams fell off. If they didn’t? We are writing a different story. He couldn’t beat the best in his era but at least he took down Kemp and the Jazz. I’ll give him that

The Jordan-Bulls resume of teams they beat in the Finals is pretty unimpressive as far as a dynasty goes.

Magic and Bird had to beat each other
Lebron had to deal with the Spurs and Warriors
Jordan and the Bulls never had to beat another prime championship team. It’s too bad Houston fell off, Houston had Chicagos number, they’d have won 2 championships even if MJ didn’t leave

 

[Wamu]

Do you know what an average is? I never said he averaged 30, I said he often shot over 30, especially early in his career.

Get it now?

Okay fair enough. My bad on that.

I wonder of the times he took 30 shots in a game how many of those were before Pippen got there? Gotta remember MJ didn't have much of supporting cast early in his career.

To me you singling out how many times he took 30 shots is nitpicking. You're look for a reason to find a flaw in his game.

 

[Wamu]

I didn’t see him mention 30 shots per game but I guess I assumed that was meant game to game. Either way he had a high FG % just like Lebron. Both are very efficient

Yep like I told him my bad. Misread it.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Okay fair enough. My bad on that.

I wonder of the times he took 30 shots in a game how many of those were before Pippen got there? Gotta remember MJ didn't have much of supporting cast early in his career.

To me you singling out how many times he took 30 shots is nitpicking. You're look for a reason to find a flaw in his game.

Well, if people are going to glorify his tons of 40 point games, it’s accurate to see if it was an efficient 40 or even a harmful 40. He would score 35 on 9-30 shooting. MJ fans are like “he dropped 35!!”… I’m like “he selfishly killed his team”… sometimes Mike was efficient and all time great. Other times? Not so much

 

[Wamu]

Well, if people are going to glorify his tons of 40 point games, it’s accurate to see if it was an efficient 40 or even a harmful 40. He would score 35 on 9-30 shooting. MJ fans are like “he dropped 35!!”… I’m like “he selfishly killed his team”… (1)sometimes Mike was efficient and all time great. Other times? Not so much

So you mentioned him taking 30 shots a game.

You still wanna complain about it while at the same time not taking into consideration at what point during his career did he take that many shots? Because I'd be willing to bet the vast majority happened early in his career when the Bulls were getting beat up by the more experienced Pistons and Celtics.

You have to put your gripe into context. Doubt MJ had many 30 shot games in the 90's.

1. Come on man get a grip on reality. No superstar in any sport was on each and every game of their careers. Even the all time greats have off nights.

 

[Jiddy]

12. And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.

I don't really have the patience to address the entirety of this horribly biased thread/post...but I will address this because it is so f*cking bad.

Michael Jordan's father was missing for two weeks (an entire manhunt for him was going on) and found murdered in a swamp shortly after the 1993 championship. A couple months later MJ walked away because (apparently this is going to be a "Hello McFly" moment for OP) sometimes sh*t just matters less when you are grieving and your father was murdered, missing and left dead in a swamp.

"He can have his reasons, but...."

Jesus f*cking Christ.

 

[trojanfan12]

To me you singling out how many times he took 30 shots is nitpicking. You're look for a reason to find a flaw in his game.

To be fair, that's exactly what the MJ apologists do re: Lebron...that's why they always have to try to use dumb shit like afraid to take clutch shots/he flops/plays in a soft era, etc.

Stats don't fit their narrative, so they nitpick on things that can't be proven.

 

[Jiddy]

Ah f*ck I just realized the OP is a bot.

Well done bot...You got me.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Ah f*ck I just realized the OP is a bot.

Well done bot...You got me.

I am? Wow.. that’s news to my wife and kids lol

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I don't really have the patience to address the entirety of this horribly biased thread/post...but I will address this because it is so f*cking bad.

It’s not much to read, but if you're scared, I guess that’s on you l

Michael Jordan's father was missing for two weeks (an entire manhunt for him was going on) and found murdered in a swamp shortly after the 1993 championship. A couple months later MJ walked away because (apparently this is going to be a "Hello McFly" moment for OP) sometimes sh*t just matters less when you are grieving and your father was murdered, missing and left dead in a swamp.

"He can have his reasons, but...."

Jesus f*cking Christ.

You’d have a point if he didn’t go right out and play baseball, which he did

And it’s likely Jordan’s gambling got his dad killed. We know this.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't really have the patience to address the entirety of this horribly biased thread/post...but I will address this because it is so f*cking bad.

Michael Jordan's father was missing for two weeks (an entire manhunt for him was going on) and found murdered in a swamp shortly after the 1993 championship. A couple months later MJ walked away because (apparently this is going to be a "Hello McFly" moment for OP) sometimes sh*t just matters less when you are grieving and your father was murdered, missing and left dead in a swamp.

"He can have his reasons, but...."

Jesus f*cking Christ.

You're forgetting a few details.

1.) There is speculation that MJ's father was killed because of his (MJ's) gambling. Obviously, speculation is not fact or proof...but MJ is/was known to be not only a big gambler...but wasn't exactly the GOAT at it. It's also been said that he, at least at the time, wasn't exactly "timely" about paying his gambling debts.

2.) There is also speculation that his first "retirement" was actually a suspension, but they called it a "retirement" because of his stature and how bad a look having their best, most popular player mixed up in a gambling scandal would be. Again, speculation is not proof, but again, we know how big a gambler MJ is/was.

3.) The story presented at the time was that he "retired" and went to play professional baseball because it was his dad's favorite sport and he wanted to honor him. That story was always considered suspect, especially when you consider he didn't put real effort into it.

I get it...for MJ apologists, Lebron is the first real threat to MJ's perceived "GOAT status"...so y'all are using anything you can to try to disparage Lebron because the actual numbers show that, at the least, Lebron should be solidly in the GOAT conversation...if not considered the GOAT.

And for the record, I don't consider MJ or Lebron to be the GOAT, at least not by themselves...I have 3 in the GOAT convo (MJ, Lebron and Kareem).