The 2023-2024 NBA Season

[tlance]

I think we all have eyes, to me that’s my decider. I know what I saw. Now the people that didn’t see MJ night after night can’t possibly be coming from the same place.

I would bet just about anything I watched more MJ games than you did.

WGN every night they were on.

 

[Wamu]

Go back watch LeBron lose in the finals to a decrepit Mavs team and tell me again how LeBron was playing against better talent than MJ. A Mavs team who went a combined 1-6 in playoff series in the 4 years previous AND the 4 years subsequent to that title year combined.

Let's not compare the NBA NOW to what it was just 10 short years ago. NBA has really made quite the jump in the last 5-6 years. The Golden State years will be seen as starting a new era of NBA basketball.

HOFers MJ played against in the Finals. Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Drexler, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Gary Payton.

HOFers LeBron has played against in the Finals. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker (Kawhi is also a HOFer), Dirk, Jason Kidd, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Steph, Klay, Draymond, Jimmy Buckets (wouldn't be surprised if Bam goes to the HOF too)

 

[fightinfunbags]

Most of us saw both MJ and LeBron with our own eyes too dude.

Yeah. I lean MJ but I think the debate is close. I think they’re difficult to compare because they have entirely different games.

 

[trojanfan12]

I think we're saying he didn't become the GOAT legend until the competition was weaker. In the LeBron vs MJ debate, the toughness of their opponents should be a factor.

And still has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[tlance]

Always like when someone has something to say that really doesn't follow the NBA.

HOFers MJ played against in the Finals. Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Drexler, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Gary Payton.

HOFers LeBron has played against in the Finals. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker (Kawhi is also a HOFer), Dirk, Jason Kidd, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Steph, Klay, Draymond, Jimmy Buckets (wouldn't be surprised if Bam goes to the HOF too)

Haters will always hate.

And…

MJ and LeBron each faced 5 different teams I think in those Finals.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah. I lean MJ but I think the debate is close. I think they’re difficult to compare because they have entirely different games.

It's about as close as can be. All of these debates are 'difficult' and to be honest impossible to 'prove'. The arguing is the point, it reveals what you personally value more.

One can make a very good case for either one, and both cases are correct. In the end I always fall back on saying you can't truly pick ONE all time great...too many variables (different teammates, eras, positions, rules, coaches, opponents, etc). All you can really do is say these 4-5 guys were the best that ever was.

 

[Wamu]

And…

MJ and LeBron each faced 5 different teams I think in those Finals.

I always enjoy people trying to belittle LeBron's unmatched career.

He's even somehow surpassed all the crazy expectations that were put on him when he got the league.

 

[thunderc]

Most of us saw both MJ and LeBron with our own eyes too dude.

And I didn’t say you didn’t, dude

 

[thunderc]

I would bet just about anything I watched more MJ games than you did.

WGN every night they were on.

I really don’t care if you did, I saw what I saw.

 

[tlance]

I really don’t care if you did, I saw what I saw.

Awesome.

Your comments imply that people you are talking to didn’t watch him.

That isn’t the case.

Nobody here was a bigger MJ fan than I was.

But I am also able to look back objectively and see his flaws.

Most people who don’t give any room for LeBron in the debate (not saying you) are irrational with their MJ takes.

 

[bksballer89]

Awesome.

Your comments imply that people you are talking to didn’t watch him.

That isn’t the case.

Nobody here was a bigger MJ fan than I was.

But I am also able to look back objectively and see his flaws.

Most people who don’t give any room for LeBron in the debate (not saying you) are irrational with their MJ takes.

He sounds like Stephen A Smith

 

[ducky]

Meh you are using one year-one series as an example. Yeah lets use data from the previous four years to try to deflect on how great that Mavs team really was...teams can never turn a corner according to you. It was similar to the Spurs team that played ridiculous team defense and offense except the Spurs team had more future HOFr's.

If you have to go back 14 years to find one series then you are in denial.

There is without a doubt more talent now simply due to international players and that doesn't account for players, coaches, training, analytical data, etc. evolving in general. One simple example - players back in the day did not have to defend the 3 ball like they did today with sharpshooters all over the court. 7 footers shooting 40%.
Tell me baseball hasn't evolved in the last 40 years...you would be wrong there too. Every other BP guy is throwing 95+.

Of course it has evolved. But all the benefits you are describing are also benefits that Lebron gets to take advantage of too.

Jordan would have LOVED to see wide open lanes against defenses that literally dont have a rim defender on the court. And you couldn't hand check him on the way to the hole.

When you are talking about better competition, you are also talking about better teammates too. Jordan in the last run played most of his minutes with Rodman and Luc Longley both on the court at the same time. There was ZERO spacing on the interior. Jordan had to play from the mid range. It is LAUGHABLE to think what Leborn would look like in that situation especially over the first half of his career.

 

[ducky]

HOFers MJ played against in the Finals. Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Drexler, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Gary Payton.

HOFers LeBron has played against in the Finals. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker (Kawhi is also a HOFer), Dirk, Jason Kidd, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Steph, Klay, Draymond, Jimmy Buckets (wouldn't be surprised if Bam goes to the HOF too)

Now count the HOF players LeBron played with and the ones Jordan played with.

 

[tlance]

Now count the HOF players LeBron played with and the ones Jordan played with.

Of course more.

He played on 4 teams.

How many of those HOF teammates are going to be there because of their stints with LeBron?

Wade the only one who is definitely HOF worthy on his own. Everyone else is debatable or no.

Rodman and Pippen probably get in without MJ.

 

[thunderc]

Awesome.

Your comments imply that people you are talking to didn’t watch him.

That isn’t the case.

Nobody here was a bigger MJ fan than I was.

But I am also able to look back objectively and see his flaws.

Most people who don’t give any room for LeBron in the debate (not saying you) are irrational with their MJ takes.

Yeah people are entitled to their opinions. I watched MJ every night too. I’m not a Lebron hater and I certainly respect what he is doing now at his age. To me the goat is not a longevity thing though. Sure you had to have played enough to be in the conversation, but to me the goat is who was the best at their best. Period, that’s it for me. And I think it is a 3 person contest, Kareem deserves more mention than he gets.

 

[Pastafazul]

Mike Connelly, good dude!

Just confirmed what I thought after seeing Anthony Edward’s for the first time


A young Michael Jordan.

Good call again Tlance on your call about him, oyyyyyy

 

[trojanfan12]

I always enjoy people trying to belittle LeBron's unmatched career.

He's even somehow surpassed all the crazy expectations that were put on him when he got the league.

That's what's amazing. I can't think of a player that had more hype around him entering the league....maaaaaybe Magic, but even then...the NBA wasn't as huge as when Lebron came in...and he has surpassed that hype.

Hell, the way he's playing now...at 39 is about the level of the hype when he came in.

So he's had to have age diminish his skills to play down to the level of hype when he came in. That's just insane. lol

 

[fightinfunbags]

That's what's amazing. I can't think of a player that had more hype around him entering the league....maaaaaybe Magic, but even then...the NBA wasn't as huge as when Lebron came in...and he has surpassed that hype.

Hell, the way he's playing now...at 39 is about the level of the hype when he came in.

So he's had to have age diminish his skills to play down to the level of hype when he came in. That's just insane. lol

Very true. It’s a different sport but the comparative in baseball would be Bryce Harper. Harper has been very good but he has no rings and he has been less in his sport than LeBron has been in basketball.

 

[tlance]

Mike Connelly, good dude!

Just confirmed what I thought after seeing Anthony Edward’s for the first time


A young Michael Jordan.

Good call again Tlance on your call about him, oyyyyyy

Man, I must really be in your head. You talk about me almost as much as you talk about the Knicks.

My call on him?

That he isn’t a superstar yet?

Fact.

Trending that way. Could be there are this year’s playoffs.

You singling me out when literally nobody had Ant as a superstar. Didn’t even make the list for voting in the thread. Twolves fan didn’t even have him as one.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah people are entitled to their opinions. I watched MJ every night too. I’m not a Lebron hater and I certainly respect what he is doing now at his age. To me the goat is not a longevity thing though. Sure you had to have played enough to be in the conversation, but to me the goat is who was the best at their best. Period, that’s it for me. And I think it is a 3 person contest, Kareem deserves more mention than he gets.

Yeah, I've come around on the GOAT convo. I can remember when I had him at like 4th or 5th, now I have logjam of him, Kareem and MJ. lol