POLL SUN 11/12 1:00 PM EST Texans @ Cincy

[cincygrad]

True.

Last time a QB/WR combo was that special in college together was Burrow/Chase/Jefferson.

Stroud/Harrison Jr. was a very special combination. Then you add in the year Stroud had Olave, Garrett, Harrison Jr., Smith-Njigba. That is insane. There is no reason we shouldn't have won the NC that year, we even had a decent defense.

It hurts my soul that you refer to OSU as 'we.' I like you Crash - I just wish you weren't a damn Buckeye. LOL.

 

[cincygrad]

Speaking of Carolina, there's a chance the Bears might have Caleb Williams throwing passes to DJ Moore and Marvin Harrison Jr next season because of that trade. Crazy stuff.

Ben Johnson is getting all the hype as the Head Coach candidate of the 24 ( and rightfully so) but Bobby Slowik has to be next to the list. For an OC with a rookie QB and first year HC to be leading this type of offense is impressive.

Slowik is doing it with a bunch of rookies and spare parts. As bad as the Bengals looked yesterday on D, a lot of it was just good offense. That same Bengals D looked damn good for long stretches against SF and Buffalo over the last couple weeks. The Texans didn't allow pressures, CJ worked the middle of the field and they destroyed us in the run game. They also beat the crap out of Pittsburgh even though they had injuries to their line. Super impressed by that team.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Offense continues to stagnant more than it should.

I'm not saying Mixon is the problem, or that the running game is the answer...but....Mixon has actually ran pretty well the since the bye. The run game has been...not called upon. Mixon got 4 runs in the 1st two drives. Got 2 more carries the rest of the half...I think 5 drives.

Going into the 4th quarter, I think Mixon had 7 or 8 rushes. Several of them 5+ yards.

After debuting the 10 personnel and passing/running out of it often against SF...I've barely seen it, and it's has almost been used exclusively in obvious run situations with less PA/passing out of it these past 3 weeks combined than it was in SF.

I'll continue to say this because it's true. No one gets less out of more than Taylor as an offensive play caller. I understand that this is an pass 1st and pass often offense, but running it 8 times through 3 quarters is putting the offense, and the QB, in dire situations and is much easier to force errant plays/passes when having to continually throw against 8 defenders for 9-10-11 play drives because teams are not allowing deep plays to develop (outside of scramble drills that don't count since they are broken plays).

 

[cincygrad]

Offense continues to stagnant more than it should.

I'm not saying Mixon is the problem, or that the running game is the answer...but....Mixon has actually ran pretty well the since the bye. The run game has been...not called upon. Mixon got 4 runs in the 1st two drives. Got 2 more carries the rest of the half...I think 5 drives.

Going into the 4th quarter, I think Mixon had 7 or 8 rushes. Several of them 5+ yards.

After debuting the 10 personnel and passing/running out of it often against SF...I've barely seen it, and it's has almost been used exclusively in obvious run situations with less PA/passing out of it these past 3 weeks combined than it was in SF.

I'll continue to say this because it's true. No one gets less out of more than Taylor as an offensive play caller. I understand that this is an pass 1st and pass often offense, but running it 8 times through 3 quarters is putting the offense, and the QB, in dire situations and is much easier to force errant plays/passes when having to continually throw against 8 defenders for 9-10-11 play drives because teams are not allowing deep plays to develop (outside of scramble drills that don't count since they are broken plays).

Was listening to a podcast yesterday and some of the early runs to Mixon should have been much bigger producers based on the look. But yeah, it's pretty clear that Zac abandoned the run too early in that game. It also was alarming to see Cappa get manhandled all day by Rankins. Cappa might not be elite, but he's normally are most consistent dude.

Regardless of the reason, this offense continues to be held back. At what point can we expect this group to be able to shoot it out with teams that are having success against our D? Can we ever?

 

[Cincyfan78]

Was listening to a podcast yesterday and some of the early runs to Mixon should have been much bigger producers based on the look. But yeah, it's pretty clear that Zac abandoned the run too early in that game. It also was alarming to see Cappa get manhandled all day by Rankins. Cappa might not be elite, but he's normally are most consistent dude.

Regardless of the reason, this offense continues to be held back. At what point can we expect this group to be able to shoot it out with teams that are having success against our D? Can we ever?

Certainly would have helped if three things were true:

1 - Chase was 100% healthy.
2 - Higgins was 100% healthy.
3 - Boyd makes those catches.


But...those are the things that teams face through he season. Down play. Injuries. Have to find ways to overcome, and that is where "normally" I think Lou does well, but Taylor has always struggled.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The amount of times I watch this offense line up in a formation that brings 8-9 defenders in the box, and they still run it right into the teeth of the defense is maddening.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I'd also like to point out that games like this happen...even to the best teams. IT's why starting 1-3 absolutely F'n matters...despite what Taylor may think.

You can't rely on going 1-3 every year, and then reeling off 10-11 wins, maybe only losing to a top tier team that doesn't affect much (a KC or in the past Buff). Eventually, a team jumps up and bites you in the ass...and when they do, starting 1-3 makes it all that much worse.

For all intent and purpose, the AFCN is on the line Thursday night. Playoffs are still in reach regardless of the outcome with so much left to play, but if the Bengals are targeting the AFCN crown...it has to start on Thursday, and carry through the following week against Pitt. No if and or buts about it...they have to get to 2-0 over the next 2 weeks.

 

[jbuck]

frankly KC and balt scare me but meh to the rest in the AFC. oh well not the way I pictured this year

 

[cincygrad]

I'd also like to point out that games like this happen...even to the best teams. IT's why starting 1-3 absolutely F'n matters...despite what Taylor may think.

You can't rely on going 1-3 every year, and then reeling off 10-11 wins, maybe only losing to a top tier team that doesn't affect much (a KC or in the past Buff). Eventually, a team jumps up and bites you in the ass...and when they do, starting 1-3 makes it all that much worse.

For all intent and purpose, the AFCN is on the line Thursday night. Playoffs are still in reach regardless of the outcome with so much left to play, but if the Bengals are targeting the AFCN crown...it has to start on Thursday, and carry through the following week against Pitt. No if and or buts about it...they have to get to 2-0 over the next 2 weeks.

I think people are overreacting to the loss against the Texans. It was a classic trap game. The Bengals came off a 2-game run after the bye against impressive competition in games they could have won by multiple touchdowns. One on the west coast and one on SNF. They had Baltimore on the schedule for the Thursday night game after the game against the Texans. If this wasn't the ultimate trap game, I don't know what is. Compounding things was that Chase's injury made them abandon all the motion and looks that were working during the win streak. They went back to the toilet plunger offense where the D knows what is coming every time and we just keep running into walls or throwing into tight traffic near the line. And, the Texans are good.... Better than folks think. They have the juice to win their division and make noise in the playoffs. That team is legit. Perfect recipe for a loss.

Starting off 1-3 probably ruined our chances for the division. These things happen. And, we are in a tough spot for tomorrow's game. But, look at the big picture. Even if the Bengals lose tomorrow, they still have a great chance at the playoffs if they can beat Pittsburgh twice. Ask Pittsburgh fans about how confident they are in their ability to beat us. And now Cleveland is in serious trouble without a QB.

And don't get me started on the other teams in the AFC. Miami hasn't beaten anyone with a winning record. The Chiefs are limited offensively for the first time in Mahomes career. The Ravens are the most complete team and we already know how much Harbaugh enjoys fucking up the 4th quarter. Does anyone trust that team?

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think people are overreacting to the loss against the Texans. It was a classic trap game. The Bengals came off a 2-game run after the bye against impressive competition in games they could have won by multiple touchdowns. One on the west coast and one on SNF. They had Baltimore on the schedule for the Thursday night game after the game against the Texans. If this wasn't the ultimate trap game, I don't know what is. Compounding things was that Chase's injury made them abandon all the motion and looks that were working during the win streak. They went back to the toilet plunger offense where the D knows what is coming every time and we just keep running into walls or throwing into tight traffic near the line. And, the Texans are good.... Better than folks think. They have the juice to win their division and make noise in the playoffs. That team is legit. Perfect recipe for a loss.

Starting off 1-3 probably ruined our chances for the division. These things happen. And, we are in a tough spot for tomorrow's game. But, look at the big picture. Even if the Bengals lose tomorrow, they still have a great chance at the playoffs if they can beat Pittsburgh twice. Ask Pittsburgh fans about how confident they are in their ability to beat us. And now Cleveland is in serious trouble without a QB.

And don't get me started on the other teams in the AFC. Miami hasn't beaten anyone with a winning record. The Chiefs are limited offensively for the first time in Mahomes career. The Ravens are the most complete team and we already know how much Harbaugh enjoys fucking up the 4th quarter. Does anyone trust that team?

I think it sucks because it was both sides of the ball falling apart.

Again, though, this is why I can't stand Taylor's laissez faire approach to the 1st quarter of the season. You can't rely on not slipping up here or there...and when you are basically forfeiting 2 or 3 of the first 4 games every year...if the rest of the season doesn't go as hoped, you are in a fight for your life to win the Division (which should be the 1st goal on the way to winning the Super Bowl). Even if the goal was just to make the playoffs...losing 3 of the 4 to start the season impacts that as well. Especially as they are Conference games that go towards tie-breakers. Bengals are just 1-4 in conference thanks to losing right off the bat to Cleveland, Baltimore, and then Tenn in week 4.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I think it sucks because it was both sides of the ball falling apart.

Again, though, this is why I can't stand Taylor's laissez faire approach to the 1st quarter of the season. You can't rely on not slipping up here or there...and when you are basically forfeiting 2 or 3 of the first 4 games every year...if the rest of the season doesn't go as hoped, you are in a fight for your life to win the Division (which should be the 1st goal on the way to winning the Super Bowl). Even if the goal was just to make the playoffs...losing 3 of the 4 to start the season impacts that as well. Especially as they are Conference games that go towards tie-breakers. Bengals are just 1-4 in conference thanks to losing right off the bat to Cleveland, Baltimore, and then Tenn in week 4.

I will defend Taylor to this affect though, if he can keep Burrow fucking healthy and get him participating in training camp, and some preseason...we would be better prepared to start fast. You don't even have to give Burrow many snaps in the preseason, but getting him in a weekly routine once the preseason begins, that would go a long ways. This year, they are calling plays that don't require Burrow to drop back, move or do anything that Burrow normally does. So when you tear up half your playbook to accommodate your injured QB that insists on playing through an injury, this is where you start.

The only thing I blame Taylor for right now besides not give his starting unit more preseason snaps, is not being the leader and telling his multi-million dollar QB...you sit, I want a starting QB I am not worried about getting hurt worse, and able to run my whole playbook. Browning should have been the starter the first 2-3 weeks.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I will defend Taylor to this affect though, if he can keep Burrow fucking healthy and get him participating in training camp, and some preseason...we would be better prepared to start fast. You don't even have to give Burrow many snaps in the preseason, but getting him in a weekly routine once the preseason begins, that would go a long ways. This year, they are calling plays that don't require Burrow to drop back, move or do anything that Burrow normally does. So when you tear up half your playbook to accommodate your injured QB that insists on playing through an injury, this is where you start.

The only thing I blame Taylor for right now besides not give his starting unit more preseason snaps, is not being the leader and telling his multi-million dollar QB...you sit, I want a starting QB I am not worried about getting hurt worse, and able to run my whole playbook. Browning should have been the starter the first 2-3 weeks.

Right. Last year there were 4 new OL - zero snaps in pre-season. Think that could have helped Burrow, or the run game in the early going?

This year...2 new starters (Williams new to RT) and Burrow missing ALL of pre-season...think they could have gotten some run to either Help an immobile Burrow, or at least come up with a plan for the 1st two games without him?

I'm all for not getting into knee-jerk reactions and trying to change everything, but the overall approach to the start of the season sucks...with or without the Burrow injuries.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Right. Last year there were 4 new OL - zero snaps in pre-season. Think that could have helped Burrow, or the run game in the early going?

This year...2 new starters (Williams new to RT) and Burrow missing ALL of pre-season...think they could have gotten some run to either Help an immobile Burrow, or at least come up with a plan for the 1st two games without him?

I'm all for not getting into knee-jerk reactions and trying to change everything, but the overall approach to the start of the season sucks...with or without the Burrow injuries.

I'm with you. However, we are seeing some of Taylor's inexperience here too. He is prepared to have this overhauled playbook, they have a lot of things they can do to open things up, then your QB is out all of camp yet again. Now you are teetering on, is my QB going to play, should I sit him in favor of a healthy guy that run the whole playbook, or play the injured QB that cuts my book in half, but you trust him because he is your golden ticket to a 15 year career as a head coach for the Cincinnati Bengals? Taylor sometimes struggles at game management, he reads into analytics too hard, and he doesn't "feel" the game at times. He relies on stats instead of his gut and the feel of the game at hand.

I do think he has gotten better at that as time goes on, and I think he will get better at the offensive play calling with moving guys around and crating mismatches.

I do agree he needs to do more in preseason with his starters, but you have to be gun shy when your multi-million dollar QB hasn't seen a full preseason in his career due to crazy shit happening (COVID, ACL, Appendix, Calf Strain). If Taylor had a more healthy history of preseason, maybe he wouldn't be gun shy. Maybe he would still, I don't know. Maybe his thought is, get all my stars to the regular season before I open them up to injury so the fans fill the seats and hope they can get it right quick.

I don't know what the thought process is, but a healthy Burrow all through the summer and preseason could possibly change his mind about some of this stuff. Maybe if we had enough depth, he wouldn't be so afraid to play some of his starters during the preseason.

1. Healthy Burrow
2. Better depth

 

[Cincyfan78]

I'm with you. However, we are seeing some of Taylor's inexperience here too. He is prepared to have this overhauled playbook, they have a lot of things they can do to open things up, then your QB is out all of camp yet again. Now you are teetering on, is my QB going to play, should I sit him in favor of a healthy guy that run the whole playbook, or play the injured QB that cuts my book in half, but you trust him because he is your golden ticket to a 15 year career as a head coach for the Cincinnati Bengals? Taylor sometimes struggles at game management, he reads into analytics too hard, and he doesn't "feel" the game at times. He relies on stats instead of his gut and the feel of the game at hand.

I do think he has gotten better at that as time goes on, and I think he will get better at the offensive play calling with moving guys around and crating mismatches.

I do agree he needs to do more in preseason with his starters, but you have to be gun shy when your multi-million dollar QB hasn't seen a full preseason in his career due to crazy shit happening (COVID, ACL, Appendix, Calf Strain). If Taylor had a more healthy history of preseason, maybe he wouldn't be gun shy. Maybe he would still, I don't know. Maybe his thought is, get all my stars to the regular season before I open them up to injury so the fans fill the seats and hope they can get it right quick.

I don't know what the thought process is, but a healthy Burrow all through the summer and preseason could possibly change his mind about some of this stuff. Maybe if we had enough depth, he wouldn't be so afraid to play some of his starters during the preseason.

1. Healthy Burrow
2. Better depth

Here's my issue with the "Taylor will get better"...we've been talking about the same issues for 3 years now. He'll have a game here, or there, where something is new...and then the other 85% of the games are the same old same old.

I get that Burrow being injured hurts the start of the season, but we are talking about 3 years, and 2 full off-seasons to implement new ideas, and a new identity on offense in so much that it doesn't lead to 1 TD, and then 5 straight punts, with 3 of those 3-outs. That should not be happening with Burrow at QB. He makes Irwin look like a Stud at WR, so we know it can be done despite some of the injuries...We ran 10 personnel probably 12-13 times against SF. Passed a ton out of it, keeping the defense off balance. Since then..I can recall 1-2 times that it's been run where it was a pass...it's barely been used except in short yardage/clear run situations. It seems like in a game where Mixon gets 12 carries, 4 or 5 come against a light box, which this year he seems to be doing really well, and then the rest all come in crap formations that see 9 guys in the box, and then we wonder why Mixon can't run the ball, or the OL can't block...it's madness.

I keep harping on the run game, because I feel that when that is an actual part of the offensive game plan, it opens up everything in the passing game and takes a HUGE load off Burrow to be perfect on nearly every drive that, currently, is requiring him to throw 10+ pass attempts on 11-12-13 play drives to score points...against defense that are, largely, lining up with light boxes - daring the Bengals to run the ball...and Taylor looks at that and turns his nose up at the run game and continues to pass, pass, pass.

I'm not saying this offense needs a 25+ a game RB...but you can't go into the 4th quarter of most games with your lead RB getting 8-10 carries against 30+ passes, and half of those carries coming in a goal-to-go, 3rd and 1, or 4th and 1 low YPC plays. That means in the other 35+ plays, there are just 4 or 5 run calls to 30+ pass calls. I mean, if I'm a defensive coordinator I know exactly what I'm choosing to do with my play calls...dare them to run, and dropping 7 and 8 every time with an occasional mixed in blitz...I wouldn't even look at Mixon.

 

[cincygrad]

Here's my issue with the "Taylor will get better"...we've been talking about the same issues for 3 years now. He'll have a game here, or there, where something is new...and then the other 85% of the games are the same old same old.

I get that Burrow being injured hurts the start of the season, but we are talking about 3 years, and 2 full off-seasons to implement new ideas, and a new identity on offense in so much that it doesn't lead to 1 TD, and then 5 straight punts, with 3 of those 3-outs. That should not be happening with Burrow at QB. He makes Irwin look like a Stud at WR, so we know it can be done despite some of the injuries...We ran 10 personnel probably 12-13 times against SF. Passed a ton out of it, keeping the defense off balance. Since then..I can recall 1-2 times that it's been run where it was a pass...it's barely been used except in short yardage/clear run situations. It seems like in a game where Mixon gets 12 carries, 4 or 5 come against a light box, which this year he seems to be doing really well, and then the rest all come in crap formations that see 9 guys in the box, and then we wonder why Mixon can't run the ball, or the OL can't block...it's madness.

I keep harping on the run game, because I feel that when that is an actual part of the offensive game plan, it opens up everything in the passing game and takes a HUGE load off Burrow to be perfect on nearly every drive that, currently, is requiring him to throw 10+ pass attempts on 11-12-13 play drives to score points...against defense that are, largely, lining up with light boxes - daring the Bengals to run the ball...and Taylor looks at that and turns his nose up at the run game and continues to pass, pass, pass.

I'm not saying this offense needs a 25+ a game RB...but you can't go into the 4th quarter of most games with your lead RB getting 8-10 carries against 30+ passes, and half of those carries coming in a goal-to-go, 3rd and 1, or 4th and 1 low YPC plays. That means in the other 35+ plays, there are just 4 or 5 run calls to 30+ pass calls. I mean, if I'm a defensive coordinator I know exactly what I'm choosing to do with my play calls...dare them to run, and dropping 7 and 8 every time with an occasional mixed in blitz...I wouldn't even look at Mixon.

I think you are right about the run game and I think this is a persistent issue on teams with good quarterbacks. Look at the Chiefs..... I don't think we stand any chance of beating them twice in one season (2021 season) if Andy Reid runs the football. In fact, the Bengals basically begged them to run in that playoff game and they wouldn't do it. Look at the Bills - They refused to develop a run game outside of Josh Allen taking off from the pocket and it has really limited them at various points in time. On the other hand, the Philly offense is mostly consistent and super explosive.... One of the reasons it's explosive is that teams absolutely have to stop their running game. This same thing is now happening in Baltimore - They've always been able to run, but they are now marrying it up with a good passing game. If they had our receivers, nobody could stop it.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think you are right about the run game and I think this is a persistent issue on teams with good quarterbacks. Look at the Chiefs..... I don't think we stand any chance of beating them twice in one season (2021 season) if Andy Reid runs the football. In fact, the Bengals basically begged them to run in that playoff game and they wouldn't do it. Look at the Bills - They refused to develop a run game outside of Josh Allen taking off from the pocket and it has really limited them at various points in time. On the other hand, the Philly offense is mostly consistent and super explosive.... One of the reasons it's explosive is that teams absolutely have to stop their running game. This same thing is now happening in Baltimore - They've always been able to run, but they are now marrying it up with a good passing game. If they had our receivers, nobody could stop it.

Bingo. Lou said as much after beating KC on the way to the SB...he knew they weren't going to stick with the run game...

You don't have to go to a 50/50 split, but I think right now it's 72/28 (485 total plays between attempts by Burrow and 137 rushes by Mixon). That works out to 28% rush calls to 72% pass calls...and doesn't include 30 rushes by Burrow in which, I'd say, at least 23-25 of them are runs that start off as passes and he takes off getting yards, so let's just assume that Burrow's pass attempts that turn into runs negate out for any of the backup RB's who get a carry (because, let's be honest...hardly anyone is getting any carries behind Mixon). So, 72%, nearly 75%, of plays called are passes. If you were to take out the 3rd and shorts, 4th and shorts, and goal-to-go under 3 yard runs...that means that (without looking this up) the rest of the offensive game plan is over 80% passing. Maybe higher?

Hell, Burrow came out of pre-season with no snaps, could barely move, looked AWFUL trying to throw the ball and Taylor had him drop back for 31, 41, and FOURTY NINE attempts in games 1-3....Maybe not unironically...Mixon's 3 highest carry games, STL, SF, Buff, Tenn...Bengals are 3-1...(25, 19, 14, 14).

I realize flow of the game and down/distance will play a role in calling plays, but in 6 of the 9 games, Mixon is averaging 12 carries a game. In those games the Bengals are 2-4. Again, not all on the offense, or run game....but the offense hasn't scored over 30 in any of those games, and has 2 games of just 3 points and another of 17.

Again - a long, long way of saying...they should run the ball not just "more" but find creative ways to get the runs they need against the looks that are BEGGING them to take advantage...

 

[jbuck]

When you can't get a 1st on 4th and 1, and have a weak running game in general, I'd say the OL needs to be better. of course we will try to run the ball anyway and waste some downs

 

[Cincyfan78]

When you can't get a 1st on 4th and 1, and have a weak running game in general, I'd say the OL needs to be better. of course we will try to run the ball anyway and waste some downs

Bengals do struggle in this area, but I think at least some of the issue is scheme related, more so than personnel related. Certainly, Mixon isn't always the hardest runner, or some guys not the best blockers...but when you are lining up 7 blockers against 9 defenders...you have to find ways to scheme gaps within the blocking.

It appears that most of those plays are simply slam plays, which isn't really to the benefit of the OL or the RB. Mixon has been much better at misdirection and cutting back. You could also force the defenses hand by spreading out wide...going 4 or even 5 wide, and letting burrow opt to pass/run himself (despite some people's resistance to Burrow running...right Cincygrad...LOL). But even with 4 wide, you can still go single back out of 10 personnel. Force the defense to either defend 4 WR, or leave someone like Chase 1-1 in defending the LOS against the run.

Maybe one issue with the run game is it simply doesn't get enough work throughout the game to continue to be effective. When 50% of the runs called are in the 1st two drives, and the running game doesn't get another batch of runs called until the 4th quarter...you could say there is a lack of cohesion that might occur because you're asking guys to now do something they haven't done in 30 minutes, and not only that but do it well...and against stacked lines....

 

[cincygrad]

To be clear, I like it when Burrow runs QB draws. I do not like it when he runs the QB sneak from under center. He's not good at it and he's gotten hurt doing it more than once.

 

[Cincyfan78]

To be clear, I like it when Burrow runs QB draws. I do not like it when he runs the QB sneak from under center. He's not good at it and he's gotten hurt doing it more than once.

Just pokin' the bear...lol