starting pitching lol

[Illinest]

well maholm had his option declined and morton is having major surgery so the rotation currently consists of mcdonald, karstens, sucky correia, and two mediocre prospects. imagine if karstens and mcdonald get hurt and were forced to fill the rotation with the likes of burres and crotta. great times!

 

[thedddd]

well maholm had his option declined and morton is having major surgery so the rotation currently consists of mcdonald, karstens, sucky correia, and two mediocre prospects. imagine if karstens and mcdonald get hurt and were forced to fill the rotation with the likes of burres and crotta. great times!

Yeah they are pointing to the direction of getting worse next year. With no prospect (not only players but projections) of a better player at C, SS, 1B and not 2/5 of the starting pitching.

 

[TOX1]

Tell you what.....we'll give you guys Oswalt AND Kendrick for Walker. Deal??

 

[element1286]

Tell you what.....we'll give you guys Oswalt AND Kendrick for Walker. Deal??

Didn't realize Oswalt was still on the books for next year in Philly.

 

[magnumo]

As posted by Illinest and thedddd, the probability of improvement for the Pirates in 2012 continues to deteriorate.

The most important component during the positive surge early in the 2011 season was the unexpected success of the starting rotation, along with the support of the bullpen. At this point, the rotation (which regressed significantly over the 2nd half of 2011) appears to be getting weaker. Hopefully, Huntington will do something to help the situation during the offseason.

 

[steelparrot]

Dont forget Ohlendorf..


Another bad thing about not picking up these options, is it gives NH more $$ to sign mediocre free agents... Hopefully, he gets lucky/smarter this year.

 

[magnumo]

Dont forget Ohlendorf..

Most sources are indicating that the Pirates won't offer Ohlendorf arbitration. Since Ohlendorf COULD bounce back, and the starting rotation needs help, I hope those sources are wrong.

 

[Illinest]

Oh yeah Ohlendorf. That changes everything.

The only way these actions make sense is if the Pirates replace Maholm with a better pitcher. I haven't seen the Pirates do anything like that in 20 years however. Maholm is not all that bad. He's certainly going to get something close to the option that we're reputedly turning down. A measurably better pitcher is going to cost 12-16 million or he'll cost good prospects.

I think it's more likely that we're gearing up to go into 2012 with a terrible rotation.

 

[thecrow124]

I still don't see why everyone is so certain that the rotation will be worse next year. Maholm has less ability than either Jeff Locke or Rudy Owens, so either would be at worst a minimal downgrade to the rotation and even then only because they would be rookies.
I may be the only person on this board that thinks Jeff Karstens will be better this year than last, but I do think he will.
Mortons surgery may cost him 2 starts. Might not cost him any. I also think we will see improvement from him as well.
McDonald should be better next year as well, but even if he is only the same, lets remember he got off to the worst start of any of our pitchers last year.
Lincoln should be our #5 pitcher going into the season, and he is the one pitcher that you already know what to expect, 4 decent 5 inning games followed by a clunker, about what you could expect from a #5.

I just can't see any reason to spend over $12 million on 2 average at best pitchers when you don't need to. The money could be better utilized to upgrade 1B, and 3B. Namely Derek Lee(if we can't get Fielder, whom I would target first and foremost) and someone not named Pedro Alvarez. Use the rest securing the services of Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker, IF NH hasn't already burned those bridges.

 

[element1286]

I agree, Crow, Lincoln should be #5 heading into the season, he is a solid #5 right now, and if you believe his new ability to get GB's is legit, he could be as good as Paul Maholm next year.

I'd rather they keep Maholm, but if they don't I see no reason to go outside the organization to add when they have Owens and Locke (and possibly McPherson) as options in AAA.

I'd rather they upgrade the ss, c, and 1b position through free agency.

 

[steelparrot]

I would have picked up Maholm's option too, but lets see how we spend the $$$ before we complain.

For payroll reasons and the fact that our rotation is marching towards free agency, Lincoln has to be given a shot next season.

McDonald
Karstens
Morton
Corriea/Ohlendorf/free agent
Lincoln

6 Locke
7 Owens
8 Wilson(dont think the bullpen move was permanent)
9 Mcphearson

 

[Darkstone42]

I still don't see why everyone is so certain that the rotation will be worse next year. Maholm has less ability than either Jeff Locke or Rudy Owens, so either would be at worst a minimal downgrade to the rotation and even then only because they would be rookies.
I may be the only person on this board that thinks Jeff Karstens will be better this year than last, but I do think he will.
Mortons surgery may cost him 2 starts. Might not cost him any. I also think we will see improvement from him as well.
McDonald should be better next year as well, but even if he is only the same, lets remember he got off to the worst start of any of our pitchers last year.
Lincoln should be our #5 pitcher going into the season, and he is the one pitcher that you already know what to expect, 4 decent 5 inning games followed by a clunker, about what you could expect from a #5.

I just can't see any reason to spend over $12 million on 2 average at best pitchers when you don't need to. The money could be better utilized to upgrade 1B, and 3B. Namely Derek Lee(if we can't get Fielder, whom I would target first and foremost) and someone not named Pedro Alvarez. Use the rest securing the services of Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker, IF NH hasn't already burned those bridges.

I think we might be better targeting a 3B and moving Alvarez to 1B than trying to get both positions. I think it's too early to give up on him completely, but he's not good enough defensively at 3B to keep him there, and that won't change.

I also think we can get close to equal value at 3B for less money than we would at 1B. The outfield is pretty well set, I'd say, or at the very least good enough to start with. I'd look for a small upgrade at SS, like Barmes for instance, pick one of Doumit or Snyder to keep, because I don't think there will be anything better on the market, and maybe target one pitcher if we can afford it.

Of course, locking up McCutchen and Walker need to be at the top of the priority list.

 

[thedddd]

I see the point about using the pitching depth at AAA which makes sense but what I don't get is why not pick up his option?

At that price being left handed, durable and a big time innings eater I bet there are 20+ teams that would offer a deal for him at some point this offseason or during next season.

Anyway I just don't see this team any better off with/without him but try to trade him rather than letting him walk. Also there is no real prospect of them improving without a huge splash via trade or FA.

 

[Illinest]

I feel pretty confident that none of those guys (Lincoln, Ohlendorf, Locke, Owens) will ever exceed Maholm's level of performance.
This is one of those frustrating moments when a portion of the fanbase looks at a group of prospects and says 'these guys are our best prospects' and for whatever mistaken reason takes that to mean that they're 'good' prospects.
They might eventually have some value - as Maholm has value - but their only chance to be more than a crappy starter is if they figure out how to manufacture outs from witchcraft and voodoo like Karstens did last year.

And by the way Morton isn't just missing two starts. He's missing a whole offseason that he needed to work on developing a way to attack LH hitters.

Also - I will be pissed if NH signs Derrek Lee.

Also - I don't really give a shit if McC signs an extension. Take him to arbitration every season until it's time to trade him. That's one thing I won't hold against NH. It doesn't really matter. Worst case is if those latter arbitration years include ridiculous salary awards but I don't care how much of Bob Nuttings money gets spent.
And of course I'm working under the assumption that Nutting will have done it to himself. If Bob doesn't okay NH to spend money now then Bob can spend more money later. Or Bob can refuse to spend money and then I'll find him and destroy him.

 

[steelparrot]

Pirates Prospects 2012 Pittsburgh Pirates 40-Man Roster and Payroll



He assumes we pick up Cedeno's option, no one elses and cuts 10 players including Ohlendorf and Veras. He counts the buyouts and puts us at 30 million with 10 open roster spots.

Based on last years payroll, that gives us 23 million to spend, figure we need to save 5 mill for in season deals that leaves us 18 million to spend this offseason.

So the real decision for NH is/was:

Maholm and 8 mill to spend or no Maholm and 18 mill to spend.


I bet we target 1st base with the money.. So Lee or Pena I'd bet.

As for McCutchen, I agree, I'm almost certain he wants to keep all his free agent years and just buying out his arb years doesnt really change anything.

 

[thedddd]

For McCutchen he probably will make a lot more money with Arbitration so he isn't signing anytime soon.
It would have been a smart business decision to sign him if the money was right for both sides but now like Illinest stated the Pirates will have to pay him more. After the '12 season if McDonald and Walker have good seasons this team will be putting out a lot of money in Arbitration with those three players. I will be a very curious observer at that point to see how much they will be willing to pony up and actually pay their younger talent.

 

[magnumo]

Some thoughts about the Pirates' rotation for 2012:

- If we had a good pitching prospect or two knocking at the door, perhaps no one would be lamenting the Pirates declining Maholm's option.

- It's probably happened before, but I don't remember a pitcher having surgery on the labrum in his hip. Perhaps that's not as worrisome as surgery on the labrum in a shoulder, but given the long recovery time, Morton's surgery MUST be considered major, and a pitcher's legs are almost as important as his pitching arm. I wonder if it's safe to assume that Morton will be able to come back to pitch as well in 2012 as he did in 2011.

- Correia was NH's most successful free agent acquisition for 2011. But I'm astonished that the guy seemingly is being penciled in as the Pirates' #1 starter for 2012. Correia pitched to his career norms in 2011, and it seems unreasonable to expect more from him in 2012. (Seems like more of a #4 or #5 starter to me.)

- Despite Karsten's success in 2011, I continue to have doubts. I can't shake my expectation that he will continue to regress toward his career norms in 2012. On the other hand, I'd LOVE to see him duplicate his 2011 performance. I guess that's what it'll take to make a believer out of me.

- McDonald seems to be the sleeper..... the guy who could break out in 2012. But it would not be a surprise to see him continue to have consistency and command problems.

- Given the decision to decline Maholm's option, and given all the question marks about the 2012 rotation, it makes sense to me for the Pirates to offer Ohlendorf arbitration. Given the criteria used by arbitrators, I can't see him getting more than his 2011 salary (~$2 mill). At that kind of price, they can't afford to just give the guy away.

- Can Lincoln be a successful major league starting pitcher? It appears that 2012 will be the year we find out, once and for all.

- Locke clearly didn't look ready to compete at the major league level, but perhaps the experience will help him compete during Spring Training next year. It sure would be nice to have a lefty in the rotation.

Bottom line: The Pirates have a desperate need for a good starting pitcher to lead the rotation in 2012. Huntington MUST acquire a starter, either through trade or free agency.

- After all, he acquired Karstens and Ohlendorf in the Nady trade, Morton and Locke in the McLouth trade, and McDonald in the Dotel trade. But whom can he trade for a good starting pitcher?

- Can he sign someone better than Correia as a free agent?

 

[Illinest]

oh and then one last other thing.

If the Pirates have the same budget this year that they had last year then you know they're pocketing money because attendance was way up.
The Sports Network Pittsburgh Pirates Team Page (MLB)
That shows 330,000 more announced fans, and honestly I think the real figure is a lot greater than that even given the number of stories I heard in 2010 about free tickets being given out.

And if you assume that each of those fans spent 20 dollars at a minimum then there should be at least 6-7 million dollars higher gross than there was last year. Of course I think 20 is conservative. Probably more like 30 or even 40 per fan. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Pirates collected 15-20 million more in 2011 than they did in 2010.

Oh and I almost forgot about the brief flirtation with first place and the national interest they collected. How does the TV money work out? Did they get paid for being on ESPN?

 

[thedddd]

oh and then one last other thing.

If the Pirates have the same budget this year that they had last year then you know they're pocketing money because attendance was way up.
The Sports Network Pittsburgh Pirates Team Page (MLB)
That shows 330,000 more announced fans, and honestly I think the real figure is a lot greater than that even given the number of stories I heard in 2010 about free tickets being given out.

And if you assume that each of those fans spent 20 dollars at a minimum then there should be at least 6-7 million dollars higher gross than there was last year. Of course I think 20 is conservative. Probably more like 30 or even 40 per fan. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Pirates collected 15-20 million more in 2011 than they did in 2010.

Oh and I almost forgot about the brief flirtation with first place and the national interest they collected. How does the TV money work out? Did they get paid for being on ESPN?

Great points to add what you were stating I know I looked into some season ending packages and most had all Saturday and/or Sunday games sold out from July to the end of the year. Granted people didn't show but they were sold tickets.