special teams

[countryroads316]

Forbath sucks he is a huge part of the reason the special team sucks he barely gets the kick to the 20 yard line by the time our guys get down there to make a tackle its at the 30-35 yard line

Forbath sucks he is a huge part of the reason the special team sucks he barely gets the kick to the 20 yard line by the time our guys get down there to make a tackle its at the 30-35 yard line

wow you rate this bullshit did you watch his kicks last year I went back and watched and he had major trouble getting it past the 20 yard line

 

[skinsdad62]

wow you rate this bullshit did you watch his kicks last year I went back and watched and he had major trouble getting it past the 20 yard line

you must have not watching it very well or you are exaggerating a bit . . you are going to tell me that a professional kicker cant kick a ball 45 yds in the air consistently from a tee ? come on !?!

 

[Breed]

sorry breed that i wasnt more clear about it being a joke , i didnt take it that way , i saw that line in a movie ,

No worries. I wish I was clever enough to see it was a joke.

 

[Breed]

wow you rate this bullshit did you watch his kicks last year I went back and watched and he had major trouble getting it past the 20 yard line

The way your post reads it implies that EVERY Forbath KO barely gets to the 20 yard line. Perhaps that's not what you meant to say. If you did though, you're just flat out wrong.

 

[countryroads316]

Compare that to potential points given up by the poor field position the Redskins had after they kicked off. Forbath’s net kickoff average was 40.7 yards (31st in the NFL) while the league average was 43.0. According to this analysis, every yard of field position on a possession is worth about .055 points. Forbath kicked off 54 times so the Redskins in theory lost 6.8 points over the course of the season because Forbath’s kickoffs were not as deep as those of the average NFL kicker.

That is absolutely sorry!!!!

 

[Breed]

Compare that to potential points given up by the poor field position the Redskins had after they kicked off. Forbath’s net kickoff average was 40.7 yards (31st in the NFL) while the league average was 43.0. According to this analysis, every yard of field position on a possession is worth about .055 points. Forbath kicked off 54 times so the Redskins in theory lost 6.8 points over the course of the season because Forbath’s kickoffs were not as deep as those of the average NFL kicker.

That is absolutely sorry!!!!

Its not all Forbath's fault is what you seem to not want to understand . The KO coverage is sh*tty and a big part of the problem.

Forbath and Way combined for 72 KOs in 2014. That would rank as the 24th most in the NFL. On those 72 KOs the Skins KO coverage team gave up 1,111 yards. That was good for 9th most in the league.

The 1,111 yards allowed has noting to do with how far Forbath or Way kicked the ball. It is not a kicking issue. It is a KO coverage issue and our KO coverage is and has been pretty lousy for a very long time.

Now I don't know how old you are or how long you've been a Redskins fan, but if you've rooted for them throughout the Snyder era. I think we can agree 100% that whoever's been the Skins FG kicker in the Snyder era has been pretty sh*tty before Forbath took over FG kicking.

Since becoming the Skins FG kicker, Forbath is 59/67 or 88.0% to the good on FGs. Not only is he dependable, he's also made multiple game winning FGs as well. He's been in the top 10 in FG % 2 of the three years he's been here. #1 in 2012 and #8 in 2014.

Now speaking just for myself. I agree that Forbath has not been very good far as his KO duties go, but he's been damn good far as his FG kicking duties go

Check out the Skins punting and punt coverage stats. And you'll see that Tress Way, at least imo, is doing his job well as a punter, but the punt coverage team is lacking in their job. I imagine that many of the players depended on to make tackles on the punt coverage. Are also relied upon to make tackles on KO coverage. Yet they suck at both of their jobs. Forbath while sucking at KOs, does very well at FG kicking. So I'm of the mindset of shoring up the coverage teams and if possible. Finding someone new to take on KO duties w/o having to cut Forbath so he can continue on with his FG kicking duties. Because in today's NFL a dependable and proven FG kicker can be the difference between a 10-6 season and a 7-9 season.

 

[countryroads316]

he just sucks as a kicker here is observations from today

However, Kai Forbath’s struggles continued. The place kicker missed, wide right. Fortunately for Forbath, his competitor, Ty Long proceeded to miss a 55-yard attempt off the crossbar right after that. The two then got five more kicks each, attempting from distances of 33, 38, 40, 43 and 48 yards. Forbath was 3 for 5 on his attempts, with misses from 40 and 48 yards out. Long was 4 for 5 with his miss coming from 40 yards out. Forbath has now made only nine of his past 16 attempts. The only problem for the Redskins, Long hasn’t been much better. Forbath has normally proven accurate on field goals (he missed only three kicks all of last season), but weak on kickoffs. This summer, he hasn’t looked sharp in either category.

 

[Breed]

If you don't like the dude just say so, but saying he just sucks as a kicker. Because he's struggled in the very first week of practice in his 4th year. After hitting on 88% of his all his FG attempts in his first 3 years. Isn't a very compelling argument to me.

If it continues well into the preseason I'll began to notice. Until then though, far as the last 3 years go. He's been one of a handful of players on the Skins that's done a job and done it consistently well.

Those screaming for his head now are throwing the baby out with the bathwater imo.

 

[Stymietee]

Concerning your original point. I live in the southlands of Cali so I can't call it.

What was irrational about anything I've said on the subject? But OK, I will give you a theory, you judge whether its rational or not for yourself, concerning safety. As safety, was also a justification you used for the elimination of kick offs.

Why don't owners want to remove the most dangerous piece of equipment, a football helmet, from the football uniform?

Because they fear that removing the helmet and allowing the faces of players to plainly be seen. Would greatly lessen a psychological enforcement within fans that football is the ultimate team game. All players wearing the same helmet with the same logo/emblem, same color facemask etc on the same team. Helps in creating or promoting the illusion that. The team is not a collection of individuals, but individuals that have come together to become a team.

If they were to remove the helmet from the uniform a day before the season starts. The means of tackling, blocking, hitting, would literally change over-night. As players would now have to become responsible for protecting their own head. As opposed to thinking the helmet is doing that job for them.

That not to say that head/neck injuries would be completely eliminated. But players would have to begin to use a part of the body that has in a lot of ways become foreign to NFL tackle football. That being their arms/hands to wrap up and/or grab the player with the ball in order to bring him down. And instead of leading directly or slightly off center with their heads in certain types of tackles. They would now make sure to lead with their shoulder or even a body block.

The removal of the helmet from the uniform would be the single greatest thing football could do to far as player safety goes. But due to a fear of lessening the belief of unification of all players voluntarily coming together to form a single unit. The owners will not allow that to happen. They would simply rather implement fake ass and bullshit initiatives like eliminating one of the most exciting plays in football. As the owners know they have our (the fans) noses wide open and we;ll fall for damn near anything when it comes to professional football. Which is America's favorite blood-sport.

Hate to break it to you but the most dangerous piece of equipment is not the helmet but in fact the human body. There's no way to remove either without effectively ruining the game. Your argument that removing the helmet for safety reasons is contrary to why it became part of the uniform in the firt place. The job at hand now relates to maintaining as much of the original brutal game while lessoning risks to the product.

To be clear, it is very difficult for me to watch games now, as it has already become less than the game that I grew up on.

 

[Stymietee]

LOL I was thinking they were still kicking from the 30. But the point remains most kickoffs around the league are not automatic touchbacks as people are implying.

Specifically, Washington ranks 27th in the league converting 37.5% of its' kickoffs into touchbacks. When did the team annouce that hiring SM and intentions to upgrade the team excluded their kickers? No one is implying or even talking about the league averages. This is about a kicker who is pretty efficient inside of 50 yards but has issues with other aspects of his game. My one and only Question has been and remains, why are so many fans of this team easily persuaded by mediocrity?

 

[Breed]

Hate to break it to you but the most dangerous piece of equipment is not the helmet but in fact the human body. There's no way to remove either without effectively ruining the game. Your argument that removing the helmet for safety reasons is contrary to why it became part of the uniform in the firt place. The job at hand now relates to maintaining as much of the original brutal game while lessoning risks to the product.

To be clear, it is very difficult for me to watch games now, as it has already become less than the game that I grew up on.

The human body is not a piece of football equipment.

I'll just say I disagree with both your opinions on A) Helmets making the game safer and B) Removing them from the uniform would ruin the game. And so do others from a safety standpoint.

The concussion epidemic: Should helmets be banned from football? | Fox News

 

[Breed]

Specifically, Washington ranks 27th in the league converting 37.5% of its' kickoffs into touchbacks. When did the team annouce that hiring SM and intentions to upgrade the team excluded their kickers? No one is implying or even talking about the league averages. This is about a kicker who is pretty efficient inside of 50 yards but has issues with other aspects of his game. My one and only Question has been and remains, why are so many fans of this team easily persuaded by mediocrity?

Two posters, well, actually 3, of which you were one. Made a claim along the lines that all KOs are now automatic touch-backs for just about every team except the Redskins. One of those posters since making his claim has not engaged further in this current conversation. Another one of those posters who has continued to engage in this discussion. Looked at evidence provided and said "My bad, and now I know better." And while you've also continued to engage in the discussion. You've simply glossed over that fact. Why do people do that? Its one thing if you have a difference of opinion with someone and there's no evidence to support either opinion. Or there is evidence available, but not enough to make a reasonable call one way or the other. That isn't the case with your claim that the majority of NFL teams have defenses that always start at the 20 yard line after their offense has scored, Because they have a KO kicker who hammers a kick for a TB just about every time on KOs. So I'l ask again. Why do people do that?

Another thing I find interesting. You've brought up the subject of Redskins fans, other than yourself, settling for, maybe even being giddy over mediocrity. You also claim to be a long time football/Redskins fan. So I'm gonna assume you're aware of the on-going and longstanding issues this team has had with FG kicking/FG kickers just in the Synder era alone and before Forbath's arrival. The Skins have failed to advance in the playoffs due to FG issues and have failed to make the playoffs because of FG issues in said Snyder era. Now tell me. What's mediocre about a FG kicker who's been in the top 10 among FG kickers twice in 3 years far as FG % goes and over the course of 3 seasons has made 88% of all FGs he's attempted? Is that mediocre to you? Cuz its pretty damn good to me. Good enough that all this talk about getting rid of Forbath or at seeming hopeful the Skins get rid of him. Because he's had a rough week in the opening week of practice with the reg season still 2 months is completely asinine to me.

And while those who advocate sticking with Forbath or at the least are not yet concerned with his poor week of practice. Have readily acknowledged his job as a kicker on the KO team has been sub-par and an upgrade is needed there. The fans who seem to want to get rid of Forbath now, have and continue to completely ignore evidence showing that not only is Forbath as a KO kicker not doing a good job. Neither is the KO coverage team doing a good job coverage-wise. Are you settling for the KO coverage teams mediocre performance. It sure seems that way. Or maybe you think GMSM is gonna pull a kicker out his ass that can hit 88% of all his FGs attempted and hammer KOs for touch-backs like you thought just about every other NFL team was doing. Good luck with that.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

My response was not going to be in such glorious fashion but it was going to be the same message. Essentially the Redskins special teams can't. They haven't stopped kickoff return and they have blown on punt coverage as well. This is not news and it ain't all on the kicker.

Sure it would be nice to have this FG production and kickoffs that go out of the end zone. But until that guy is proven, and how many big legged kickers looked good in August and then disappear, I"ll stick with the guy who is clutch on field goals.

And there is nothing average at all about that.

 

[skinsdad62]

i will 3rd the debate . he has had a rough TC so far but again our kick coverage sucks as well .hell our punt coverage sucks and we have a great punter

hitting 88% of your kicks when it counts is damn good . we get better kick coverage then we should be fine

 

[Caliskinsfan]

Kai has been very good when it comes to FGs. Can't see how anyone can argue that. He has also had poor camps before, followed by good seasons.

Coverage from STs is equally responsible for lousy field positions.

Gotta look at the big picture here.

 

[skinsdad62]

breed is right about the helmet and there has been talk of going back to the older style leather helmets to discourage using the modern helmet as a weapon and launching themselves at players . his point of view stymie does have scientific merit

 

[Caliskinsfan]

I find the helmet discussion fascinating. Anyone know how many concussions Rugby players sustain as a comparison? Obviously the way tackles occur in both games are different but I wonder how much that would change the basic strategies involved.

 

[Breed]

I find the helmet discussion fascinating. Anyone know how many concussions Rugby players sustain as a comparison? Obviously the way tackles occur in both games are different but I wonder how much that would change the basic strategies involved.

Concussions: American football versus rugby | pelham rugby club

Does rugby have the same rate of concussions as football? No.
Why not? Rule differences, equipment differences.

Football is a collision sport, while rugby is a contact sport.

The biggest reason rugby does not suffer from the same rate of concussions (or injuries for that matter) as American football is the rules. In football, the defensive player is a missile able to use his helmet or shoulder pads as a weapon. In rugby, such tackles are illegal and result in the offender being thrown out of the game. In rugby, the tackler “must make an attempt to wrap” as he tackles. In rugby, the tackler must also tackle from the armpits down. A player wearing a helmet and shoulder pads and rib protection and hip protection (and so on)… feels invincible!

Armed with the rules of the game, the technique as taught by many coaches—how many times do you hear a football coach yell “put your helmet in his numbers”?—and all that armor plating, the tackler in football is free to launch himself into the ballcarrier as hard and fast as he can, using his helmet and shoulder pads as a weapon. How many times have you seen the wide receiver coming across the middle in football get targeted by what appears to be a missile zeroing in on the head of the player?

Though I've seen reports stating that professional rugby could be just as dangerous, concussion-wise, as professional football.

As well as reports stating that like football peeps. Rugby peeps are just now delving into the is concussion issue and similar to football studies, rugby studies have more question than answers.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

wow you rate this bullshit did you watch his kicks last year I went back and watched and he had major trouble getting it past the 20 yard line

OK let's end this nonsense right now. Here are the states. Kai has averaged 61.6 yards per kickoff. Do the math, that means his kicks land on average inside the 9 yard line. To claim he had major trouble getting them inside the 20 is simply idiotic and not supported by the facts as we tried to tell you days ago.

When you compare Kai with the other kickers in the league, according to Breed's link, the vast majority seem to fall in the 64-65 yard average with the top guys all the way up to 66. So we are talking about 3-4 yards guys. For 3 yards per kickoff I'll be happy to keep Kai.

When you consider the fact that he kicks on the worst field in the league, by far, when many are kicking in domes or at least on great surfaces his FG stats are pretty amazing.

Kai Forbath: Career Stats at NFL.com

2014 NFL Kickoff Statistics - The Football Database

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

As a follow up to this discussion Tress Way averaged over 65 yards per kickoff which placed him among the league leaders. Since Tress is going nowhere soon if they are smart the problem has been solved. Kai hits a clutch 43 yarder to extend the lead to 10, Tress kicks off into the end zone.

What's the problem again? Oh yeah, Kai is struggling on August 9th on a practice field. LMAO.