Soto signed to be No.1 C :(

[TheRangerDude]

See article here: Geovany Soto signs one-year deal to be Texas Rangers' No. 1 catcher | MLB.com: News

I don't know about you but that is really not what I was wanting to see to kick off the off season. I mean Soto is pretty good defensively but we need at bat. I wonder why they were so quick to back off McCann-injuries? I guess that means no more AJ as well and like him or not his offense will be missed. Soto's bat won't be able to replace AJ's. It looks like they are hoping the rotation will be healthy next season but they still better find some bats. Still, I think they are going to have to spend some money to get this thing going again. I hope they don;t let Cruz slip away but I got a bad feeling about that too.

What do you guys think about this signing?

 

[RevSader]

See article here: Geovany Soto signs one-year deal to be Texas Rangers' No. 1 catcher | MLB.com: News

I don't know about you but that is really not what I was wanting to see to kick off the off season. I mean Soto is pretty good defensively but we need at bat. I wonder why they were so quick to back off McCann-injuries? I guess that means no more AJ as well and like him or not his offense will be missed. Soto's bat won't be able to replace AJ's. It looks like they are hoping the rotation will be healthy next season but they still better find some bats. Still, I think they are going to have to spend some money to get this thing going again. I hope they don;t let Cruz slip away but I got a bad feeling about that too.

What do you guys think about this signing?

I don't believe anything until opening day is here and Soto is the primary catcher. Mostly, I just don't believe much of what the FO says about this kind of stuff when so many other things are up in the air. We've gone over this in the offseason thread and loads of other things as well. I know some people in Ranger fandom are taking it as gospel truth, and because of that are rather negative about the future. I am gonna let it play out before I freak out I think.

 

[TheRangerDude]

I don't believe anything until opening day is here and Soto is the primary catcher. Mostly, I just don't believe much of what the FO says about this kind of stuff when so many other things are up in the air. We've gone over this in the offseason thread and loads of other things as well. I know some people in Ranger fandom are taking it as gospel truth, and because of that are rather negative about the future. I am gonna let it play out before I freak out I think.

Whats up Rev.... been a while. How you been? Anyway though, have to admit that it still isn't too thrilling but you are right, opening day is a really long way away and a lot can change between now and then.

 

[terpsfball09]

I know the article says all that, but it would just not make sense if we didnt at least make a run at mccann. THATS when I'd question the front office. If we hardly even go for McCann then something is wrong. I just can't believe that we'd sign soto to be our guy when one of the best catchers of the past 5 years is on the market.

 

[TDs3nOut]

See article here: Geovany Soto signs one-year deal to be Texas Rangers' No. 1 catcher | MLB.com: News

I don't know about you but that is really not what I was wanting to see to kick off the off season. I mean Soto is pretty good defensively but we need at bat. I wonder why they were so quick to back off McCann-injuries? I guess that means no more AJ as well and like him or not his offense will be missed. Soto's bat won't be able to replace AJ's. It looks like they are hoping the rotation will be healthy next season but they still better find some bats. Still, I think they are going to have to spend some money to get this thing going again. I hope they don;t let Cruz slip away but I got a bad feeling about that too.

What do you guys think about this signing?

Can't imagine that anyone is thrilled by the idea of Soto being the number one catcher, though, like you wrote he is good defensively. I think that McCann will be really expensive and I've seen a couple of reports that Boston is interested in him. Made me wonder whether we might try and get Salty back. I wouldn't mind that.

 

[TheRangerDude]

I know the article says all that, but it would just not make sense if we didnt at least make a run at mccann. THATS when I'd question the front office. If we hardly even go for McCann then something is wrong. I just can't believe that we'd sign soto to be our guy when one of the best catchers of the past 5 years is on the market.

I hope your right... they should at least make a run at him.

 

[TheRangerDude]

Can't imagine that anyone is thrilled by the idea of Soto being the number one catcher, though, like you wrote he is good defensively. I think that McCann will be really expensive and I've seen a couple of reports that Boston is interested in him. Made me wonder whether we might try and get Salty back. I wouldn't mind that.

If that's the case... it could get tough to outbid the Sox. But I thought the Sox were going to try to tame their spending a bit. Not sure on Salty too much ... he is a better bat though.

 

[jta4437]

See article here: Geovany Soto signs one-year deal to be Texas Rangers' No. 1 catcher | MLB.com: News

I don't know about you but that is really not what I was wanting to see to kick off the off season. I mean Soto is pretty good defensively but we need at bat. I wonder why they were so quick to back off McCann-injuries? I guess that means no more AJ as well and like him or not his offense will be missed. Soto's bat won't be able to replace AJ's. It looks like they are hoping the rotation will be healthy next season but they still better find some bats. Still, I think they are going to have to spend some money to get this thing going again. I hope they don;t let Cruz slip away but I got a bad feeling about that too.

What do you guys think about this signing?

Soto's bat was better than AJ's last year, AJ just had a higher average and struck out less, that's about it

I'm not concerned about that at all

The McCann thing is probably a realization that too many teams with more money are honing in on McCann and no point in getting in a bidding war when they can be focusing their attention elsewhere

I have no problem with Soto being the #1, after McCann he was the next best option in my opinion

 

[jta4437]

If that's the case... it could get tough to outbid the Sox. But I thought the Sox were going to try to tame their spending a bit. Not sure on Salty too much ... he is a better bat though.

Salty's rocky exit last time makes me think he's not much of an option

 

[TDs3nOut]

Salty's rocky exit last time makes me think he's not much of an option

Didn't realize that Salty had a "rocky exit", so perhaps he's not a viable option. I liked the idea of a switch-hitting C, but after looking at his splits I was surprised to see that Soto actually hit RHP better than lefties. Maybe he is the right guy for the number one C job.

 

[jta4437]

Didn't realize that Salty had a "rocky exit", so perhaps he's not a viable option. I liked the idea of a switch-hitting C, but after looking at his splits I was surprised to see that Soto actually hit RHP better than lefties. Maybe he is the right guy for the number one C job.

Probably just a one year outlier, over his career he's been much better against LHPs

But hopefully it does indicate that he's improved overall

 

[TheRangerDude]

Soto's bat was better than AJ's last year, AJ just had a higher average and struck out less, that's about it

I'm not concerned about that at all

The McCann thing is probably a realization that too many teams with more money are honing in on McCann and no point in getting in a bidding war when they can be focusing their attention elsewhere

I have no problem with Soto being the #1, after McCann he was the next best option in my opinion

I'm sorry but wouldn't AJ having a higher average indicate that he had the better bat? Also, those are not really the only differences if you normalize the numbers by PAs. Soto has more power and walks more but that is about it.

AJ: PA: 529, HR: 17, RBI:70, BB:11, SO:76
Soto: PA:184, HR: 9, RBI:22, BB:20, SO:60

Normalized by PA:
AJ: HR: 3.2 % of PA, RBI: 13.2% of PA, BB: 2.1% of PA, SO:14.4% of PA
Soto: HR: 4.9% of PA, RBI: 12% of PA, BB:11% of PA, SO: 32.6% of PA

Also, even if you look at career averages, which to me is even better evidence because their is a lot more data, AJ hits about 40 point over Soto. Thats is pretty significant, that is the difference between a .300 hitter and .260 hitter. Soto is an upgrade defensively over AJ but he is not a better bat. That being said I still hope he has a monster year and crushes what his career numbers would suggest but the odds of that are generally not to high, his sample is already pretty large.

I might agree with you on the McCann thing though. Last year with Grienke and a few years prior with Lee might have made the FO a little weary of getting into bidding wars with heavyweight teams. Maybe they feel like they missed out on other deals b/c they got preoccupied with a big fish. I was also thinking they might think he is too much of an injury risk. Either way, I still would have liked to see them make a run at him and I suppose it is still possible they do. I mean I don't think they would miss out on anything if they did but it might not be as big as a priority to them anymore either. The main they they gotta do is get a really good DH now. I'm hoping at this point that its Cruz and somehow we can sign another productive bat for LF. They are going to at least need two new solid bats and I guess Cruz isn't new but you know what I mean. I suppose that bat could come at 1B too.

 

[romeo212000]

I'm sorry but wouldn't AJ having a higher average indicate that he had the better bat? Also, those are not really the only differences if you normalize the numbers by PAs. Soto has more power and walks more but that is about it.

AJ: PA: 529, HR: 17, RBI:70, BB:11, SO:76
Soto: PA:184, HR: 9, RBI:22, BB:20, SO:60

Normalized by PA:
AJ: HR: 3.2 % of PA, RBI: 13.2% of PA, BB: 2.1% of PA, SO:14.4% of PA
Soto: HR: 4.9% of PA, RBI: 12% of PA, BB:11% of PA, SO: 32.6% of PA

Also, even if you look at career averages, which to me is even better evidence because their is a lot more data, AJ hits about 40 point over Soto. Thats is pretty significant, that is the difference between a .300 hitter and .260 hitter. Soto is an upgrade defensively over AJ but he is not a better bat. That being said I still hope he has a monster year and crushes what his career numbers would suggest but the odds of that are generally not to high, his sample is already pretty large.

I might agree with you on the McCann thing though. Last year with Grienke and a few years prior with Lee might have made the FO a little weary of getting into bidding wars with heavyweight teams. Maybe they feel like they missed out on other deals b/c they got preoccupied with a big fish. I was also thinking they might think he is too much of an injury risk. Either way, I still would have liked to see them make a run at him and I suppose it is still possible they do. I mean I don't think they would miss out on anything if they did but it might not be as big as a priority to them anymore either. The main they they gotta do is get a really good DH now. I'm hoping at this point that its Cruz and somehow we can sign another productive bat for LF. They are going to at least need two new solid bats and I guess Cruz isn't new but you know what I mean. I suppose that bat could come at 1B too.

No, barring average is not the ultimate indicator of a better hitter.

 

[jta4437]

No, batting average is not the ultimate indicator of a better hitter.

 

[jta4437]

I'm sorry but wouldn't AJ having a higher average indicate that he had the better bat? Also, those are not really the only differences if you normalize the numbers by PAs. Soto has more power and walks more but that is about it.

AJ: PA: 529, HR: 17, RBI:70, BB:11, SO:76
Soto: PA:184, HR: 9, RBI:22, BB:20, SO:60

Normalized by PA:
AJ: HR: 3.2 % of PA, RBI: 13.2% of PA, BB: 2.1% of PA, SO:14.4% of PA
Soto: HR: 4.9% of PA, RBI: 12% of PA, BB:11% of PA, SO: 32.6% of PA

Also, even if you look at career averages, which to me is even better evidence because their is a lot more data, AJ hits about 40 point over Soto. Thats is pretty significant, that is the difference between a .300 hitter and .260 hitter. Soto is an upgrade defensively over AJ but he is not a better bat. That being said I still hope he has a monster year and crushes what his career numbers would suggest but the odds of that are generally not to high, his sample is already pretty large.

I might agree with you on the McCann thing though. Last year with Grienke and a few years prior with Lee might have made the FO a little weary of getting into bidding wars with heavyweight teams. Maybe they feel like they missed out on other deals b/c they got preoccupied with a big fish. I was also thinking they might think he is too much of an injury risk. Either way, I still would have liked to see them make a run at him and I suppose it is still possible they do. I mean I don't think they would miss out on anything if they did but it might not be as big as a priority to them anymore either. The main they they gotta do is get a really good DH now. I'm hoping at this point that its Cruz and somehow we can sign another productive bat for LF. They are going to at least need two new solid bats and I guess Cruz isn't new but you know what I mean. I suppose that bat could come at 1B too.

I could care less about batting average, what's his OBP? the fact is, AJ does not have productive ABs, he is a free swinger that while he gets a hit 20-30% of the time, does not work the count and does not move runners over, I'm done with him

Soto's WAR last year in 184 plate appearances was 1.4, AJ's was 1.6 in 500+

Nuff said, don't come into an argument with just batting average

 

[TheRangerDude]

No, barring average is not the ultimate indicator of a better hitter.

It's definitely one of them though.

 

[TheRangerDude]

I could care less about batting average, what's his OBP? the fact is, AJ does not have productive ABs, he is a free swinger that while he gets a hit 20-30% of the time, does not work the count and does not move runners over, I'm done with him

Soto's WAR last year in 184 plate appearances was 1.4, AJ's was 1.6 in 500+

Nuff said, don't come into an argument with just batting average

I wasn't really aware I was coming into an argument. I just presented some simple statical facts of comparison and I definitely talked about more than batting average. I talked about SO%, RBI%, BB%, and HR%. You could also talk about OBP if you want and I realize that is also an important stat, in in many circles it is considered more important than BA. Still, if you look at career numbers though, they are pretty even there (13 point difference). AJ's OBP was last season was the 2nd lowest he recorded in his career while Soto's OBP went over .300 for the first time as a Ranger and only for the 2nd since 2010. Honestly, I am fine that AJ is gone, he was getting old and also really seemed to slide defensively as the season wore on. But you are not going to convince me that Soto is a better hitter. He just isn't. There carrer numbers just don't suggest this.

Also, comparing WAR stats really doesn't make that much sense unless the players have had near the same amount of playing time. Given the way it is calculated it doesn't make sense to normalize it with PA. Personally, I still am not sure if WAR measures what it intends to and there really is no way to test it experimentally. I think it is a valuable metric and has relevance but not as much as it is given at face value. It is only as good as the components that make it up. Also, there is a considerable amount of detail lost when you attempt to create methods of combining stats.

Also, I should note that if you care about productive ABs, SOs are almost the least productive type of ABs and Soto strikes out at twice the rate of free swigging AJ.

Anyway, I can deal with Soto, what he doesn't do offensively he will make up for defensively but we are going to need some more bats to make this thing work. I am sure you can agree with that. Even if you disagree with everything else.

 

[jta4437]

It's definitely one of them though.

it helps but Soto pretty much had him at everything else

 

[TheRangerDude]

it helps but Soto pretty much had him at everything else

One last thing I should add too. I think our main disagreement here is the definition of a hitter. To me, from a scientific standpoint, when you make mathematical definitions for specific things, you need to do 2 things:

1. Make sure the definition measures what it is intended to measure and that you can verify that it does so
2. Make sure it takes the simplest approach to do so

If you want to measure someones ability to hit. You simply measure how often they get hits. That's the simple approach and also the most correct. Obviously, that is what BA does.

For me, what you are saying is who is the better batter, not the better hitter? This is actually a little tougher of a question because it involves more variables. In in front offices people still don't really agree on just one method of determining it because it is a much more involved question and different people think different variables are more important than others. That being said, I personally think AJ is a better batter and I think his career numbers show that. But I will not argue that I can prove he is a better batter, only that the numbers that I consider important for a batter are higher. I will argue that he is a better hitter though... because he simply hits the ball more frequently. Hopefully that clears up where I was coming from. I really didn;t not intend any offense.

 

[RevSader]

One last thing I should add too. I think our main disagreement here is the definition of a hitter. To me, from a scientific standpoint, when you make mathematical definitions for specific things, you need to do 2 things:

1. Make sure the definition measures what it is intended to measure and that you can verify that it does so
2. Make sure it takes the simplest approach to do so

If you want to measure someones ability to hit. You simply measure how often they get hits. That's the simple approach and also the most correct. Obviously, that is what BA does.

For me, what you are saying is who is the better batter, not the better hitter? This is actually a little tougher of a question because it involves more variables. In in front offices people still don't really agree on just one method of determining it because it is a much more involved question and different people think different variables are more important than others. That being said, I personally think AJ is a better batter and I think his career numbers show that. But I will not argue that I can prove he is a better batter, only that the numbers that I consider important for a batter are higher. I will argue that he is a better hitter though... because he simply hits the ball more frequently. Hopefully that clears up where I was coming from. I really didn;t not intend any offense.

He makes more contact, but from a wholly objective stand point he sees fewer pitchers per PA than Soto. And subjectively that leads to less productions ABs. Going forward I value the type of PA that Soto gives over AJP. Soto might strike out, but he is more prone to see more pitches than AJP on average. In many instances AJP propensity to be impatient leads to undesirable outcomes like GIDP.

I fully get what you are saying. AJP is clearly the more successful player when it comes to contact %. That ultimately is the point of the game, however I think Geo would have been better with less sporadic playing time.