so ... what now?

[idseer]

will the sox be able to compete in the next 3 years? if not, why not unload now and get some youth on this team? so .... if they can, without losing money .....

trade: cabrera, la roche, ramirez, duke, flowers. won't get much in return, perhaps a couple decent prospects.
let walk: smarg, bonifacio, beckham, soto. smarg won't be worth nearly what he expects to get and the rest are literally worthless.

now the hard part, guys who could actually bring valuable young players and/or top prospects:

trade: sale and robertson. sale is signed thru 2017 with options for '18 & '19 for a ridiculously low amount of money. one of the best contracts in baseball. the sox 'might' contend by '17 but more likely not seriously until '18 or '19. the sox will not be able to afford him after that. so ... keep him simply because we love him? get nowhere anyway as a team? gamble that he gets thru the next 4 years at the same level of performance without injury then get nothing for him? teams that are contending right now would pay thru the nose for sale. and this still leaves the team with two excellent starters in quintana and rodon with very good looking prospects on the horizon (montas & fulmer).

robertson is signed thru 2018. not as valuable as sale but still a top closer which many teams need. and he won't do us any good and certainly would be worth little after 2018. closers just don't have staying power.

i hold onto abrue (simply because i don't think he's nearly as trade-able, especially after the year he's having ... he's looking rather average for his pay) and i hold onto eaton ..... not because i like him, but because he also has a good contract. tho i'm doubtful he'll ever be much good. he's a below average cf'r, has no power, base running instincts are bad, and is probably a .270 hitter. wouldn't get much for him anyway but if he starts to look like the guy we'd hoped he will be worth keeping.
garcia is also a question mark. he still hasn't blossomed into what we'd hoped for but he's young yet so hold onto him.

this gives us 1b, cf and rf, and a starting staff. we obviously need a lot! have a hopeful ss coming up in anderson and maybe a 2nd baseman in johnson (tho he may project better in left if his fielding doesn't improve) but not much else.

this team is garbage right now the way it's set up. either prepare for the future or continue being below average for years to come.

obviously this plan also must insist on getting a manager, something the team hasn't had for 6 or 7 years now. hahn may still be ok as a gm but if the sox had any brains at all they'd also show kenny williams the door.

all this is predicated on the sox not being competitive for the next 3 or 4 years? anyone think differently?

 

[craigk217]

I can agree with nearly all, Iddy.

Untouchables IMO:

- Sale
- Abreu
- Rodon

Everyone else up on the team right now is fair game. These three are a good nucleus to build around, although Sale will not be cheap to keep come new contract time. I believe he's worth it, though ... he's a Cy Young capable arm.

This team went with the 'now' theme in attempting to catch the same 2005 lightning in a bottle and mismanaged the 'future' in not getting youngsters and developing a good farm system. There's a few down there that may pan out, but it's not looking all that great, future/development-wise.

RV needs to go ... he's had his chance .... bye-bye as soon as we can find a replacement. Gardenhire is still unemployed as far as I know. He might be a better option.

It also might be time for Kenny to go, too, but I doubt Reinsdorf will pull that trigger. I think that's gonna have to come from KW, himself, by stepping down.

Pretty sure this season may be shot. I think the pitching's been very decent ... horrid offense, simply cannot score runs. Don't see this team making a run ... would need a miracle in getting this offense to get a pulse.

 

[msgkings322]

So now you guys would consider trading Quintana for a legit catcher and a pitching prospect?

Also, Smardjiza is the best chance the Sox have this year to trade for something useful.

Remember when the year started all of us (yes you guys too) were pretty excited. On paper they made some solid moves. Only Robertson worked. Did anyone think Cabrera would suck so hard? That Eaton, Ramirez, Gillaspie etc would all turn to crap?

The manager does suck but that's not why the team sucks. Joe Maddon would have these guys with maybe 3 more wins.

 

[idseer]

so ..... just a thought .....

sale and flowers to the giants for posey and pitcher kyle crick (#1 prospect) and a lessor prospect. giants have a #2 rated catcher behind posey in susac so flowers would be a backup. posey is signed thru 2022.

 

[richig07]

so ..... just a thought .....

sale and flowers to the giants for posey and pitcher kyle crick (#1 prospect) and a lessor prospect. giants have a #2 rated catcher behind posey in susac so flowers would be a backup. posey is signed thru 2022.

You're not going to get Posey. You'd get the #2. Posey isn't going anywhere.

 

[richig07]

God… now this team is reeling off some wins just to screw with us. Going into STL and winning both games.

Flowers hitting the piss out of the ball… Danks throwing gems, and escaping jams like a magician.

I bet against Danks and on Baltimore tonight too. This team can't even lose right!

 

[idseer]

You're not going to get Posey. You'd get the #2. Posey isn't going anywhere.

ah ... ok mr evans.

 

[msgkings322]

ah ... ok mr evans.

No, he's exactly right. Posey is the face of the franchise that just won 3 of the last 5 championships. Why would they tear out the heart of that team? There are maybe 5-6 players that will never be traded (in their primes) for their teams: Posey, Trout, Harper, guys like that.

Also, you don't want Crick, he's really struggling. He's not the Giants' #1 prospect., not even their best pitching prospect.

I doubt the Giants are dealing but you'd have way more luck getting Susac who is going to be a very good catcher. Kind of already is their primary catcher these days. He + Crick could be had for Quintana.

But like I said, Giants I think will hang on to their young guys this year, they are in no rush to win this year obviously.

 

[richig07]

ah ... ok mr evans.

I'm right… and you know it.

SF isn't going to breakup the core of their team in the midst of competing for another division title (potentially another WS title), not to mention give away their leader away in the midst of his prime.

Also, I fail to see why the deal makes sense to begin with. You want to give up Sale, which will kick off a total fire sale. Yet… you want a veteran catcher in Posey as the main part of the return, who is older than Sale? Just… nothing about this makes sense. A catcher and the captain for a dynasty of a baseball team, leaving to go to the last place White Sox mid-season?

 

[idseer]

I'm right… and you know it.

SF isn't going to breakup the core of their team in the midst of competing for another division title (potentially another WS title), not to mention give away their leader away in the midst of his prime.

Also, I fail to see why the deal makes sense to begin with. You want to give up Sale, which will kick off a total fire sale. Yet… you want a veteran catcher in Posey as the main part of the return, who is older than Sale? Just… nothing about this makes sense. A catcher and the captain for a dynasty of a baseball team, leaving to go to the last place White Sox mid-season?

let me just state right off that you haven't a clue what sf would do. you can make statements all day long about what teams will or will not do ... based on what ... your logic? guess what? teams make moves all the time that defy your logic. what you call the "leader" of their team is irrelevant. he's a player like any other only better than most. players (stars) are moved all the time in baseball and it's been going on forever.

as to the suggested 'possibility' ... it's called balance, and it's only one of a few moves they'd need to pull off. while posey IS a veteran ... he's just 28 years old. don't make him sound 32. the fact he's a veteran of dependable quality is a plus ... not a minus (and he's signed thru 2022). where the 'sense' comes in is it fills a tremendous hole behind the plate (unless you don't think flowers and soto is a hole). it does NOT create a hole in the starting staff as the sox have 2 other quality starting pitchers with at least 2 more on the near horizon (yes .. nothing is guaranteed ... just as sale is not guaranteed to stay healthy and injury-free for 4 more years). there's no rule about a pennant winner needing an outstanding pitching star. ergo ... 'sense'. add crick to the equation and there's yet another potential starter ... PLUS another prospect for good measure.
now you still have weaknesses (tho catching is the biggest). 2nd base, which may of may not be filled by johnson eventually. 3rd base. shortstop. you still have other players that can (and will be) moved in the next year or two. if it's done right (something i have zero confidence in with this organization) they could be a true contender in a couple years.

in any event this was nothing more than 'a thought', remember? maybe make some surprising moves and compete ... or stay with this mess they developed and hover at or below .500 until sale leaves in 2020. i don't know about you, but this team from the tippy top on down makes me ill.

 

[craigk217]

God… now this team is reeling off some wins just to screw with us. Going into STL and winning both games.

Flowers hitting the piss out of the ball… Danks throwing gems, and escaping jams like a magician.

I bet against Danks and on Baltimore tonight too. This team can't even lose right!

I wouldn't say one series (or two) makes for hitting the piss out of the ball and throwing gems. A blind squirrel ...

JMO.

 

[craigk217]

so ..... just a thought .....

sale and flowers to the giants for posey and pitcher kyle crick (#1 prospect) and a lessor prospect. giants have a #2 rated catcher behind posey in susac so flowers would be a backup. posey is signed thru 2022.

No.

I know we need a catcher worth a shit, but not at the expense of a now cheap Cy Young caliber pitcher to build this team around.

This team needs to stop thinking in 'the now' and start building a farm system. That's where 'the $$$ is made.'

Let's see what Hahn can do with the crap shoot draft(s), I say. And he needs to draft some top caliber catching prospects.

 

[idseer]

No.

I know we need a catcher worth a shit, but not at the expense of a now cheap Cy Young caliber pitcher to build this team around.

This team needs to stop thinking in 'the now' and start building a farm system. That's where 'the $$$ is made.'

Let's see what Hahn can do with the crap shoot draft(s), I say. And he needs to draft some top caliber catching prospects.

but the cheapness of his contract is what makes him so very trade-able and why teams would pay thru the nose for him. i disagree about your 'now' statement because it would add two very young and promising players and posey would be around for now AND later (signed thru 2022). so i still think it's something to consider.

no matter what hahn does (i think he's somewhat handcuffed by williams) i still say this team needs to be sold because no matter what players they end up with, they still have williams and ventura and reinsdork's brain.

 

[msgkings322]

but the cheapness of his contract is what makes him so very trade-able and why teams would pay thru the nose for him. i disagree about your 'now' statement because it would add two very young and promising players and posey would be around for now AND later (signed thru 2022). so i still think it's something to consider.

no matter what hahn does (i think he's somewhat handcuffed by williams) i still say this team needs to be sold because no matter what players they end up with, they still have williams and ventura and reinsdork's brain.

Everybody here thought they made some very good moves for this year. It's not really accurate to pounce on them when so many players have flat out sucked so unexpectedly. Even if 1 or 2 guys regresses you don't expect so many to do so: Eaton, Ramirez, Cabrera, Garcia, Gillaspie, Duke. Some others suck but were never that good, but if those listed just played to their expected level this team is in the playoff hunt. They filled a bunch of holes and went into the season thinking only 2B and maybe C was below average, everyone else looked solid.

Then it didn't work out that way. But when the moves were made everyone here applauded. And that was on Reinsdorf's watch.

 

[craigk217]

Everybody here thought they made some very good moves for this year. It's not really accurate to pounce on them when so many players have flat out sucked so unexpectedly. Even if 1 or 2 guys regresses you don't expect so many to do so: Eaton, Ramirez, Cabrera, Garcia, Gillaspie, Duke. Some others suck but were never that good, but if those listed just played to their expected level this team is in the playoff hunt. They filled a bunch of holes and went into the season thinking only 2B and maybe C was below average, everyone else looked solid.

Then it didn't work out that way. But when the moves were made everyone here applauded. And that was on Reinsdorf's watch.

Because, I think, there was some actual worthwhile reason to applaud, this time.

You said it ... on paper, this team should be competing for the division. All they've done is underachieved and, more often than not, that falls on the manager ... justified, or not.

 

[msgkings322]

Because, I think, there was some actual worthwhile reason to applaud, this time.

You said it ... on paper, this team should be competing for the division. All they've done is underachieved and, more often than not, that falls on the manager ... justified, or not.

Oh no doubt, Ventura is awful. But he's not why Cabrera, Eaton, and so many others have sucked this year. The manager can affect the pen and to some extent the starters with his decisions. But he didn't make Eaton and the others go from good hitters to shitty ones.

I was just pushing back against the idea that the GM or even the owner were the problem. The GM made a bunch of very good moves, which we all approved of. The Sox got picked by a lot of national press to contend as well. Then shit happened.

It is on the owner that Ventura is there, no doubt. But as I said, put a good manager in there and they maybe have a few more wins.

 

[craigk217]

Oh no doubt, Ventura is awful. But he's not why Cabrera, Eaton, and so many others have sucked this year. The manager can affect the pen and to some extent the starters with his decisions. But he didn't make Eaton and the others go from good hitters to shitty ones.

I was just pushing back against the idea that the GM or even the owner were the problem. The GM made a bunch of very good moves, which we all approved of. The Sox got picked by a lot of national press to contend as well. Then shit happened.

It is on the owner that Ventura is there, no doubt. But as I said, put a good manager in there and they maybe have a few more wins.

Ja ... I concur. Was just mentioning the manager is nearly always the 'fall guy' in shit like this.

This team has just pissed me off beyond belief this year. Read: more than other years past.

And Sale has given up two long balls tonite ... and it doesn't look like he's gonna get the lone record at this rate.

 

[msgkings322]

Ja ... I concur. Was just mentioning the manager is nearly always the 'fall guy' in shit like this.

This team has just pissed me off beyond belief this year. Read: more than other years past.

And Sale has given up two long balls tonite ... and it doesn't look like he's gonna get the lone record at this rate.

For sure, me too. It's way worse when you expect to be good and you suck than when you know you are going to suck and you do.

 

[craigk217]

For sure, me too. It's way worse when you expect to be good and you suck than when you know you are going to suck and you do.

LOL ... tru.dat

Just outta curiosity (and I've maybe asked before and you told me), but how are you a Sox fan and a Ginny's fan?

 

[msgkings322]

LOL ... tru.dat

Just outta curiosity (and I've maybe asked before and you told me), but how are you a Sox fan and a Ginny's fan?

Born in Chicago, lived there until I was 9, my dad was a big Sox fan and of course you go with your dad's team usually. But I've lived in SF for 27 years now, and for a while I was a fan of both equally, but when Bonds showed up I started leaning Giants. Also like the NL game better. But I still like the Sox, really root for them, etc. My dad and I talk baseball almost more than any other thing.

There's so little overlap or conflict having those 2 teams, the only interaction they've had was probably the 1997 'white flag' trade. My wife is a huge Giants fan ans she always teases me about who I'd root for if they met up in the Series. I think Giants but I wonder. I doubt I'd ever have to face that. It'd be fun though!

Nice win tonight. 2 CGs, game took 1:54. CLassic Buehrle fast game