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So the Writers decided Piazza, Raines did steroids?

Cedrique

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Otherwise there is no fucking way either of them should not be in the hall of fame. Also, Biggio was clean, Bagwell wasn't. Got it
 

calsnowskier

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I doubt that juicing had much to do with either of them. If juicing was the reason, their numbers would have been much lower, I think.

If they were both determined to be roiders, their numbers would have been south of Bonds and Clemens (about 37%).

Both are on "my ballot", but there are arguments against them..

Raines - Not the elite of his type player during his era. Had a short timeframe where he was "elite". Does not have 3K hits.

Piazza - Not a good defensive C. The "gay thing" probably cost him some votes. No rings. (I am starting to reach).
 

Rex Racer

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Otherwise there is no fucking way either of them should not be in the hall of fame. Also, Biggio was clean, Bagwell wasn't. Got it
Biggio doesn't belong in the HOF.
 

Cedrique

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I doubt that juicing had much to do with either of them. If juicing was the reason, their numbers would have been much lower, I think.

If they were both determined to be roiders, their numbers would have been south of Bonds and Clemens (about 37%).

Both are on "my ballot", but there are arguments against them..

Raines - Not the elite of his type player during his era. Had a short timeframe where he was "elite". Does not have 3K hits.

Piazza - Not a good defensive C. The "gay thing" probably cost him some votes. No rings. (I am starting to reach).

I don't buy the 3,000 hits thing in Raines' case. I know a walk is not quite as good as a hit, but Raines had 1300 walks and a high OBP and stole lots of bases while not getting thrown out much. But I guess his injuries could take away from him some. He has a lot of seasons where he missed a lot of games so didn't get on all star teams or get MVP votes.

Piazza to me is a no brainer even with the shaky defense. He put up numbers that had never been seen by a catcher before or since. The only player ever to hit over 400 homers as a catcher, lifetime batting average over .300, etc.
 

notorious98

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Otherwise there is no fucking way either of them should not be in the hall of fame. Also, Biggio was clean, Bagwell wasn't. Got it

C'mon man. There have been rumors that Piazza juiced for a long time. Whether they are true or not, who's to say besides Piazza. But that doesn't stop the whispers.
 

Cedrique

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C'mon man. There have been rumors that Piazza juiced for a long time. Whether they are true or not, who's to say besides Piazza. But that doesn't stop the whispers.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying though. Bagwell's stats are good enough so I assume whispers about him is what is keeping him out. But then it is kind of hard to believe Biggio wasn't if Caminiti and Bagwell were. Who knows? Dykstra has claimed he and a lot of other guys were doing it in the early 90's but Kruk and Schilling say they didn't so I guess maybe Biggio was clean. The whole thing is a mess. And no one knows exactly when people started using steroids and stuff. They weren't officially banned til 2003 and bagwell was almost done by then. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some guys were using stuff that is now illegal in the 80's as well. How did Darrell Evans suddenly go back to hitting a bunch of homeruns at age 38-40?
 

jvett77

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I wonder if guys can get away with "bulking up" over the winter. That would be the way to go unless they test throughout the year.
 

notorious98

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Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying though. Bagwell's stats are good enough so I assume whispers about him is what is keeping him out. But then it is kind of hard to believe Biggio wasn't if Caminiti and Bagwell were. Who knows? Dykstra has claimed he and a lot of other guys were doing it in the early 90's but Kruk and Schilling say they didn't so I guess maybe Biggio was clean. The whole thing is a mess. And no one knows exactly when people started using steroids and stuff. They weren't officially banned til 2003 and bagwell was almost done by then. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some guys were using stuff that is now illegal in the 80's as well. How did Darrell Evans suddenly go back to hitting a bunch of homeruns at age 38-40?

Yeah, I think both Biggio and Evans are legitimate question marks. Especially when you see Biggio's number after 38 as well. Set a career high in homers at 38 and then broke that career high at 39. And it's not like he was trying to break Juan Pierre-like HR numbers. I think the writers only look at those big sluggers or power pitchers and think that steroids could work for them.

The only reason I would consider that Biggio's late career numbers are legit is that his average, OBP, and walks all plummeted. Or the move to Minute Maid Park turned his doubles into HRs because his OPS and OPS+ weren't fantastic either.
 
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