Sharks' Window to Win

[sjrules99]

I don't quite get this. In what way is Havlat a questionmark? If you're talking the likelyhood of an injury I can understand but on the ice and in the lockerroom there should be absolutely no questions. The guy plays hard game in and game out and is a much, much better hockey player than Heatley. He soured a bit on a team that made no effort to win but even with that he wasn't a distraction on or off the ice.

As for the 3rd and 4th lines we don't really know what the Sharks have. Handzus is a great 2-way 3rd liner and if Mitchell continues playing like he did to finish out last year he is also a very good 2-way 3rd liner. Murray, if he can stay healthy, is exellent for the 4th line and McGinn could be strong in that role too as long as he learns to keep his head in the game. Dejardins, while still a questionmark, showed more in his short stint with the team then Nichol did all last season which is most likely why Nichol wasn't re-signed.

On paper this team, as it stands, is the best San Jose has ever put on the ice.

Certainly, it's up there with the best. the first half of '08 was pretty impressive with the dominant 4 on D, and the offensive power up front. Of course, they faded and that was that.

The D now sure looks good though. As long as boyle doesnt age too much and burns plays solidly in his own zone, the D should be pretty good. It might be the best opening day defense the team has ever had.

Right now though, I think we kinda know what we have on the 3rd line. Handzus is a fine PKer and will chip in 10-15 goals, so he is a suitable 3rd liner, but beyond that, there really isnt much.

Mcginn has yet to show any semblance of 3rd line behavior. He's tough, throws the body well, but hasnt put the puck in the net nearly at all, and hasnt been all too disciplined either. His consistency is seriously lacking. he's young, so he might make some strides, but he'll have to come a long way to be adequate for regular 3rd line duty.

Mitchell is also a respectable PKer, but is thrown off the puck with ease and aside from the one pretty goal where the red (or blueish) sea parted, he is an offensive sink hole. He is completely incapable of playing along the boards, has no shot, and is just not a good enough offensive player to be on the 3rd line of a cup winning team. 3rd liners must be threats, and he isnt really one. he had 1 goal in 18 PO games last year, and 2 goals in 50 career PO games (with a -8), and he wasnt playing with junk mates with pavs on his line. Unless he makes a huge huge stride this year, he should not be a 3rd liner.

dejsardins, murray, and the rest of the guys who have spent significant time in the NHL are pretty known commodities. Solid 4th liners who may chip in a goal here and there and add a bit of energy and toughness.

The sharks still need at least one 15-20 goal scoring forward to create a 3rd line with respectability, and that assumes zero injuries. Likely, dougie needs two of those kind of forwards by PO time. There is ample time for him to do and he has the cap space (over 4M functionally), so I would expect him to make those moves when the time is right.

In the meantime, it's no big harm to keep the cap space for now, give some PO tryouts to guys like dumont, drury, etc., and go at with the current roster. This team, as it is, is still likely in the top 5 of the west, so it's no big harm allowing some healthy competition for the bottom 5 forward slots and seeing if anyone comes out golden. An unexpected rookie explosion could be just what the doctor ordered for getting this club over the hump.

 

[abaskin18]

ZEROOOOOO cause they wont win. They are gonna be rolling only 2 lines that can score and Havlet is a big question mark. No 3rd & 4th make them the new Blackhawks (loook what they turned into ater the cup season & they lost the 3rd & 4th lines). Because they already have the D, if they fail, DWil will try & improve the forwards next offseason by giving up D. They have alternated/traded off scoring & D multiple times. D sucks, get D lose scoring, scoring sucks, get scoring lose D, D sucks, get D lose scoring etc etc rinse repeat.

Sharks are the Chicago Cubs of hockey, except that management actually tries to win. Only prob is they have no clue how to put together the right right formula of players to win big.

Realistically, I dont see the Sharks hoisting the cup til this batch of players/coaches/GMs runs its course and are slowing replaced (Not that I dont like the players & staff, cause I do, so its not a knock to them, they just cant get it done for whatever reason)

Good lord. I was only kidding about this thread being titled Window to Whine.

 

[filosofy29]

I feel like no matter what happens the fan base will find something to whine about. I don't foresee that window ever closing in my lifetime.

Oh, my bad, you said window to WIN... 3 years with this core.

lol, well stated.

No, because the Cubs franchise has been around since 1876 and haven't been to a World Series since 1945 and haven't won one since 1908. And since their last WS appearance 66 years ago they've made the playoffs a whopping 6 times winning a grand total of 9 playoff games, 6 of those wins coming in one postseason.

The Sharks, on the other hand, have only been around 20 years, have made the playoffs 14 times and have 6 division titles. They've been to the playoffs 6 straight seasons, 7 if you don't count the lockout. And, like Cmon said, have assembled the best roster I can ever remember them having with the moves this offseason. We, as Sharks fans, have not suffered anything near what Cubs fans have suffered.

Even better said. Look Likewall, we're all frustrated, but equating the Sharks/fans struggles to the Cubs/fans struggles is like saying that the Empire State Building is a lot like my office building in that they both have 4 walls and a lot of windows. Most Cubs fans have been born and have passed away without a Championship in their lifetime. The Sharks have been around 20 years. I get why you're frustrated, but your analogy is terrible.....unless you can see into the future 80 years.

 

[Cbrower91]

Stranger things have happened. Weber is obviously not satisfied in nashville and if the preds fall out of the PO contention, they could entertain offers for weber. They let timmonen walk. Traded Franson (who looks pretty darn good). Zidlicky, Hamhuis... the list is long and with Suter and rinne coming up on UFA status, along with weber as a RFA for 1 more year, nashville is gunna have some serious decisions. I dunno if they can dish out the cash to keep all three of those guys, and I'm sure they would rather get something in return for them.

Weber may well be available at trade deadline time. The price will be steep, but it is possible and we know dougie is not afraid to dish out big money and big prices for star players. he went big for jumbo, boyle, heater, now burns. He could deal pavs, vlasic, and 2 1st rounders for weber later on, then resign him to 5 years at 7.5M per year and be set on defense for the next 5 years.

Anything is possible if the deal makes sense...

They actually traded Timmonen to the flyers, i think he was part of the Forsberg deal

 

[filosofy29]

They actually traded Timmonen to the flyers, i think he was part of the Forsberg deal

Nashville traded the rights Timmonen and Harntell to the Flyers if I recall correctly.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Thats exacly what I ment, and have to disagree with the last line of this statment as I felt the 04 team roster was a much better all around stong in every position and line then the current... And even tho I erased the part of you post bout Handzus, Ill add what I aready said when they signed him. The guy is a bum. McGinn is a bum. I like Mitchell a ton, but he reminds me of a poor mans Viktor Kozlov when he was a shark - the parts are there, the tools just cant put it together.

Mitchell did a good job putting it all together at the end of last year. His play down the stretch last season was surprisingly good considering the guy has cinder blocks for hands.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Handzus. I'm a bit shocked you don't like him with as much as you say you like Ricci. They play exactly the same dirty nosed, board grinding, style of game only Handzus has a few more teeth.

 

[sjrules99]

Nashville traded the rights Timmonen and Harntell to the Flyers if I recall correctly.

yeah, i think for a 1st rounder... I remember thinking wow, trading the rights to two UFA's that you arent going to sign and getting a 1st rounder in return was pretty impressive for Nashville. Basically, though, that's letting him walk.

the forsberg deal was for upshall, parent, a 1st and a 3rd. Totally separate deal (that didnt turn out so hot as upshall a real quality player) and forsberg sucked. Goes to show that deadline deals for big name to-be-ufa's that come at major prices usually hurt more than help.

 

[SJVP408]

Mitchell did a good job putting it all together at the end of last year. His play down the stretch last season was surprisingly good considering the guy has cinder blocks for hands.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Handzus. I'm a bit shocked you don't like him with as much as you say you like Ricci. They play exactly the same dirty nosed, board grinding, style of game only Handzus has a few more teeth.

Hahah.....hair do goes to Ricci!

 

[sjrules99]

Mitchell did a good job putting it all together at the end of last year. His play down the stretch last season was surprisingly good considering the guy has cinder blocks for hands.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Handzus. I'm a bit shocked you don't like him with as much as you say you like Ricci. They play exactly the same dirty nosed, board grinding, style of game only Handzus has a few more teeth.

To me, mitchell looked somewhat reasonable for the final 16 or so games prior to the PO's. In that stretch, he had 13 points and the chemistry with wellwood and pavs was nice. However, excluding a 7 game stretch from 3/10-3/23, when mitchell had 5 goals and 8 points, he was pretty much useless. He had just 4 goals in his other 59 games and including the PO's, he had 5 goals in his other 77 games. And, of course, the PK was terrible all season, so mitchell was no help there.

basically, he is not a respectable third line threat, and will produce even less without having pavs on his line to make the plays. And when pavs wasnt effective, mitchell was worse than useless. Against van and det, a total of 12 games, mitchell had 1 assist, -3, with the PK completely falling apart (mitchell's primary area).

I sure would love to see him become something more, but aside from brief little stretch in march that dissipated in april/may, Mitchell has shown very little to warrant 15 mins/game on the 3rd line.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

To me, mitchell looked somewhat reasonable for the final 16 or so games prior to the PO's. In that stretch, he had 13 points and the chemistry with wellwood and pavs was nice. However, excluding a 7 game stretch from 3/10-3/23, when mitchell had 5 goals and 8 points, he was pretty much useless. He had just 4 goals in his other 59 games and including the PO's, he had 5 goals in his other 77 games. And, of course, the PK was terrible all season, so mitchell was no help there.

basically, he is not a respectable third line threat, and will produce even less without having pavs on his line to make the plays. And when pavs wasnt effective, mitchell was worse than useless. Against van and det, a total of 12 games, mitchell had 1 assist, -3, with the PK completely falling apart (mitchell's primary area).

I sure would love to see him become something more, but aside from brief little stretch in march that dissipated in april/may, Mitchell has shown very little to warrant 15 mins/game on the 3rd line.

Mitchell wasn't a primary PKer last year. He was a 4th forward pairing during the regular season. He started the PO's in that same role until Nichols was hurt and Heatley, Couture, and Mayers started sucking something major on the PK. If you go to behindthenet.com (Stat Geek site) and look up the stats Mitchell actually posted the 2nd best GA per Shorthanded icetime on the team behind Thornton.

Mitchell's speed was the primary catalyst for that line with Wellwoods puck handling ability being not far behind. Pavelski benifited just as much from the other two, if not more, than they did from him. Lets not forget that Mitchell was the only one of the three that showed anything left in the tank in the confrence finals. With Handzus and another respectable 2nd/3rd line tweener I can see Mitchell putting up a 15g 30p season which are fair numbers for a 3rd liner.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Hahah.....hair do goes to Ricci!

I don't know. It's pretty close.

 

[SJVP408]

I don't know. It's pretty close.

Lol.

Wavy hair (Ricci) > squiggly curls (Zeus)

 

[Cbrower91]

Lol.

Wavy hair (Ricci) > squiggly curls (Zeus)

They are both missing a Y chromosome

 

[sjrules99]

Mitchell wasn't a primary PKer last year. He was a 4th forward pairing during the regular season. He started the PO's in that same role until Nichols was hurt and Heatley, Couture, and Mayers started sucking something major on the PK. If you go to behindthenet.com (Stat Geek site) and look up the stats Mitchell actually posted the 2nd best GA per Shorthanded icetime on the team behind Thornton.

Mitchell's speed was the primary catalyst for that line with Wellwoods puck handling ability being not far behind. Pavelski benifited just as much from the other two, if not more, than they did from him. Lets not forget that Mitchell was the only one of the three that showed anything left in the tank in the confrence finals. With Handzus and another respectable 2nd/3rd line tweener I can see Mitchell putting up a 15g 30p season which are fair numbers for a 3rd liner.

For fear of entrenching my stat-loving reputation, I still have to say, this site is awesome...

You seem correct about the GA/60 minutes shorthanded. Jumbo was pretty awesome at under 4 goals per 60 PK minutes. That's impressively good and jammer, nichol, pickles, and demers were pretty awful in that regard (heater, and cooch not far behind). Pavs was actually the forward with the most goals scored against with him on the PK, though he had among the most PK minutes, so his numbers arent as bad.

I'm not so sure I agree completely that mitchell was the key to that line's success during that short span. However, if he is able to PK well, and he can put in 15 goals, and 30+ points, then he would be a viable 3rd liner and dougie would only need one more.

Still, I just dont see it with how hard it is for him to control the puck and how easily he is muscled off it. I suppose the first month or two should show a lot of whether he is a legit forward or not.

 

[sjrules99]

interesting note though, torrey mitchell start 44% of his PK shifts in the offensive zone (by far the most). Compare that to, say, patty who never started a single PK shift in the O zone. And, that 44% does not include the shifts started in the neutral zone as well. Likely, far more than half of his PK shifts started outside of his own zome.

I'm sure that was a very large part for his better PK numbers. he bascially got to spend the first 10+ seconds of his PK shifts not in his own zone, so alot of his PK time was not actually killing penalties per se. In fact, mitchell only took 5 defensive zone draws on the PK throughout the entire playoffs. I think that says a lot.

Jumbo started only 2.4% in the O-zone (marleau had none), so I'm sure he spent a whole lot more time actually killing penalties making his team leading effectiveness all the more impressive. He and marleau combined for 94 SH defensive zone draws.

 

[Cbrower91]

interesting note though, torrey mitchell start 44% of his PK shifts in the offensive zone (by far the most). Compare that to, say, patty who never started a single PK shift in the O zone. And, that 44% does not include the shifts started in the neutral zone as well. Likely, far more than half of his PK shifts started outside of his own zome.

I'm sure that was a very large part for his better PK numbers. he bascially got to spend the first 10+ seconds of his PK shifts not in his own zone, so alot of his PK time was not actually killing penalties per se. In fact, mitchell only took 5 defensive zone draws on the PK throughout the entire playoffs. I think that says a lot.

Jumbo started only 2.4% in the O-zone (marleau had none), so I'm sure he spent a whole lot more time actually killing penalties making his team leading effectiveness all the more impressive. He and marleau combined for 94 SH defensive zone draws.

Never started a shift in the o zone and 44% in the d zone, you know. How horrendously. Misleading that is? Does that stat even take into account line changes?

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

It's now or never. They went all in with the Burns trade. I think they gave up too much for a guy with a concussion history. Hopefully it works out.

 

[23sharks]

No, because the Cubs franchise has been around since 1876 and haven't been to a World Series since 1945 and haven't won one since 1908. And since their last WS appearance 66 years ago they've made the playoffs a whopping 6 times winning a grand total of 9 playoff games, 6 of those wins coming in one postseason.

The Sharks, on the other hand, have only been around 20 years, have made the playoffs 14 times and have 6 division titles. They've been to the playoffs 6 straight seasons, 7 if you don't count the lockout. And, like Cmon said, have assembled the best roster I can ever remember them having with the moves this offseason. We, as Sharks fans, have not suffered anything near what Cubs fans have suffered.[/QUOTE

Totally agree. I grew up near Chicago and have always been a Cubs fan. The only teams they had that actually had a chance were in 84 and 89. Other than that, they were usually one of the worst teams in baseball.
On the other hand, the Sharks put a very good team on the ice year after year. The past 2 seasons, they've been a top 4 team, and I think this is the best team they have ever had.

 

[sjrules99]

Never started a shift in the o zone and 44% in the d zone, you know. How horrendously. Misleading that is? Does that stat even take into account line changes?

no no, 44% started in the O-zone for mitchell. Probably that's because he is on the 2nd or 3rd PK unit, so he jumps on mostly after a clear (hence the puck is in the O-zone). however, that means that you start your shift when the puck is behind the other team's net. Basically, that means it takes a solid 10 seconds just to get the puck back into the sharks' zone and it's a far easier clear and far easier to break up the play when you force the other team to enter the zone or dump it in rather than have the FO in the zone.

So yeah, mitchell's effectiveness on the PK is definitely overblown.

Even during the regular season, he started his PK shifts with the puck in the other team's zone 25% of the time (most of any PKer other than heater).

it's a major disadvantage to your PK numbers when you have to be the first PK unit because you automatically have a draw in your own zone with the other team's #1 PP unit against you.

This actually underscores how solid Pavs and patty were last year at PK work (they both started in the O-zone around 3% of the time.) and had 543 Defensive zone PK draws combined with just 12 O-zone draws. They were clearly the #1 PK unit.

 

[SJVP408]

This will be the first year in like 3 seasons (?) that Mitchell isn't rehabbing his knee so I'm kinda anxious to see how he will come into this season prepared. Plus it's his UFA year so athletes always prepare themselves that much more.

The guy I'm concerned about is McGinn. He needs some confidence because I feel if his career is that as a 4th line banger, that's a waste. He needs to be properly coached to gain some more overall hockey IQ.