Seahawks Game

[Schmoopy1000]

I’m trying real hard to stay out of this. It’s not really worth it. People are going to back who they want to. There are so many ways to spin stats. If u look hard enough you can find a few to support your argument whichever way you want.

Stats to us are like Facts to Lawyers!

We can make them say whatever we want!

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

Stats to us are like Facts to Lawyers!

We can make them say whatever we want!

Exactly.

 

[jarntt]

If you guys want to talk about Tony Romo I'm sure there is a message board for announcers. You can compare him to Aikman and Collinsworth and all other old players. He is not a Football player.

 

[es4m11]

. Witten was a 2x Pro Bowler before Romo was even a thought for starting QB in Dallas. Witten did not need Romo. You’re the one that’s far off. Dez and Romo just like Dak and Dez got off to a rocky start. It took years before Romo and Dez clicked. This is revionist history. Miles Austin for one year was a top 5 WR in the NFL. Romo did not make him. Injuries ruined him. Laurent Robinson is legit the only WR that Romo “made.”

Dak does not always make safe throws. Dak is just better at not turning the ball over than Romo was. Only one QB threw into more coverage than Dak last year. Dak is one of the best tight window passers in the NFL. Garrett was calling plays the majority of Romo career. Linehan is way more conservative and inept at playcalling than Garrett ever was.

Int% is a great indicator of accuracy. Romo was launching interceptions and interceptable passes left and right early in his career. You guys are trying to rewrite history just because Romo isn’t playing anymore. There were stretches when the offense played bad during Romo era as well. That’s how Garrett lost playcalling duties.

Romo after 10 years of starting is no question a better QB than Dak after two years of starting. But it took Romo years to become reality good. He wasn’t really good off the bat. His weapons and Garretts playcalling back in 2007 when it was a breath of fresh air and not yet predictable was helping Romo be very successful. The more teams caught onto Garrett, the more mediocre the offense became the more we finished 8-8 and wasted Romo’s prime years when he became really good.

I am not making the argument that Witten was not great. He is a HOF in his own right. But you can not make the argument that Witten was not better for having Romo. It's flat out disingenuous, and you know it.

It took years for Romo and Dez to click? Try one, his rookie season. In Dez's second season he put up 928 yards and 9 TDs, catching 61% of his targets, that is pretty good for any second year WR. In his 3rd year Dez had an All-Pro caliber year notching 1382 yards and 12 TDs. So much for revisionist history. And to hear Dez tell it, it was Romo driving him to put in all the extra work after practice perfecting the back shoulder fade that made him a great WR for a stretch of time. Make no mistake about it that one throw/route made that duo what they were. That one route was the utmost reason defenses had to double team Dez with a Safety over the top because CBs could not possibly cover the back shoulder fade and the go route at the same time. Once Dak took over Dez was never the same because in two years he never came close to being able to even adequately throw that route, let alone master it as Romo had.

I'm gonna need sources on your claim of Dak's throwing into coverage.

As far as him not turning it over, that is largely propped up by his rookie campaign which is looking more and more like an outlier everyday. It's interesting you say that when Romo was young Garrett's offense was still fresh and catching people off guard which helped Romo succeed, but you don't apply that same logic to Dak's great rookie season -- now that teams have tape on Dak he is far less effective in the season plus since his rookie campaign. I'll concede that Romo had better weapons at TE/WR, but you must also concede young Romo never had anything close to a Oline or a running game like Dak currently has/had. Young Romo never had near the amount of clean time in the pocket that Dak has enjoyed, I'd say that is as important if not more so than a talent upgrade on the outside.

As far as dismissing INT% in this comparison between Romo, it's pretty simple for me, Romo threw down field way more often. This is evidenced in yards per attempt, Romo's first 3 years he recorded 8.6, 8.1, and 7.7 YPA. To this point Dak has recorded 8.0, 6.8, 5.7(so far in 2018) YPA. This is important to note because it indicates Dak is throwing shorter passes, which obviously means the ball spends less time in the air therefor defenders have less time to react and make a play on the ball -- in other words, safer. Dak's INT% in 2016 was clearly an outlier, his second season was better than Romo's 2nd season only slightly. The fact that Dak throws fewer passes per game and more of them are of the shorter variety while Romo threw more passes per game and threw more of them downfield should naturally lead to Romo throwing a few more INTs than Prescott and thus a slightly higher INT%. In this instance what that information (higher int%) does not infer is a more accurate thrower of the football, only that Dak is less of a gambler than Romo. If your eyeballs are telling you that Dak is a more accurate thrower than Romo, you should maybe want to get them checked.

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

If you guys want to talk about Tony Romo I'm sure there is a message board for announcers. You can compare him to Aikman and Collinsworth and all other old players. He is not a Football player.

U can’t be serious with this. You mentioned his name. We talked about Septien last week. Witten/ Dez are brought up all the time.

 

[tomodach10]

It would be a big mistake for us to trade a 1st round pick for earl thomas. The Cowboys look terrible and will be lucky to win 5 or 6 games if this continues and lots of injuries happen. The Cowboys dropped 2 games to average teams. The panthers and seahawks don't look like playoff teams to me. I expected better play from Dak and the offense.

But both are hard to beat at home.

 

[Earl Stevens]

I am not making the argument that Witten was not great. He is a HOF in his own right. But you can not make the argument that Witten was not better for having Romo. It's flat out disingenuous, and you know it.

It took years for Romo and Dez to click? Try one, his rookie season. In Dez's second season he put up 928 yards and 9 TDs, catching 61% of his targets, that is pretty good for any second year WR. In his 3rd year Dez had an All-Pro caliber year notching 1382 yards and 12 TDs. So much for revisionist history. And to hear Dez tell it, it was Romo driving him to put in all the extra work after practice perfecting the back shoulder fade that made him a great WR for a stretch of time. Make no mistake about it that one throw/route made that duo what they were. That one route was the utmost reason defenses had to double team Dez with a Safety over the top because CBs could not possibly cover the back shoulder fade and the go route at the same time. Once Dak took over Dez was never the same because in two years he never came close to being able to even adequately throw that route, let alone master it as Romo had.

I'm gonna need sources on your claim of Dak's throwing into coverage.

As far as him not turning it over, that is largely propped up by his rookie campaign which is looking more and more like an outlier everyday. It's interesting you say that when Romo was young Garrett's offense was still fresh and catching people off guard which helped Romo succeed, but you don't apply that same logic to Dak's great rookie season -- now that teams have tape on Dak he is far less effective in the season plus since his rookie campaign. I'll concede that Romo had better weapons at TE/WR, but you must also concede young Romo never had anything close to a Oline or a running game like Dak currently has/had. Young Romo never had near the amount of clean time in the pocket that Dak has enjoyed, I'd say that is as important if not more so than a talent upgrade on the outside.

As far as dismissing INT% in this comparison between Romo, it's pretty simple for me, Romo threw down field way more often. This is evidenced in yards per attempt, Romo's first 3 years he recorded 8.6, 8.1, and 7.7 YPA. To this point Dak has recorded 8.0, 6.8, 5.7(so far in 2018) YPA. This is important to note because it indicates Dak is throwing shorter passes, which obviously means the ball spends less time in the air therefor defenders have less time to react and make a play on the ball -- in other words, safer. Dak's INT% in 2016 was clearly an outlier, his second season was better than Romo's 2nd season only slightly. The fact that Dak throws fewer passes per game and more of them are of the shorter variety while Romo threw more passes per game and threw more of them downfield should naturally lead to Romo throwing a few more INTs than Prescott and thus a slightly higher INT%. In this instance what that information (higher int%) does not infer is a more accurate thrower of the football, only that Dak is less of a gambler than Romo. If your eyeballs are telling you that Dak is a more accurate thrower than Romo, you should maybe want to get them checked.

You’re splitting hairs. Romo and Dez didn’t click initially. You can split hairs over years all you want but my point was that Romo and Dez didn’t click starting out and Dez was heavily criticized for not knowing the playbook. I’m not making that up. Yards don’t always tell the story anyway. Cowboys played catch up alot in 2012 and finished 8-8. Romo led the league in picks.

Idk why this is so hard for you to understand. Witten was gonna be HOF with or without Romo.

Daks turnover rate is not propped up by his rookie campaign. He throws way fewer interceptable passes than Romo period, even with lesser options. Not even debatable. The Cowboys in 2016 succeeded because the supporting cast was decent around a QB who was efficient and didn’t turn the ball over. Dak made plenty of throws downfield when he had weapons and he did it without the boneheaded interceptions. I definitely much rather have 2016 Dak over 2006 Romo. Dak had a better game in a playoff loss than Romo ever did.

Romo threw down the field more often because he had way better weapons and was a gunslinger. 2014 Romo was a top 3 QB. If we had that Romo for 10 years, we make multiple deep playoff runs. And speaking of 2014, the Oline and running game was best in football. How can you say Romo never had what Dak had in 16? Yes, he did and arguably better.

You say Romo throws more picks because he passed a lot more. I would say Dak would pass down the field more if he passed a lot more and had HOF weapons and he would do it with less turnovers. I think Dak is the kind of QB you need if you want to consistently win. Romo is better for fantasy football. Dak went 9-7 last year despite all the criticism and arguably should have went 11-5. He’s a winning QB when the cast on offense is decent. He has shit this year. Worse than Romo ever had. Maybe even worse than Aikman had after Irvin injury.

 

[tomodach10]

I am not making the argument that Witten was not great. He is a HOF in his own right. But you can not make the argument that Witten was not better for having Romo. It's flat out disingenuous, and you know it.

It took years for Romo and Dez to click? Try one, his rookie season. In Dez's second season he put up 928 yards and 9 TDs, catching 61% of his targets, that is pretty good for any second year WR. In his 3rd year Dez had an All-Pro caliber year notching 1382 yards and 12 TDs. So much for revisionist history. And to hear Dez tell it, it was Romo driving him to put in all the extra work after practice perfecting the back shoulder fade that made him a great WR for a stretch of time. Make no mistake about it that one throw/route made that duo what they were. That one route was the utmost reason defenses had to double team Dez with a Safety over the top because CBs could not possibly cover the back shoulder fade and the go route at the same time. Once Dak took over Dez was never the same because in two years he never came close to being able to even adequately throw that route, let alone master it as Romo had.

I'm gonna need sources on your claim of Dak's throwing into coverage.

As far as him not turning it over, that is largely propped up by his rookie campaign which is looking more and more like an outlier everyday. It's interesting you say that when Romo was young Garrett's offense was still fresh and catching people off guard which helped Romo succeed, but you don't apply that same logic to Dak's great rookie season -- now that teams have tape on Dak he is far less effective in the season plus since his rookie campaign. I'll concede that Romo had better weapons at TE/WR, but you must also concede young Romo never had anything close to a Oline or a running game like Dak currently has/had. Young Romo never had near the amount of clean time in the pocket that Dak has enjoyed, I'd say that is as important if not more so than a talent upgrade on the outside.

As far as dismissing INT% in this comparison between Romo, it's pretty simple for me, Romo threw down field way more often. This is evidenced in yards per attempt, Romo's first 3 years he recorded 8.6, 8.1, and 7.7 YPA. To this point Dak has recorded 8.0, 6.8, 5.7(so far in 2018) YPA. This is important to note because it indicates Dak is throwing shorter passes, which obviously means the ball spends less time in the air therefor defenders have less time to react and make a play on the ball -- in other words, safer. Dak's INT% in 2016 was clearly an outlier, his second season was better than Romo's 2nd season only slightly. The fact that Dak throws fewer passes per game and more of them are of the shorter variety while Romo threw more passes per game and threw more of them downfield should naturally lead to Romo throwing a few more INTs than Prescott and thus a slightly higher INT%. In this instance what that information (higher int%) does not infer is a more accurate thrower of the football, only that Dak is less of a gambler than Romo. If your eyeballs are telling you that Dak is a more accurate thrower than Romo, you should maybe want to get them checked.

Absolutely the best post I have read!!! Bravo for being so thorough!!!

 

[Earl Stevens]

Prescott ranked sixth in interceptable pass rate, throwing one every 29 attempts, despite throwing into the thick of the coverage more often than most quarterbacks. 77.2 percent of Prescott’s passes went into the 1-20 yard range, the second-highest rate in the league behind only Trevor Siemian. Alex Smith, in Andy Reid’s beautifully designed offense, threw only 62 percent of his passes into the 1-20 yard range.

Where Prescott excelled in 2017 was mentally. He showed off full command of his offense, making smart pre-snap adjustments while calling full-blown audibles when necessary. The Cowboys offense would be much better suited to letting Prescott call and adjust plays more than Garrett who appears to be completely out of his depth in regards to making adjustments during games. That Falcons game where his backup left tackle never got any help highlighted that.

Prescott had his struggles at different points in the season, but for the most part he was an excellent quarterback last season. His growth from his first season to his second wasn’t matched by production because of the lack of quality around him. The offensive line lost multiple pieces before more players were hurt and the receiving corps was always built to be complementary to a dominant running game. His receivers needed to get open off of the run threat/great pass protection, they couldn’t get open within the timing of routes.

 

[Earl Stevens]

That was on Prescott last year, a year where 90% of the fan base think he regressed. This year, the Cowboys lost Frederick, and after 3 weeks, the weapons and Oline have been even worse than last year. It’s only been three weeks and the guys like Gallup can get better and maybe we get Frederick back so the pocket can stop collapsing, but yea. Maybe this is why Dak is struggling. They’ve also completely iced out Rod Smith for no reason. We need to stop trying to make Zeke into something he’s not. His receiving routes are horrible and he creates no space like Kamara does.. Rod is a much better receiving option. The “holding the ball too long, not throwing down the field” arguments hold no weight. Dak is literally playing with shit after three weeks.

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

I can’t believe some of the stuff I’m reading here. I have always thought Aikman had pinpoint accuracy and one of the smartest QBs to ever lace them up. His 3 % INT rate for his career though makes me question my thoughts

 

[jarntt]

U can’t be serious with this. You mentioned his name. We talked about Septien last week. Witten/ Dez are brought up all the time.

No, I'm not serious. don't be so sensitive...

 

[jarntt]

I can’t believe some of the stuff I’m reading here. I have always thought Aikman had pinpoint accuracy and one of the smartest QBs to ever lace them up. His 3 % INT rate for his career though makes me question my thoughts

Aikman is a man amongst boys in this conversation...

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

Aikman is a man amongst boys in this conversation...

Not according to Earl logic

 

[es4m11]

You’re splitting hairs. Romo and Dez didn’t click initially. You can split hairs over years all you want but my point was that Romo and Dez didn’t click starting out and Dez was heavily criticized for not knowing the playbook. I’m not making that up. Yards don’t always tell the story anyway. Cowboys played catch up alot in 2012 and finished 8-8. Romo led the league in picks.

Idk why this is so hard for you to understand. Witten was gonna be HOF with or without Romo.

Daks turnover rate is not propped up by his rookie campaign. He throws way fewer interceptable passes than Romo period, even with lesser options. Not even debatable. The Cowboys in 2016 succeeded because the supporting cast was decent around a QB who was efficient and didn’t turn the ball over. Dak made plenty of throws downfield when he had weapons and he did it without the boneheaded interceptions. I definitely much rather have 2016 Dak over 2006 Romo. Dak had a better game in a playoff loss than Romo ever did.

Romo threw down the field more often because he had way better weapons and was a gunslinger. 2014 Romo was a top 3 QB. If we had that Romo for 10 years, we make multiple deep playoff runs. And speaking of 2014, the Oline and running game was best in football. How can you say Romo never had what Dak had in 16? Yes, he did and arguably better.

You say Romo throws more picks because he passed a lot more. I would say Dak would pass down the field more if he passed a lot more and had HOF weapons and he would do it with less turnovers. I think Dak is the kind of QB you need if you want to consistently win. Romo is better for fantasy football. Dak went 9-7 last year despite all the criticism and arguably should have went 11-5. He’s a winning QB when the cast on offense is decent. He has shit this year. Worse than Romo ever had. Maybe even worse than Aikman had after Irvin injury.

99% of WR come into the league and don't light it up their rookie year, why is that a point of contention for you regarding Dez and Romo? You were the one who said that Dez and Romo took years to finally click, and that was demonstrably wrong because Dez had a great season in year 2 despite being in an offense with a lot of mouths to feed.

Regarding Romo and Dak, I was comparing their first 3 years only. Don't move the goal posts by bringing Romo and the '14 Cowboys into the mix. Romo in the first three years of his career never had a line as good as Dak's and Romo's running game during that time was solid, but Zeke in tandem with this Oline group is another level. So no, Romo early in his career did not have what Dak had in terms of an Oline and running game. Early in his career Romo may have had better weapons in the receiving corp, but he never had the time in the pocket that Dak has had for most of his young career.

Second in the very post you quoted I said Witten is a HOF in his own right. Why would you then say I don't understand that Witten would have been a HOF anyway? Do you just block out the things that don't fit your narrative?

You're having a hard time keeping a coherent argument together now. I think we are done here.

 

[jarntt]

Not according to Earl logic

According to any logic

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

Honestly Aikman sucks. I’m tired of him making bad comments about Dak.

 

[jarntt]

Honestly Aikman sucks. I’m tired of him making bad comments about Dak.

I'm talking about the QB not the announcer. I don't listen to what announcers say during the game too much.

 

[jarntt]

 

[ROMOTOOWENS]

I could be wrong but I thought he went in on the drive that Hawks just pounded right down our throats and he was making every tackle after 5 yards were gained.