scenarios for a cousins trade

[PDay8810]

Actually dont need any one to "Have my back". I have always maintained my own ability to have my own opinion. The concept of Bobert being a pain in the ass for the rest of the division for the next ten years still remains in place. However Im not a fanboy willing to make excuses for any player that is playing poorly. As of right now, the trade looks to be leaning towards a mistake based on play by Bobert, and what the trade cost us. Is it salvagable?? Sure it is. But as it stands right now my honest opinion is, its leaning towards a mistake. If his level of play continues to decline I hope like hell we arent stuck with inconsistent for the next ten years. If it improves, the original IF still stands. But Im one of the few around here who didnt defend Campbell, McNabb, and I wont defend poor play and excuses for Bob simply because we made the trade for him.

Clear on that?? And it still remains that as a Cowboys fan your worst fear is that he does develop and you were wrong, Skins fans worst fear is the trade was a mistake. Nothing on that front has changed.

feel better?
Truth is....nobody talked more shit this summer than you & bovey. You both assumed Bob's greatness based on one season and now YOU wanna call a mulligan and put yourself above other redskin fans for not defending poor play. Shoot dude....all I see is the wind changing directions.

Have a nice offseason

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Agree. I'm just trying to say the same thing Joy said. Both equations are right. Just depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty person.[/QUOTE

LY I think more WAS fans were half full.

No dog in this fight, but I saw the entire career of Vick in ATL and now in PHI, and I see some of the same things being employed in WAS with RG3.

Vick may not have been the superstar he was in ATL if he'd stayed under Dan Reeves, but he would've been a better QB. They ran the same offense as Chris Chandler did with a few bootleg run/pass option plays for Vick. The new regime (Mora Jr./Knapp) basically let Vick run what he was successful with in college. It worked for a few years but the guy never developed as a pro QB really until he left.

WAS probably doesn't make the playoffs LY without RG3 making a lot of plays with his legs...it's great to have 4.3 speed but being a playmaker is not what the QB is all about in the NFL...you need to get the ball to the playmakers. If the Shanahans started him out as a pro style QB, he would not have had as good a rookie campaign, but imo would be further along as a pro QB.

Bottom line...the reason Luck was the clear cut #1 guy LY, and is having a pretty good 2nd season was he played in a pro style OFC in a college. So the learning curve should be lessened to some degree. RG3 needs to learn the QB position (making progression reads, pre-snap knowing where you have 1 on 1 coverage, know where the blitz is coming from, etc.) at this level.

 

[gkekoa]

Being a playmaker at the QB position allows for gaps in defenses to develop, mostly behind the LBs, for "playmakers" to get open.


It's that added dimension that makes other players around RG3 better.

 

[skinsdad62]

Actually dont need any one to "Have my back". I have always maintained my own ability to have my own opinion. The concept of Bobert being a pain in the ass for the rest of the division for the next ten years still remains in place. However Im not a fanboy willing to make excuses for any player that is playing poorly. As of right now, the trade looks to be leaning towards a mistake based on play by Bobert, and what the trade cost us. Is it salvagable?? Sure it is. But as it stands right now my honest opinion is, its leaning towards a mistake. If his level of play continues to decline I hope like hell we arent stuck with inconsistent for the next ten years. If it improves, the original IF still stands. But Im one of the few around here who didnt defend Campbell, McNabb, and I wont defend poor play and excuses for Bob simply because we made the trade for him.

Clear on that?? And it still remains that as a Cowboys fan your worst fear is that he does develop and you were wrong, Skins fans worst fear is the trade was a mistake. Nothing on that front has changed.

why do you assume it will decline ? and why call him bobert ? seems to me you have made up your mind on his failure

i personally see no reason why he wont be a stellar qb for us

and you need to know the difference between a reason and an excuse is shark

next year the injury is an EXCUSE . this year not so

 

[Sharkinva]

why do you assume it will decline ? and why call him bobert ? seems to me you have made up your mind on his failure

i personally see no reason why he wont be a stellar qb for us

and you need to know the difference between a reason and an excuse is shark

next year the injury is an EXCUSE . this year not so

Where did I assume it will decline. I simply point out that right now his play has declined and appears to be declining. I also state out that while it could improve, right now Im not seeing evidence of that.

As for the Bobert thing, thats just me being the surely prick I can sometimes be because i know it will rub some the wrong way. You know me well enough to know I enjoy the subtle jab from time to time.



And I consider the Injury and excuse at this point because every one from Mr Griffin himself to the Surgeons General proclaimed him fit and ready to play on day one. So now to fall back and say, well he wasnt really ready sounds rather excuse making to me.

Bottom line is, over the past ten years you have never known me to make excuses for poor or marginal play no matter who the player was. I was adamant when this trade was made that it either had the potential to be a great move or a utter disaster, and leaned heavily towards the disaster front. Right now with his inconsistent play, the coaches job in question and in light of what the trade actually cost... any sane person would question the move. At least to some degree.

 

[j_y19]

Agree. I'm just trying to say the same thing Joy said. Both equations are right. Just depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty person.[/QUOTE

LY I think more WAS fans were half full.

No dog in this fight, but I saw the entire career of Vick in ATL and now in PHI, and I see some of the same things being employed in WAS with RG3.

Vick may not have been the superstar he was in ATL if he'd stayed under Dan Reeves, but he would've been a better QB. They ran the same offense as Chris Chandler did with a few bootleg run/pass option plays for Vick. The new regime (Mora Jr./Knapp) basically let Vick run what he was successful with in college. It worked for a few years but the guy never developed as a pro QB really until he left.

WAS probably doesn't make the playoffs LY without RG3 making a lot of plays with his legs...it's great to have 4.3 speed but being a playmaker is not what the QB is all about in the NFL...you need to get the ball to the playmakers. If the Shanahans started him out as a pro style QB, he would not have had as good a rookie campaign, but imo would be further along as a pro QB.

Bottom line...the reason Luck was the clear cut #1 guy LY, and is having a pretty good 2nd season was he played in a pro style OFC in a college. So the learning curve should be lessened to some degree. RG3 needs to learn the QB position (making progression reads, pre-snap knowing where you have 1 on 1 coverage, know where the blitz is coming from, etc.) at this level.

So you bring up Luck as the guy that most felt would succeed the earliest in the NFL since he came from an NFL type offense in college. How's he doing this year? He's struggling, just like all young NFL QBs do. And he has had years more experience as a pocket passer and is not coming off of a serious injury that muted his development. My point being (mostly to Shark) is that he can't judge the long term success of RG3, or any young QB, by what they do in their first couple of years. It takes time and it is unrealistic on anyone's part to expect that RG3 (or Luck) was not going to experience adjustment pains. I'll bet that Wilson hits the wall at some point also. His defense and his running game have kept him somewhat protected from his "sophomore slump".

The bottom line is that RG3 has both the mental capability and physical skills to be a great QB. He can make all the throws and he is highly intelligent. There is no reason to believe that he cannot develop the skills of being an NFL QB that spends most of their time pre reading defenses and throwing from a pocket. There is also no reason to believe that he can't regain his mechanics with an off season dedicated to working on them and not on physical rehab. To say that it appears we may have made a bad choice at this point in his career is, frankly, ludicrous.

 

[Manster7588]

what a difference 10 games make.
NOW you wanna REDEAL?
what about the next 10 years that had all of Dallas shaking in their boots?

least manster continues to have your back

How is it that I have his back. I'm saying both sides can be considered correct. On top of that I am in 100 disagreement with his Paid 4 times the price" post. Just because I'm not here just to rip doesn't mean I have anyones back.

 

[skinsdad62]

Where did I assume it will decline. I simply point out that right now his play has declined and appears to be declining. I also state out that while it could improve, right now Im not seeing evidence of that.

As for the Bobert thing, thats just me being the surely prick I can sometimes be because i know it will rub some the wrong way. You know me well enough to know I enjoy the subtle jab from time to time.



And I consider the Injury and excuse at this point because every one from Mr Griffin himself to the Surgeons General proclaimed him fit and ready to play on day one. So now to fall back and say, well he wasnt really ready sounds rather excuse making to me.

Bottom line is, over the past ten years you have never known me to make excuses for poor or marginal play no matter who the player was. I was adamant when this trade was made that it either had the potential to be a great move or a utter disaster, and leaned heavily towards the disaster front. Right now with his inconsistent play, the coaches job in question and in light of what the trade actually cost... any sane person would question the move. At least to some degree.

being "cleared to play " and being your old self are 2 different things altogether and didnt dr andrews "have reservations " ?

come on shark , the guy was coming off a devastating injury in record time and because he hasnt performed in AP fashion by mid season you think its an "excuse "

are you telling me you were so blind you couldnt foresee that he would have some struggles ? it never crossed your mind ?

i mean if you cant figure out what a reason is and an excuse is then how am i to take "leaning heavy to failure "?

on minute you are telling me the o/line is garbage (which would affect his performance by the way ) while i said it wasnt as bad as believed , and now tannehill is the new savior we missed on and RG3 is headed to bustdom , oh wait leaning heavy to bustdom

you bemoan the 4 players we didnt take who surely would have rocketed us to a superbowl (or should i say 3 because one pick would be the anointed new savior tannehill)

and you fight so hard on a point, i have to wonder if your mind isnt already made up whether you admit it or not .

Luck isnt doing very well right now . wilson isnt what he was last season (but he has a better team ) and cam newton seems to have bounced back from a step back in year to to be mentioned as an MVP candidate (mentioned not actually winning ) but yet RG3 wont . he is "leaning heavy " to bustdom

 

[Sharkinva]

being "cleared to play " and being your old self are 2 different things altogether and didnt dr andrews "have reservations " ?

come on shark , the guy was coming off a devastating injury in record time and because he hasnt performed in AP fashion by mid season you think its an "excuse "

are you telling me you were so blind you couldnt foresee that he would have some struggles ? it never crossed your mind ?

i mean if you cant figure out what a reason is and an excuse is then how am i to take "leaning heavy to failure "?

on minute you are telling me the o/line is garbage (which would affect his performance by the way ) while i said it wasnt as bad as believed , and now tannehill is the new savior we missed on and RG3 is headed to bustdom , oh wait leaning heavy to bustdom

you bemoan the 4 players we didnt take who surely would have rocketed us to a superbowl (or should i say 3 because one pick would be the anointed new savior tannehill)

and you fight so hard on a point, i have to wonder if your mind isnt already made up whether you admit it or not .

Luck isnt doing very well right now . wilson isnt what he was last season (but he has a better team ) and cam newton seems to have bounced back from a step back in year to to be mentioned as an MVP candidate (mentioned not actually winning ) but yet RG3 wont . he is "leaning heavy " to bustdom

Dad... I think his struggles are of the basic type. As in, inability to read defenses. I expected him to struggle, not regress. And i admit I had higher expectations. Based on what we gave up for him. And Im not saying Tannehill was the savior. But I have long maintained, we would likely be in a better over all situation had we not used four picks on Griffin. The trade directly effected our ability to draft high probability starters for both lines and the secondary which were known weaknesses. We made the trade under the assumption we could fill in with free agency. But directly because of the trade, we could not draft cheap high talent rookies. And add in the cap hit, we couldnt get expensive free agents to boot. I havent said that he is leaning heavily towards being a bust, but if this team is rebuilding next year because the coach got fired.... the trade then becomes a direct culprit in this team taking a step back and while he may have the states to say he is doing ok, a rebuild in his third year does say the trade was a bad idea.

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad... I think his struggles are of the basic type. As in, inability to read defenses. I expected him to struggle, not regress. And i admit I had higher expectations. Based on what we gave up for him. And Im not saying Tannehill was the savior. But I have long maintained, we would likely be in a better over all situation had we not used four picks on Griffin. The trade directly effected our ability to draft high probability starters for both lines and the secondary which were known weaknesses. We made the trade under the assumption we could fill in with free agency. But directly because of the trade, we could not draft cheap high talent rookies. And add in the cap hit, we couldnt get expensive free agents to boot. I havent said that he is leaning heavily towards being a bust, but if this team is rebuilding next year because the coach got fired.... the trade then becomes a direct culprit in this team taking a step back and while he may have the states to say he is doing ok, a rebuild in his third year does say the trade was a bad idea.

i think the injury is a direct cause for all of that . he spent time rehabbing , time that could have been used in film study

and telling me you think the avg tannehill and maybe 3 starters (actually 2 at this point ) does what

you get a bus driver qb and maybe you would have filled 2 holes, if we drafted right , and that makes us better ?

and if shanahan is fired then how is RG3 some big culprit . could his hiring of substandard coaches be it ? could an impatient owner bet it ? do you think snyder thinks RG3 is a mistake ?

you said you were leaning heavy to it being a mistake . the only way that the trade is a mistake is if Rg3 is a bust . if he isnt a bust then getting players is the answer

 

[Balljim55]

I find all this very interesting. I urge you to have patience with RG3. As a Panthers fan we went through most of a difficult sophomore year with Cam. Part of his issues were learning to read defenses, learning that he doesn't have to win the game himself and maturity - mostly maturity. As he has learned these issues and others and as he has matured he has become a much better QB and is becoming a leader. He still has a ways to go and I do not think him worthy of MVP consideration as many pundits suggest but he IS learning to be a leader.
I think RG3 is mature and shows signs of leadership. No question he has the skills. To me the main issues with him are the injury and he is too worried about the RG3 brand.

 

[Sharkinva]

i think the injury is a direct cause for all of that . he spent time rehabbing , time that could have been used in film study

and telling me you think the avg tannehill and maybe 3 starters (actually 2 at this point ) does what

you get a bus driver qb and maybe you would have filled 2 holes, if we drafted right , and that makes us better ?

and if shanahan is fired then how is RG3 some big culprit . could his hiring of substandard coaches be it ? could an impatient owner bet it ? do you think snyder thinks RG3 is a mistake ?

you said you were leaning heavy to it being a mistake . the only way that the trade is a mistake is if Rg3 is a bust . if he isnt a bust then getting players is the answer

BY my count we should have gotten atleast to starters with those picks on top of a QB assuming we took Tannehill.

But seriously do you think we would be any worse off? We could have kept Rex as QB and used the two first and the second to address three spots and I doubt we would be any worse than we currently are.

Also you cant seriously think that Shanahan geting fired (as he well might right now) would actually improve this team.

Also lets face it, any thing less than two Super Bowls with Griffin at QB would be abject failure on this trade. If we traded 4 draft picks for any thing less than a future hall of famer, it was a mistake.

 

[skinsdad62]

BY my count we should have gotten atleast to starters with those picks on top of a QB assuming we took Tannehill.

But seriously do you think we would be any worse off? We could have kept Rex as QB and used the two first and the second to address three spots and I doubt we would be any worse than we currently are.

Also you cant seriously think that Shanahan geting fired (as he well might right now) would actually improve this team.

Also lets face it, any thing less than two Super Bowls with Griffin at QB would be abject failure on this trade. If we traded 4 draft picks for any thing less than a future hall of famer, it was a mistake.

no we wouldnt be worse off , without RG3 we dont sniff a divisional title

and really you want rex to be the face of the franchise ? really ?

i dont think shanny is getting fired . and if he does then everything else gets set back to include absurd time tables for superbowls

and how do you know Rg3 wont be a future HOF'r at this point ? you cant know that anymore then i can tell you he would .

how about cutting the melodrama and letting the guy play the game and learn ?

 

[ATL96Steeler]

So you bring up Luck as the guy that most felt would succeed the earliest in the NFL since he came from an NFL type offense in college. How's he doing this year? He's struggling, just like all young NFL QBs do. And he has had years more experience as a pocket passer and is not coming off of a serious injury that muted his development. My point being (mostly to Shark) is that he can't judge the long term success of RG3, or any young QB, by what they do in their first couple of years. It takes time and it is unrealistic on anyone's part to expect that RG3 (or Luck) was not going to experience adjustment pains. I'll bet that Wilson hits the wall at some point also. His defense and his running game have kept him somewhat protected from his "sophomore slump".

The bottom line is that RG3 has both the mental capability and physical skills to be a great QB. He can make all the throws and he is highly intelligent. There is no reason to believe that he cannot develop the skills of being an NFL QB that spends most of their time pre reading defenses and throwing from a pocket. There is also no reason to believe that he can't regain his mechanics with an off season dedicated to working on them and not on physical rehab. To say that it appears we may have made a bad choice at this point in his career is, frankly, ludicrous.

My thing here is RG3 was largely successful because of his athletic ability in his rookie year...that's what prompted the comparison to Vick. Luck, yes all the rookie QBs from LY are struggle a little after DCs have ample time to study their games, tendencies, etc.

There's no reason to believe...absolutely, but it takes time to change over from being a playmaker in college to learning to be a distributor in the NFL.

Ludicrous...maybe directed to Shark or maybe me...I thought it was a good move last year...still feel you guys have a good QB prospect...The OFC the Shanahans have been running to date...imo is designed to get the most production they can from the player, (Vick in ATL all over again imo) instead of developing him to be a pro QB (that can run when needed).

 

[Manster7588]

The final pick you all send to the Rams may very well be a top 5 pick. Trade looks worse if this is the case. Hell Skins may play bad enough and give Bridgewater to the Rams.