Roy Wiliams or Jim Boeheim

[TrollyMcTroller]

Gotcha.

You must have something against Boeheim I just don't see it. I don't think anybodies put him on the level of Smith, Knight, etc.

Are you kidding me? YOU JUST DID! How can you claim he's Top 10 all time, and then say nobody is putting him on the level of Knight or Smith. What are you? Nuts?

If you can't agree he's a good coach whose done a lot for Syracuse than I just don't get it. If your just arguing he's not a Dean Smith and Co I get it.

I think he's done a lot for Syracuse, and I understand the loyalty from Syracuse fans. But that doesn't mean from an objective standpoint that he's a better coach than Roy Williams. (which, in case you missed it, is the key comparison here, because some other asshat Syracuse fan went on a little bitch-fit about too many people talking about Roy)

He's been very successful, and he lacks the name of UNC, Kansas, UK, Duke, etc and look what's he done with the program, he put it on the map. With what recruits he's been able to get, it's amazing up what he's done.

And this gets to the root of my point... I see plenty of excuses for why JB isn't better than Roy, but not much along the lines of reasons why he's better.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

So I need some clarification from Cuse fans. Some say he doesn't get better recruits, because he recruits players to go with his zone, and other say that he plays zone because he can't get the best recruits.

Which is it?



Well the comparison was to Roy, and yes he gets those seeds consistently, and no, he doesn't have the early exits that Boeheim does.



All his... what? Boeheim makes it past the Sweet16 um... almost never. At least compared to the coaches you seem to want to group him with. Compare Elite Eights or Final Fours or Runners Up, or Championships to... Roy, or K or Self, or Pitino, or Izzo and you'll find that Jimmy B comes up woefully lacking in that regard. You can have all of the regular season success and Big East titles you want... People generally only care about what you do in the Big Dance, and Boeheim has underperformed. Plain and simple.



He's barely top 10 active let alone all time. You, sir, need to lay off that crack rock.

I meant top 10 active. He's absolutely top ten active right now, your crazy to think otherwise, name your top ten please.

Boeheim can't compete with the big names for top recruits, so he usually he's a few top 100s that can develop and are lanky enough to play the zone, that's all.

Dude It took a while to make Cuse a household name, the dude didn't get a coaching gig at UNC or Kansas at an older age. The only other coach who has really put there school on the map is K.

He's been to he's been to 17 SS, 3 NC games, 5 FFs. He's a good coach, that's all I've said all along. I could honestly care less about your opinion because a lot of people who actually are involved in CBB agree Boeheim has been an amazing coach. He will never need your stamp of approval because he's already had it.

Honestly I despise arguing on the internet, I could care less about it and for the most part I've stayed away from it so I will try to continue too.

So trolly unless you want to have a dance off you can go get picked last on the playground for dodgeball!!

 

[CoolStoryBro]

Are you kidding me? YOU JUST DID! How can you claim he's Top 10 all time, and then say nobody is putting him on the level of Knight or Smith. What are you? Nuts?



I think he's done a lot for Syracuse, and I understand the loyalty from Syracuse fans. But that doesn't mean from an objective standpoint that he's a better coach than Roy Williams. (which, in case you missed it, is the key comparison here, because some other asshat Syracuse fan went on a little bitch-fit about too many people talking about Roy)



And this gets to the root of my point... I see plenty of excuses for why JB isn't better than Roy, but not much along the lines of reasons why he's better.

Absolutely never talked about Dean Smith or Knight, I absolutely meant easy top 10 active right now, I think he's right outside the list of top ten all time. Just about every person involved in CBB agrees with me, I'm not going to spend an hour going back and forth with some random dude who comes on here to argue, I come here to talk basketball, that's all I've ever done.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

I meant top 10 active. He's absolutely top ten active right now, your crazy to think otherwise, name your top ten please.

Boeheim can't compete with the big names for top recruits, so he usually he's a few top 100s that can develop and are lanky enough to play the zone, that's all.

Dude It took a while to make Cuse a household name, the dude didn't get a coaching gig at UNC or Kansas at an older age. The only other coach who has really put there school on the map is K.

He's been to he's been to 17 SS, 3 NC games, 5 FFs. He's a good coach, that's all I've said all along. I could honestly care less about your opinion because a lot of people who actually are involved in CBB agree Boeheim has been an amazing coach. He will never need your stamp of approval because he's already had it.

Honestly I despise arguing on the internet, I could care less about it and for the most part I've stayed away from it so I will try to continue too.

So trolly unless you want to have a dance off you can go get picked last on the playground for dodgeball!!

You need to learn to fucking read. I never said JB wasn't a good coach or even a great coach. You just get your fucking panties in a wad anytime anyone say's something that doesn't equate to polishing his knob.

I say he's barely a top 10 active coach. You flip the fuck out. But we agree he's a top 10 active coach. You're the one that wants to make a big thing of it. You're trying to argue not me.

The point of this thread was if he's a better choice than Roy Williams. He's not. You want to tell me how great he is, that's fine, but he's not a better choice than Roy.

		Roy	JB
Years HC	26	38
All time wins:	724	948
Wins/yr		~28	~25
Winning %	.792	.748
Tourny record	63-22	47-28	
Tourny %	.741	.626
Championships	2	1
Runner Ups	2 (4)	2 (3)
Final Four	3 (7)	1 (4)
Elite Eight	4 (11)	4 (8)

The only thing JB has done better than Roy is get a head coaching job earlier in his career. He's just been doing it for so fucking long, of course he has a shitpile of wins. But Roy beats him in total winning% wins per season, post season winning% , and despite having 12 fewer seasons, he's managed to rack up more tournament wins, and fewer tournament losses than JB. He consistently makes it farther in the tournament, and basically does everything that matters, better.

So you can keep having a fucking little hissy fit over the fact that Roy is objectively better than JB, I don't really care, but it boils down to loyalty and nothing more.

 

[Codaxx]

Are you serious? JB built Cuse into a national power. Roy only coached at Kansas and UNC. Roys win percentage is so good, because he has never known what it is like being an underdog. Lets put it context. Kansas won titles before and after Roy, never with Roy

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Are you serious? JB built Cuse into a national power. Roy only coached at Kansas and UNC. Roys win percentage is so good, because he has never known what it is like being an underdog. Lets put it context. Kansas won titles before and after Roy, never with Roy

It took JB 27 seasons to win his first (and only) Championship.

Roy hasn't even coached that long.

Roy Averaged a Final Four about once every Four Years at Kansas. How often does JB get one?

JB's career is long enough that we can separate it into "building" phase and "national prominence" phase. Since he's brought the program to national prominence, he still isn't as successful in the post season as Roy.

Hell if he didn't luck out with a local kid who happened to be the best pure scorer in a decade, he still wouldn't have a championship.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

You need to learn to fucking read. I never said JB wasn't a good coach or even a great coach. You just get your fucking panties in a wad anytime anyone say's something that doesn't equate to polishing his knob.

I say he's barely a top 10 active coach. You flip the fuck out. But we agree he's a top 10 active coach. You're the one that wants to make a big thing of it. You're trying to argue not me.

The point of this thread was if he's a better choice than Roy Williams. He's not. You want to tell me how great he is, that's fine, but he's not a better choice than Roy.

		Roy	JB
Years HC	26	38
All time wins:	724	948
Wins/yr		~28	~25
Winning %	.792	.748
Tourny record	63-22	47-28	
Tourny %	.741	.626
Championships	2	1
Runner Ups	2 (4)	2 (3)
Final Four	3 (7)	1 (4)
Elite Eight	4 (11)	4 (8)

The only thing JB has done better than Roy is get a head coaching job earlier in his career. He's just been doing it for so fucking long, of course he has a shitpile of wins. But Roy beats him in total winning% wins per season, post season winning% , and despite having 12 fewer seasons, he's managed to rack up more tournament wins, and fewer tournament losses than JB. He consistently makes it farther in the tournament, and basically does everything that matters, better.

So you can keep having a fucking little hissy fit over the fact that Roy is objectively better than JB, I don't really care, but it boils down to loyalty and nothing more.

Your not trying to argue, are you fucking insane dude?

I tried stopping this back and forth and you kept it coming. YOU replied to my post, let's not get it twisted.

I never sat here and compared Boeheim to anybody, I've already responded to your nonsense in the other thread. The only issue I've had with your posts is your inherent lack of respect and knowledge that JB is a great fucking coach. I've said this in my posts to you multiple times, how many times do I have to say it dude?

My original post said I respected both coaches, I would be happy to have them both, but I gave the slight edge to Boeheim.

Show me where I said Jb is so much fucking better, fuck Roy, fuck UNC? Did I, no I didn't.

Get out of here with your bullshit, every post I've seen of yours is literally an argument, you don't contribute anything meaningful. Keep living in fantasy land where you think only you can be correct. Not how life works pal.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Your not trying to argue, are you fucking insane dude?

I tried stopping this back and forth and you kept it coming. YOU replied to my post, let's not get it twisted.

I never sat here and compared Boeheim to anybody, I've already responded to your nonsense in the other thread. The only issue I've had with your posts is your inherent lack of respect and knowledge that JB is a great fucking coach. I've said this in my posts to you multiple times, how many times do I have to say it dude?

My original post said I respected both coaches, I would be happy to have them both, but I gave the slight edge to Boeheim.

Show me where I said Jb is so much fucking better, fuck Roy, fuck UNC? Did I, no I didn't.

Get out of here with your bullshit, every post I've seen of yours is literally an argument, you don't contribute anything meaningful. Keep living in fantasy land where you think only you can be correct. Not how life works pal.

Show me where I've disrespected JB. I said he isn't as good as Roy. If you consider that disrespect, you're wound to fucking tight. As usual, you're much more worried about pitching a hissy fit over what you thought I said.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

Show me where I've disrespected JB. I said he isn't as good as Roy. If you consider that disrespect, you're wound to fucking tight. As usual, you're much more worried about pitching a hissy fit over what you thought I said.

You said he was a useless old fossil, he's horrible in the tournament, among other things. That's disrespect, you won't see me saying that shot about great coaches out there regardless if I like them or not.

Look if you respect the guy and can agree he is a great coach and you can agree he is top ten among active coaches, than I have no qualms with you. The way you said things makes it extremely hard to see if you respect him or not and the way I said things were far worse than what was meant by my posts.

 

[Smart]

Hell if he didn't luck out with a local kid who happened to be the best pure scorer in a decade, he still wouldn't have a championship.

(You might want to check where that scorer was from.....)

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

You said he was a useless old fossil, he's horrible in the tournament, among other things. That's disrespect, you won't see me saying that shot about great coaches out there regardless if I like them or not.

Look if you respect the guy and can agree he is a great coach and you can agree he is top ten among active coaches, than I have no qualms with you. The way you said things makes it extremely hard to see if you respect him or not and the way I said things were far worse than what was meant by my posts.

Okay fine. While the "useless old fossil" comment was mainly aimed at the useless old fossil that started the other thread, I'll grant you that it came off as disrespectful to Boeheim. But again, it was no more disrespectful to Boeheim than the OP was to Williams, and I don't see you chastising him for his lack of respect.

As far as his tournament record goes, compared to other HoF coaches (i.e. his peer group) it is horrible. I'm sorry if that's tough for you to deal with, but it's the truth. He's way better than most coaches... but he isn't in the company of most coaches. He's a Top 10 guy. He's going to be compared to other Top Ten Guys. And his record in the tournament simply doesn't compare well.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

(You might want to check where that scorer was from.....)

New York.

Christ almighty. If I have to listen to more what's local or not bullshit from Syracuse fan's I'm going to flip the fuck out. It doesn't have to be in area code 13210 to be considered local. Fuck.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Sorry, born in new york. He moved to Baltimore.

 

[Smart]

New York.

Christ almighty. If I have to listen to more what's local or not bullshit from Syracuse fan's I'm going to flip the fuck out. It doesn't have to be in area code 13210 to be considered local. Fuck.

He hadn't lived in New York since he was in the 2nd grade. He was Baltimore all the way. It's where he lives today and where his charity is headquartered. If you ever talk to Maryland fans, they'll never make you forget it. Remember, Maryland had won the title the previous year. They'll tell you losing Carmelo was what stopped them from being a dynasty and a major powerhouse.

Getting him was a huge coup. Pretending Syracuse was "lucky" to get him because he lived five hours away when he was in the first grade is a stretch and hurts your argument.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

He hadn't lived in New York since he was in the 2nd grade. He was Baltimore all the way. It's where he lives today and where his charity is headquartered. If you ever talk to Maryland fans, they'll never make you forget it. Remember, Maryland had won the title the previous year. They'll tell you losing Carmelo was what stopped them from being a dynasty and a major powerhouse.

Getting him was a huge coup. Pretending Syracuse was "lucky" to get him because he lived five hours away when he was in the first grade is a stretch and hurts your argument.

Okay fine. He's not the "local" guy.

Boeheim was till lucky to get him, and he still wouldn't have a title without him.

Take away the one Melo season, and tell me how good Boeheim's career is. He's Dan Marino of college hoops. Best ever not to win a title!

 

[Smart]

Take away the one Melo season, and tell me how good Boeheim's career is. He's Dan Marino of college hoops. Best ever not to win a title!

It's funny that you should say that, because Roy was generally considered the Dan Marino of college hoops. That was half the build-up leading to the title game. Which Dan Marino will finally win their title? Luckily, both did, and I'm glad they did.

Roy landed that incredible Hansbrough-Lawson-Green group. If you take them away, he never would have really built his own title team from start to finish. It's damn tough to win a title, and it's always gonna require some big gets.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

It doesn't help Boeheim that he comes across as a complete dick.
Boeheim behaves like a foul mouthed bullying 8 year old.
Admittedly, he might be a nicer guy in private, but publically he comes across like a douchebag.


Roy Williams has the folksy "aw shucks" persona that also might be a bit phony.
And chances are it is phoney, but he understands the benefit of projecting a nice guy image.


Williams just seems like a far more likeable person.
That should count for something.
I don't want my coach to project an image of a complete unlikeable jackass prick like Boeheim.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

It's funny that you should say that, because Roy was generally considered the Dan Marino of college hoops. That was half the build-up leading to the title game. Which Dan Marino will finally win their title? Luckily, both did, and I'm glad they did.

Roy landed that incredible Hansbrough-Lawson-Green group. If you take them away, he never would have really built his own title team from start to finish. It's damn tough to win a title, and it's always gonna require some big gets.

Take away JB's title season, and Roy's 2, and Roy still has a much, much better record in the dance.

 

[jonvi]

Take away JB's title season, and Roy's 2, and Roy still has a much, much better record in the dance.

Which is why the thread about Roy Williams should go was doomed from the start. Talking smack about a coach that on paper has a better resume was bound to draw these types of dissusions.

I commend the fishing expidition because it brought out the fight.

We could go on for days about who is really better and you're not going to sway many opinions. If you read syracuse.com much you'll find a ton of SU fans who are very much ready for Boeheim to go. Maybe they are right. logins like Dump JB.

I'm more the careful what you ask for type. Boeheim for the large part of his career has been one of the lower paid high viz coaches. A private school like SU has to balance a budget and will most likely not go the $3 Mil and up coaches like Donovan, K, Matta and Izzo make.

So all considering....the cost to the school, the weather not being the best, Syracuse is not a booming city, Upstate NY is not the hotbed of fun, and the lack of history that comes with some programs.....

All considered....I think Coach JB is a 5 star coach based on all the facts. Because who is going to come to Syracuse that's better than Coach for what Coach JB is making now? I'm not sure that guy is there.

 

[jonvi]

btw....the poll is 50/50. That's not shocking to me.