replacement refs

[tallglassofwater007]

Another layer to last nights debacle:

Seattle Seahawks vs. Green Bay Packers -- Disputed MNF call shifted $150-$250M in bets - ESPN

I was talking to my friend about that last night. Vegas was probably in chaos.

In related news... the replacement refs cost the SF 49ers the game against the Minnesota Vikings too, when they blew the whistle to signal the start of the game.

 

[grayghost668]

Yep... and there be a tax on posting on 49er property i reckon....

just send me a bill

 

[Jikkle]

This all is proving that you don't have to be smart to become a billionaire. How dumb are these guys?

They are harming their multi-billion dollar enterprise to save a few bucks on the real refs, who are proving their value every week. Stupid, greedy, and selfish.

Nothing done right now will have long term implications.

People are watching regardless and they will continue to do so.

As soon as they bring back the real refs all will be forgotten and the NFL universe will go back to life as normal as if nothing happened.

In the end everything is going as expected really because this is a case where neither side has any real leverage going for them.

It was in the refs best interest to wait it out and let the replacement refs screw up enough times to swing leverage to their side and it was in the NFL's best interest to hope they could train the replacements to be adequate enough where it wasn't a major issue.

NFL is losing it's gamble and they'll like be even more serious about negations henceforth.

 

[ChrisPozz]

Actually I was wrong and so were you Grayghost.

According to the rules the refs upstairs (reviewing the TD) their sole job is to determine if the ball hit the floor, both foot are in bounce, making sure that everything is legal in the endzone. They CANNOT or have the power to determine "Possession" - that is left for the refs below on the grounds. So the replacement refs are at fault because the regular replay refs are not able to override an official below on issues regarding "Possession".

I went to bed thinking something like that as well after reading Gerry Austin's comments. Then I woke up and saw this:

Non-replacements had a hand in last night’s debacle, too | ProFootballTalk

If the non-replacement replay official and the non-replacement league supervisor didn’t tell the replacement referee to overturn the call, the non-replacements deserve a lot of the blame.

Make no mistake about it. This one could have been overturned. Rule 15, Section 9 makes the question of whether a pass was “ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted” subject to replay review, with no exception for questions of simultaneous possession.

Yeah, we know the ESPN call says simultaneous possession can’t be reviewed by replay. We disagree. If it wasn’t reviewable by replay, it wouldn’t have been reviewed by replay. It was, so it is. (The only aspect that isn’t reviewable is the question of whether Seahawks receiver Golden Tate pushed off before jumping, because pass interference is a judgment call.)

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

This all is proving that you don't have to be smart to become a billionaire. How dumb are these guys?

You don't have to be smart, but if you want a billion you do have to be kind of a dick in labor negotations. Always love the line "what, you think I got this rich by writing a bunch of checks?"

You also can't discount the fact that a growing number of these guys are 2nd generation guys who *aren't* businessmen, they inherited empires and have no connection to reality. York, Rooneys, Modells......more and more of them.

 

[BINGO]

 

[Bemular]

View attachment 3857

That deserves a rep - "rep!" There, you now have one rep!

 

[iowajerms]

I have lost a lot of respect to original refs. They had it made. Even though the replacement refs are not much worse than the originals, they showed up. I hate that the great finish to the Packers and Seahawks game is tarnished by a call that I have seen originals make many times.

"The average NFL game official last season made $8,764 a game. Under the NFL's last proposal, that would increase to at least $11,117 per game by 2018."

Source: Referee negotiations put NFL in tough spot - Sports Business News, Analysis - Dollars Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

8,764 x 16 = 140,224

How awful that must be for those guys. How are they supposed to live off of that? I mean they got a family to feed, you know?

 

[mem49er]

I have lost a lot of respect to original refs. They had it made. Even though the replacement refs are not much worse than the originals, they showed up. I hate that the great finish to the Packers and Seahawks game is tarnished by a call that I have seen originals make many times.

"The average NFL game official last season made $8,764 a game. Under the NFL's last proposal, that would increase to at least $11,117 per game by 2018."

Source: Referee negotiations put NFL in tough spot - Sports Business News, Analysis - Dollars Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

8,764 x 16 = 140,224

How awful that must be for those guys. How are they supposed to live off of that? I mean they got a family to feed, you know?

Hey it's long hours, years of education and short careers. They can't do it forever!

 

[abaskin18]

I have lost a lot of respect to original refs. They had it made. Even though the replacement refs are not much worse than the originals, they showed up. I hate that the great finish to the Packers and Seahawks game is tarnished by a call that I have seen originals make many times.

"The average NFL game official last season made $8,764 a game. Under the NFL's last proposal, that would increase to at least $11,117 per game by 2018."

Source: Referee negotiations put NFL in tough spot - Sports Business News, Analysis - Dollars Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

8,764 x 16 = 140,224

How awful that must be for those guys. How are they supposed to live off of that? I mean they got a family to feed, you know?

The difference in salary isn't the major sticking point, from what I've read, compared to the pension issue.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Of course, if the NFL said "here's $300k a year on average" the refs would forget their other objections....so it does come down to money in the end. They have a price. Its all about give and take, unless you think you have the other side by the balls.

 

[abaskin18]

Of course, if the NFL said "here's $300k a year on average" the refs would forget their other objections....so it does come down to money in the end. They have a price. Its all about give and take, unless you think you have the other side by the balls.

Yes, offering someone a ~100% pay raise tends to make other stuff seem moot...um, good point.

 

[Bemular]

The difference in salary isn't the major sticking point, from what I've read, compared to the pension issue.

Salary and pension issue are "often" mutually inclusive in these types of negotiations. When a company wants to take "back-end" funds away from employees, they (the employees) tend to want those funds returned in the form of "front-end" compensation.

 

[abaskin18]

Salary and pension issue are "often" mutually inclusive in these types of negotiations. When a company wants to take "back-end" funds away from employees, they (the employees) tend to want those funds returned in the form of "front-end" compensation.

Very true indeed. I was simply responding to a post trivializing the relatively low change in compensation as if it were the only issue, and small one at that.

 

[zman1527]

I have lost a lot of respect to original refs. They had it made. Even though the replacement refs are not much worse than the originals, they showed up. I hate that the great finish to the Packers and Seahawks game is tarnished by a call that I have seen originals make many times.

"The average NFL game official last season made $8,764 a game. Under the NFL's last proposal, that would increase to at least $11,117 per game by 2018."

Source: Referee negotiations put NFL in tough spot - Sports Business News, Analysis - Dollars Blog - ESPN Playbook - ESPN

8,764 x 16 = 140,224

How awful that must be for those guys. How are they supposed to live off of that? I mean they got a family to feed, you know?

Wow, so guys who can do the best (not perfect) job of reffing NFL games, a multi-billion dollar enterprise, are not worth one game's worth of profits on the hot dog sales? I guess you take whatever cuts to your wages the boss wants and roll over like a good boy.

Corps and business' never want to pay what anything is worth. They are proving it again here. The regular refs have worked they way up to the top of the game and deserve to get paid for that. The NFL dipsh*t billionaire owners are proving they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. you seem to be the same way. Hope your boss is different.

 

[MHSL82]

Wow, so guys who can do the best (not perfect) job of reffing NFL games, a multi-billion dollar enterprise, are not worth one game's worth of profits on the hot dog sales? I guess you take whatever cuts to your wages the boss wants and roll over like a good boy.

Corps and business' never want to pay what anything is worth. They are proving it again here. The regular refs have worked they way up to the top of the game and deserve to get paid for that. The NFL dipsh*t billionaire owners are proving they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. you seem to be the same way. Hope your boss is different.

I agree with your conclusion, but not this line. The regular refs deserve what their value is to the game and league. That's hard to determine, they likely are worth more than 140K in that league of profits. They deserve their value but will get what they can negotiate, which is less than their value. The NFL isn't exactly known for merciful cavings into weaker parties. Working their way up to the top of the game made them worthy of the position. The position's value makes them worth X amount of dollars.

I'd say this about doctors, too. They go through years of training, but their pay should be for what they do, not for the time it took to get there or their tuition loans. They might go into the medical field for that money, that's their choice, but their reward is just that, to be the doctor. Their dedication and commitment makes them worthy of being doctors and trusted medically, but not for X amount of dollars. (I do find determining worth difficult here, because what is life worth - the market of course determines cost, but not worth in some terms.)

Someone talked about how the refs careers are short so therefore 140K isn't that much. That's correct, but that's not reason for the NFL to give more. The NFL isn't and shouldn't be concerned with the refs lifetime earnings. Again, real value is what they deserve. They won't get it. What they deserve is tied to how much impact they have on the game (not individual games, I'm talking about product and experience), how much the league is making off that work, etc.

 

[zman1527]

The NFL isn't and shouldn't be concerned with the refs lifetime earnings. Again, real value is what they deserve.

You are right and you are wrong. In the modern financial world, of course you are right. Corporations are all about profit and should use every trick and opportunity to maximize their profit.

On the other hand, we need to get past that kind of view, it is the morality and ethics of the wallet. People really do deserve more respect and compensation than just being another line on a spreadsheet. For one, as humans, they can not go back and get the years back that they put into getting to the NFL. When they retire, they cannot get another life to make up for a lost pension. Of course the refs need to perform and perform well to stay there. But they should not be subjected to these strong arm tactics trying to take away their living (partial) and their rights.

What they are asking for is not out of line to their value to the enterprise they serve. The owners are just being selfish jerks, shooting themselves in the foot to save a buck.

 

[MHSL82]

You are right and you are wrong. In the modern financial world, of course you are right. Corporations are all about profit and should use every trick and opportunity to maximize their profit.

On the other hand, we need to get past that kind of view, it is the morality and ethics of the wallet. People really do deserve more respect and compensation than just being another line on a spreadsheet. For one, as humans, they can not go back and get the years back that they put into getting to the NFL. When they retire, they cannot get another life to make up for a lost pension. Of course the refs need to perform and perform well to stay there. But they should not be subjected to these strong arm tactics trying to take away their living (partial) and their rights.

What they are asking for is not out of line to their value to the enterprise they serve. The owners are just being selfish jerks, shooting themselves in the foot to save a buck.

I agree with everything you said, what I meant is that the shortness of the refs career doesn't mean they should be paid more than they would if their careers were long. They have a choice - shortness of career and pay should be considerations to the refs in determining whether this is the career they should go into. If the refs got their fair share in value for each year, would you or anyone argue that it should be higher because they only ref for a decade or two?

But I definitely think that corporations should look more to what is fair, not what they can get away with. If they got what was fair based upon what they add to the sport and the NFL's profit, I think that would compensate for the hard work to get there. So they may be underpaid, but not because of career length, in my opinion. Unfortunately, who they are dealing with is a consideration, too. We all know the NFL is greedy, that makes them selfish. But it doesn't make me feel the refs are slighted 100%. (I put most blame on the NFL.) 140K is enough to live on, not enough to show their value to the game. They cannot expect to be able to retire at 40, they will need to work elsewhere.

 

[MHSL82]

I didn't mean 40 - I know they are older than that. What I meant was "They cannot expect to be able to retire after a short career, they will need to work elsewhere. They get paid in college working up to the NFL, too. I feel bad for them, but they need to save. Most refs have other jobs, too that won't necessarily end when they retire from the NFL."

So NFL = greedy. Refs should get paid more. I just had different reasons.

If the NFL expects them to be full-time with no other employment, than the NFL should expect to need to compensate better. Who would take one job at 140K versus two jobs at 140+ 45?

 

[deep9er]

I didn't mean 40 - I know they are older than that. What I meant was "They cannot expect to be able to retire after a short career, they will need to work elsewhere. They get paid in college working up to the NFL, too. I feel bad for them, but they need to save. Most refs have other jobs, too that won't necessarily end when they retire from the NFL."

So NFL = greedy. Refs should get paid more. I just had different reasons.

If the NFL expects them to be full-time with no other employment, than the NFL should expect to need to compensate better. Who would take one job at 140K versus two jobs at 140+ 45?

anyone know how MLB does it? do they have full time umpires?