Please Just Go Back to a 4-3 Carroll...

[flyerhawk]

Nowsu should've dropped into coverage. He was a 3-4 backer in San Angeles which is my whole point... their job is NOT the same as a 4-3 edge rusher, I don't understand what you're on about regarding this. A 4-3 EDGE rusher is not asked to drop into coverage like a 3-4 linebacker. It made 100% sense Nwosu dropped into coverage quite a bit because he was the only fuckin' person in the linebacker crew that understood how the fuck to do it.

What I'm saying is that Nwosu dropped back into coverage about as frequently as a bunch of other 4-3 edge rushers. Like Lorenzo Carter, Josh Allen, Thibodeux, and Hassan Reddick.

And my point is that players like Nwosu or Taylor or Mafe or Robinson will still be primarily pass rushers/run defenders regardless of whether they are in a 4-3 or 3-4.

Your personnel define whether you are running a 4-3 or 3-4.

 

[Warden]

The only time a four three DE drops into coverage is on a zone blitz or if they only rush three

 

[flyerhawk]

The only time a four three DE drops into coverage is on a zone blitz or if they only rush three

Sure. You don't want your edge rushers in coverage. But that is true whether they are down linemen in a 4-3 or upright in a 3-4. I mentioned Nwosu had 100 coverage snaps last year. That was out of 923 snaps though. Darrel Taylor had 498 snaps with only 27 of them in coverage snaps.

The truth is that most teams don't even run 4 box defenders all that much, given that teams are passing so much. Which is why Coby Bryant had more defensive snaps than all but 3 box defenders(Brooks, Barton, and Nwosu)

 

[flyerhawk]

I was listening to Brock and Salk and either Brock or one of their guests made a good point regarding to 4-3 and 3-4.

More and more college teams are switching to 3-4s because it is a lot easier to find fast 255 lb players than fast 290 lb players.

If that is true then I think it is smart to move to a 3-4 because you are going to find more players that fit your defense.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I was listening to Brock and Salk and either Brock or one of their guests made a good point regarding to 4-3 and 3-4.

More and more college teams are switching to 3-4s because it is a lot easier to find fast 255 lb players than fast 290 lb players.

If that is true then I think it is smart to move to a 3-4 because you are going to find more players that fit your defense.

I kind of disagree with that assessment.

Finding the personnel to excel in a 3-4 defense I think is more difficult because in a 3-4 your edge players will occasionally be asked to drop back in coverage.

Philosophically I think that a 3-4 base is more difficult to attack from an offensive perspective due to the fact that you don't know who will be dropping back in coverage and who will be rushing the passer, but it's much easier to teach a 4-3 defense because the roles are simpler.

I actually do believe that the 3-4 is superior to a 4-3, but I also believe that finding the right personnel for a 3-4 defense is more difficult than a 4-3.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Sure. You don't want your edge rushers in coverage. But that is true whether they are down linemen in a 4-3 or upright in a 3-4. I mentioned Nwosu had 100 coverage snaps last year. That was out of 923 snaps though. Darrel Taylor had 498 snaps with only 27 of them in coverage snaps.

The truth is that most teams don't even run 4 box defenders all that much, given that teams are passing so much. Which is why Coby Bryant had more defensive snaps than all but 3 box defenders(Brooks, Barton, and Nwosu)

Just read this after making that post lol.

I actually didn't realize that Nwosu and Taylor had so few snaps in coverage. That makes me wonder if the Seahawks rushed 5 on most downs.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I kind of disagree with that assessment.

Finding the personnel to excel in a 3-4 defense I think is more difficult because in a 3-4 your edge players will occasionally be asked to drop back in coverage.

Philosophically I think that a 3-4 base is more difficult to attack from an offensive perspective due to the fact that you don't know who will be dropping back in coverage and who will be rushing the passer, but it's much easier to teach a 4-3 defense because the roles are simpler.

I actually do believe that the 3-4 is superior to a 4-3, but I also believe that finding the right personnel for a 3-4 defense is more difficult than a 4-3.

Agreed entirely, and that's always been the difficulty of that switch. A 3-4 is better, but it's extremely hard to find players to do it, because your entire front 7 needs to be VERY competent if not elite to pull it off. If you have that, then yes - you're assembling a HOF defense. AND your secondary gets to basically yawn their way through games.

That said, the HUGE problem I had last year is Seattle made the switch to a 3-4 personnel with basically NOBODY outside of Nwosu on the roster that understood how the fuck to run it. Mafe fits better in a 4-3... It was absolutely ridiculous. Yes Reed now has 3-4 experience and we snagged a nose tackle (who let's pray stays healthy because there's zero depth after that) but we still have a major hole at ILB and Bush is not going to scare anyone.

I actually wonder if they'll move Hall inside, because Mafe/Taylor/Nwosu... (and while Taylor SUCKED ass the first half of the season he actually came on in the second half) have the 3-4 OLB position fairly locked up.

 

[flyerhawk]

I kind of disagree with that assessment.

Finding the personnel to excel in a 3-4 defense I think is more difficult because in a 3-4 your edge players will occasionally be asked to drop back in coverage.

Philosophically I think that a 3-4 base is more difficult to attack from an offensive perspective due to the fact that you don't know who will be dropping back in coverage and who will be rushing the passer, but it's much easier to teach a 4-3 defense because the roles are simpler.

I actually do believe that the 3-4 is superior to a 4-3, but I also believe that finding the right personnel for a 3-4 defense is more difficult than a 4-3.

I think a lot of people have some dated views on the 3-4 vs 4-3 debate. Most teams don't even use that termonology anymore. Instead it is either an odd(3-4) or even (4-3) set.

In both situations you are talking about a front 7. So in itself, you aren't asking anyone to do more coverage in one set or the other. And, truth be told, teams don't really run that much 3-4/3-4 defense in general these days because teams are running 3 or 4 receiver sets so much.

Guys like Nwosu or Taylor or Mafe or Robinson are edge rushers. You can call them LBs or DEs but their job is rushing the passer. If they drop into coverage it is as a form of subterfuge.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I think a lot of people have some dated views on the 3-4 vs 4-3 debate. Most teams don't even use that termonology anymore. Instead it is either an odd(3-4) or even (4-3) set.

In both situations you are talking about a front 7. So in itself, you aren't asking anyone to do more coverage in one set or the other. And, truth be told, teams don't really run that much 3-4/3-4 defense in general these days because teams are running 3 or 4 receiver sets so much.

Guys like Nwosu or Taylor or Mafe or Robinson are edge rushers. You can call them LBs or DEs but their job is rushing the passer. If they drop into coverage it is as a form of subterfuge.

That's fair. You are right that these days it is more of a hybrid defense that most teams run. Technically a base 3-4 or 4-3 in it's traditional sense these days is normally only run on passing downs.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Agreed entirely, and that's always been the difficulty of that switch. A 3-4 is better, but it's extremely hard to find players to do it, because your entire front 7 needs to be VERY competent if not elite to pull it off. If you have that, then yes - you're assembling a HOF defense. AND your secondary gets to basically yawn their way through games.

That said, the HUGE problem I had last year is Seattle made the switch to a 3-4 personnel with basically NOBODY outside of Nwosu on the roster that understood how the fuck to run it. Mafe fits better in a 4-3... It was absolutely ridiculous. Yes Reed now has 3-4 experience and we snagged a nose tackle (who let's pray stays healthy because there's zero depth after that) but we still have a major hole at ILB and Bush is not going to scare anyone.

I actually wonder if they'll move Hall inside, because Mafe/Taylor/Nwosu... (and while Taylor SUCKED ass the first half of the season he actually came on in the second half) have the 3-4 OLB position fairly locked up.

I think @flyerhawk made a pretty good point about most teams running a hybrid defense if you saw his post.

I do completely agree that one of the biggest issues with our switch to a 3-4 was the fact that we didn't have the personnel to do it. Poona Ford - who I loved in a 4-3 - had a really hard time in a 3-4 as he doesn't have the size to play NT in a 3-4, and doesn't have the pass rush ability to fit as a 3-4 DE. Taylor as you mentioned struggled a lot at times and was out of position more often than not in the first half of the season.

I actually like where we are at going into the season at ILB. Bobby Wagner has still got it, Jordyn Brooks is an alright starter and I actually see Devin Bush as a bit of a wild card. He was a good enough prospect to be drafted at #10 overall and has all of the athletic traits you look for, had a solid rookie year then was just mediocre after that. So the potential is there, not that I'm banking on him coming in and making the impact he made at Michigan.

I'd be stunned if Hall moved inside. He's an edge player. My comp for him is actually Frank Clark. He's a 3-4 OLB and a 4-3 DE. I think the selection was made partially due to the fact that Nwosu and Taylor are both free agents after the 2023 season. I also think he's a better prospect than Mafe. Carroll loves competition and one of the great things about this draft IMO is that we've added a ton of depth to the team.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I think @flyerhawk made a pretty good point about most teams running a hybrid defense if you saw his post.

I do completely agree that one of the biggest issues with our switch to a 3-4 was the fact that we didn't have the personnel to do it. Poona Ford - who I loved in a 4-3 - had a really hard time in a 3-4 as he doesn't have the size to play NT in a 3-4, and doesn't have the pass rush ability to fit as a 3-4 DE. Taylor as you mentioned struggled a lot at times and was out of position more often than not in the first half of the season.

I actually like where we are at going into the season at ILB. Bobby Wagner has still got it, Jordyn Brooks is an alright starter and I actually see Devin Bush as a bit of a wild card. He was a good enough prospect to be drafted at #10 overall and has all of the athletic traits you look for, had a solid rookie year then was just mediocre after that. So the potential is there, not that I'm banking on him coming in and making the impact he made at Michigan.

I'd be stunned if Hall moved inside. He's an edge player. My comp for him is actually Frank Clark. He's a 3-4 OLB and a 4-3 DE. I think the selection was made partially due to the fact that Nwosu and Taylor are both free agents after the 2023 season. I also think he's a better prospect than Mafe. Carroll loves competition and one of the great things about this draft IMO is that we've added a ton of depth to the team.

Fair. Also on Brooks, pretty sure he'll be out most of the season. So starting Bush and Wagner... woof. I agree entirely Hall is an EDGE rusher... I just wonder what they'll do if Bush/Wagner (one or both) go out because there's nothing left.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'd be stunned if Hall moved inside. He's an edge player. My comp for him is actually Frank Clark. He's a 3-4 OLB and a 4-3 DE. I think the selection was made partially due to the fact that Nwosu and Taylor are both free agents after the 2023 season. I also think he's a better prospect than Mafe. Carroll loves competition and one of the great things about this draft IMO is that we've added a ton of depth to the team.

Hall is an edge rusher. No way he goes inside

 

[seahawksfan234]

Fair. Also on Brooks, pretty sure he'll be out most of the season. So starting Bush and Wagner... woof. I agree entirely Hall is an EDGE rusher... I just wonder what they'll do if Bush/Wagner (one or both) go out because there's nothing left.

I think there's a chance Brooks could be back after the bye week. He tore his ACL on January 2nd, recovery time is anywhere from 9-12 months depending on the player, if I take the optimistic approach he could be back by October.

 

[flyerhawk]

Clint Hurtt thinks the talk of 3-4/4-3 is overblown..

A lot of people talk about how there was more two-gapping (in the 3-4 look). We actually did more two-gapping the previous two years. But because of the change the assumption is ‘well, they’re doing this more because of this change to a 3-4’. I’ve stated numerous times I think that’s really overstated and overblown. Fact of the matter is we needed to coach that better and we could’ve played that better than what we did, but it starts with us as coaches to get that stuff rectified and corrected. So in terms of the schematics (of the defense), it’s not that. It’s just playing blocks the right way and cleaning up our fits.”

 

[Screamin12th]

I don't know, the Hawks went from middle of the pack rush defense in 2021 to one of the worst in the NFL in 2022. Of course they say " oh we just need to clean it up a little". Well cleaning it up a little means they might be 25th in rushing against lol. I would rather have that 15th-17th ranking than 30th!


"In a 4-3 defense, there are four linemen and three linebackers. In a 3-4 defense, there are three linemen and four linebackers. The 3-4 defense is more flexible for defending the pass and plays on the edge. This is because it's easier to drop a linebacker into coverage than a defensive end."

The issue we have is our outside linebackers are not true linebackers they are DE's playing outside linebacker.

 

[flyerhawk]

I don't know, the Hawks went from middle of the pack rush defense in 2021 to one of the worst in the NFL in 2022. Of course they say " oh we just need to clean it up a little". Well cleaning it up a little means they might be 25th in rushing against lol. I would rather have that 15th-17th ranking than 30th!

Well they have completely overhauled their front 7. Barton is gone. Ford is gone. Harris is gone. Jefferson is gone. Woods is gone. Collier is gone.

It remains to be seen whether Jones, Reed, Morris, Young, Edwards, Wagner, and Hall can change things.

 

[Screamin12th]

Well they have completely overhauled their front 7. Barton is gone. Ford is gone. Harris is gone. Jefferson is gone. Woods is gone. Collier is gone.

It remains to be seen whether Jones, Reed, Morris, Young, Edwards, Wagner, and Hall can change things.

Big Al Woods was a 3-4 NT not as dominate as you want but thats what he was, now we don't have one and a 3-4 not only needs a true NT they need a DOMINATE one. For a 3-4 to work you need that guy taking and stuffing two blockers. The 3-4 NT NEEDS to hold up at least 2 olineman to keep his Middle linebacker clean. Our issue last year was our Linebackers were not clean and our Outside linebackers were not outside linebackers but converted 4-3 DE's. you need big strong and very athletic OLB that can work in space and run in a 3-4.

a 4-3 is strong against the run weaker against the pass
a 3-4 is strong against the pass and weaker against the run.

With our back end we are all ready stronger against the pass and it's the reason our 4-3 had so much success with Sherm/Kam/Earl. With Woolen Witherspoon Diggs Adams/??? they have a strong backend.


FYI Carter did not project as a NT so i think that and the racing is why the Hawks passed on him.

 

[flyerhawk]

Big Al Woods was a 3-4 NT not as dominate as you want but thats what he was, now we don't have one and a 3-4 not only needs a true NT they need a DOMINATE one. For a 3-4 to work you need that guy taking and stuffing two blockers. The 3-4 NT NEEDS to hold up at least 2 olineman to keep his Middle linebacker clean. Our issue last year was our Linebackers were not clean and our Outside linebackers were not outside linebackers but converted 4-3 DE's. you need big strong and very athletic OLB that can work in space and run in a 3-4.

Al Woods was reasonably effective but he only had 405 snaps last year.

Hurtt says that they relied less on a true 2 gap NT last year than they did in years past. I don't know if we need a dominant NT. It would be great if we had one but there are very few dominant NTs in the league. We do need effective NTs. Right now they are putting in a faith into some Young and couple of UDFAs. They are saying that they aren't done so I could see them signing some after the June 1st cuts.

 

[Screamin12th]

Al Woods was reasonably effective but he only had 405 snaps last year.

Hurtt says that they relied less on a true 2 gap NT last year than they did in years past. I don't know if we need a dominant NT. It would be great if we had one but there are very few dominant NTs in the league. We do need effective NTs. Right now they are putting in a faith into some Young and couple of UDFAs. They are saying that they aren't done so I could see them signing some after the June 1st cuts.

For a 3-4 to work you need to keep your middle linebackers clean something we just can not do. Someone up front has to take up 2 blockers and if you dont have that guy then you need another person up front ( a 4th ) or your run defense is going to be trash ... what has our run defense last year?

Hurtt is trying to sugar coat it is all to make everyone feel good and or relax a little.


Al Woods was never a great NT i was just saying he was the best we had but now we don't have even him and did nothing to replace him.

think about some of the great 3-4 defenses they all pretty much had that stud in the middle and some amazingly strong and talented OLB with good speed. We got some amazingly talented DE not OLB that they are trying to play as OLB. I have to see what these pieces look like all together but right now i just see missing pieces. I know i am not alone on this.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

For a 3-4 to work you need to keep your middle linebackers clean something we just can not do. Someone up front has to take up 2 blockers and if you dont have that guy then you need another person up front ( a 4th ) or your run defense is going to be trash ... what has our run defense last year?

Hurtt is trying to sugar coat it is all to make everyone feel good and or relax a little.


Al Woods was never a great NT i was just saying he was the best we had but now we don't have even him and did nothing to replace him.

think about some of the great 3-4 defenses they all pretty much had that stud in the middle and some amazingly strong and talented OLB with good speed. We got some amazingly talented DE not OLB that they are trying to play as OLB. I have to see what these pieces look like all together but right now i just see missing pieces. I know i am not alone on this.

I think Woods could've been a decent NT but let's face it, the guy was 35 last year and had a long career in the NFL. We all knew he wasn't gonna hold up at that point, especially in a new position. And sure enough he dealt with some injuries too boot.

Mone probably wont be ready to go for the season and really hasn't stepped up, so we've kind of thrown all our eggs in one basket with Cameron Young who I would imagine will be starting day 1...

I think our team will be HORRIBLE against the run this year unless Cam Young just comes out of nowhere. Wagner is great but is going to be 33 and has taken a lot of punishment over the years, Bush is a complete wild card - good talent but undersized and after his major injury did nothing, Jones is not as good as Harris in defending the run (but a better pass rusher), Reed is known for a bit more pass rush than run stopping. Nwosu is solid, Mafe is an unknown, Taylor is horrible at everything but pass rush.

And then the Hall pick was interesting. Hall is another guy who is a pass rusher first and foremost. He's not great against the run and his coverage ability is better than Taylor's... but not exceptional. I can't necessarily fault the pick because it's a passing league and having too many pass rushers is a good problem to have. Remember the Giants? They had lots of good pass rushers and what did they do? Just kept drafting more, lol.... and that was the only team that could stop Brady lol.

But yah, Seattle SHOULD flourish against the pass. They've got an amazing secondary, pass rushers ALL over the place... but against the run? OOOOOOH BOY.... and I get Witherspoon was bar none the best run defender of the draft in the secondary and thinking back to CBs over the years, probably the best in over a decade... but you don't want your cornerbacks making a bunch of run stopping tackles. Not only is the yardage likely gained but a 5'11" 180lb corner is going to be on IR soon.