Pick plays got to go....

[nefansince75]

Hines Ward has wiped out a couple of players on pick plays...and he was intending on a meaningful hit...seeing the play several times now, I don't think there was intent to injury on the Welker hit.

To make the pick play illegal I think is OTT as long as the contact is not in the head or head area...

OTT? It's already illegal. That why we've been calling illegal since the first post of this thread. READ MY PRINT.... ALL PICKS ARE ILLEGAL.

 

[cdumler7]

I do because I watched the game. See it as you want... The Edelman hit came several steps after the reception was made. The Welker hit came before the almost reception. If you don't think that's a big distinction you don't know much about football.

I guess I am not understanding what you are trying to get across here. Are you suggesting that Welker purposely tried to hurt Talib or that he purposely tried to pick Talib? Now as for the play. The ball was already out of Manning's hand and hitting Thomas in the chest when the two collided so it can't be really called Pass interference. He was within 5 yards of the LOS so it can't be called well anything since the ball was hitting the receiver anyway and you are allowed to block once the ball hits the receiver. At best it could be called a defenseless player but at the same time Welker has just as much right to that space as Talib does so not sure you can really call it that either as it is not his responsibility to make sure Talib is looking where he is going.

 

[cdumler7]

OTT? It's already illegal. That why we've been calling illegal since the first post of this thread. READ MY PRINT.... ALL PICKS ARE ILLEGAL.

I guess it depends on your view of illegal. Inside 5 yards of the LOS (which this play was) receivers and DB's alike are allowed to fight it out as long as the ball is not in the air. Again though as I posted the ball hit D. Thomas in the chest the same time as Welker and Talib were colliding. Throw in a receiver does have just as much right to a spot as a corner. Just because they are running at each other does not make it illegal if Welker happens to collide with him.

NFL has already reviewed it and deemed it not "Illegal" and there will be no fine.

 

[eric5577x]

Def a pick in my mind, but no intent to hurt him. Thing is, we will never know. Not sure how the NFL can fine Wes for that hit, and it looks like they didn't. Oh well...I am over it....

 

[nefansince75]

I guess I am not understanding what you are trying to get across here. Are you suggesting that Welker purposely tried to hurt Talib or that he purposely tried to pick Talib? Now as for the play. The ball was already out of Manning's hand and hitting Thomas in the chest when the two collided so it can't be really called Pass interference. He was within 5 yards of the LOS so it can't be called well anything since the ball was hitting the receiver anyway and you are allowed to block once the ball hits the receiver. At best it could be called a defenseless player but at the same time Welker has just as much right to that space as Talib does so not sure you can really call it that either as it is not his responsibility to make sure Talib is looking where he is going.

He picked him and he did it just before the ball arrive. Welker and Talib did not collide, Welker blocked him... I am saying that many teams use this type of play and usually don't get called. The league ignores it and Talib was a casualty of it....

 

[KwitYerWhinin]

I guess Belichick agrees with me. In his press conference this morning he went out of his way to say "the receiver" deliberately created the contact and that the play was a key play in the game.

There's your excuse grim...

Despite Belichick's apparent belief that there was a clear foul and intent to injure on the play, no penalty was called. Talib left the game and was later ruled out with a knee injury.
Mike Pereira, the NFL's former Vice President of Officiating, felt the officials got it right by not calling for offensive pass interference on the play.

 

[grim rpr]

I do because I watched the game. See it as you want... The Edelman hit came several steps after the reception was made. The Welker hit came before the almost reception. If you don't think that's a big distinction you don't know much about football.

Such nonsense !! As CDulmler has said it happened at the same time the ball arrived which is fair play. No hit to the head so play was LEGAL !! Get over it, you lost, move on just like we had to do last year. Denver Fans were waiting for NE to finally have to play at Denver since the NFL scheduling comm. seems to always put Denver AT NE... Denver fans got what we wanted and lived up to the moment. Case closed

 

[Drawmeomg]

Inside 5 yards of the LOS (which this play was) receivers and DB's alike are allowed to fight it out as long as the ball is not in the air.

Not true.

Again though as I posted the ball hit D. Thomas in the chest the same time as Welker and Talib were colliding.

Not even close.

Throw in a receiver does have just as much right to a spot as a corner. Just because they are running at each other does not make it illegal if Welker happens to collide with him.

It's illegal if he ducks a shoulder and pushes into him, which is exactly what he did.

NFL has already reviewed it and deemed it not "Illegal" and there will be no fine.

Source? Sports Illustrated claims Welker is expected to be punished, citing unnamed league sources.

 

[cdumler7]

Not true.

Not even close.

It's illegal if he ducks a shoulder and pushes into him, which is exactly what he did.

Source? Sports Illustrated claims Welker is expected to be punished, citing unnamed league sources.

Here is your source...Report: Initial review by NFL says Welker?s hit on Talib was legal | Yardbarker.com

We can argue about this play all day long. It was a tough one especially at the speed of the game to tell whether he collided before the ball got to Thomas or not. I think they happened at the same time and the NFL agrees with me on that.

Also about the ducking of the shoulder it is not illegal to hit a guy with your shoulder. It is illegal to lead with your head but not with your shoulder and Welker hit within the designated area of the body that the NFL is pushing hard for players to do. Now as for him turning his shoulder please run at somebody at full speed and see how you react. I'm sorry but you are not just going to open up your body to be hit at full speed. You are going to protect your body by turning and having your shoulder take the brunt of the blow. Edelman had done the same thing the series before to DRC of the Broncos. Yes his was for sure after the Patriot player caught the ball but he lowered his shoulder into DRC knocking the wind out of him. It could have just as easily been DRC on the sideline for the rest of the game as it was for Talib. If Talib comes back in the game this play isn't even an issue today.

 

[nefansince75]

Here is your source...Report: Initial review by NFL says Welker?s hit on Talib was legal | Yardbarker.com

We can argue about this play all day long. It was a tough one especially at the speed of the game to tell whether he collided before the ball got to Thomas or not. I think they happened at the same time and the NFL agrees with me on that.

Also about the ducking of the shoulder it is not illegal to hit a guy with your shoulder. It is illegal to lead with your head but not with your shoulder and Welker hit within the designated area of the body that the NFL is pushing hard for players to do. Now as for him turning his shoulder please run at somebody at full speed and see how you react. I'm sorry but you are not just going to open up your body to be hit at full speed. You are going to protect your body by turning and having your shoulder take the brunt of the blow. Edelman had done the same thing the series before to DRC of the Broncos. Yes his was for sure after the Patriot player caught the ball but he lowered his shoulder into DRC knocking the wind out of him. It could have just as easily been DRC on the sideline for the rest of the game as it was for Talib. If Talib comes back in the game this play isn't even an issue today.

The hit came ahead of the pass, but not by much... I need my TIVO frame advance to determine it. Welker and Talib collided because the Bronco's pay called for a crossing route in which Thomas ducked under Welker. That play leaves no time for the defense to adjust, therefore is a pick...

What if Talib is not hurt but Thomas catches the ball for a huge gain? They cheated. Any way you look at it the Broncos cheated. But it's okay because everyone does it... That sounds like the same rationale used to justify spygate, but nobody agrees whether spygate created a competitive advantage. I doubt anyone would disagree that picks create a competitive advantage, especially in light of one knocking Talib out of the game. Maybe the Donks should lose their 1st round pick next year?

 

[cdumler7]

The hit came ahead of the pass, but not by much... I need my TIVO frame advance to determine it. Welker and Talib collided because the Bronco's pay called for a crossing route in which Thomas ducked under Welker. That play leaves no time for the defense to adjust, therefore is a pick...

What if Talib is not hurt but Thomas catches the ball for a huge gain? They cheated. Any way you look at it the Broncos cheated. But it's okay because everyone does it... That sounds like the same rationale used to justify spygate, but nobody agrees whether spygate created a competitive advantage. I doubt anyone would disagree that picks create a competitive advantage, especially in light of one knocking Talib out of the game. Maybe the Donks should lose their 1st round pick next year?

If you would read what I have posted on here I am one that agrees Spygate has been blown out of proportion to what it really was. I consider all the NE Super Bowls to be legit. Now when it comes to the pick plays like you said every team is starting to do these. Your OC was actually one of the first if I remember right to really bring this on a regular basis to the NFL. The Patriots in the game were doing this just as much as the Broncos on Sunday so if BB has so much problem with it then he should talk to McDaniels and tell him to take it out of the playbook.

Yes you are right the play is designed to set the pick. Does it border on illegal well somewhat yes. It is designed to disrupt the Corner or whoever is covering and make them have to lose a step and go around. The play in question is one that is very close of did Welker hit Talib before the ball got to D. Thomas...Honestly it looks like a tie to me and I don't blame the refs for not throwing a flag and I wouldn't have blamed them if they did as it was that close.

Now you keep hinting that he was trying to knock Talib out of the game. There are many other ways to go about that that would more guarantee an injury than hitting him in the chest. Throw in again how do balance that with the idea that Welker is our smallest receiver who is just coming off of 2 concussions and the next one sends him to IR for the season? It just doesn't make sense. Welker has said he expected Talib to see him and go around but instead Talib did not let up and Welker did not have time to get out of the way. It is an unfortunate play but one that does happen every once in a while. Now my guess is the NFL will look at those pick plays a little more this Off Season and determine if there is a better way to enforce them as to protect players. I don't know what they could do more than they already are considering they are allowed contact within 5 yards and again depending on your view of when the ball got to Thomas Welker was considered a blocker as soon as the ball hit Thomas' hands.

 

[Broncosr0k]

They cheated. Any way you look at it the Broncos cheated.

Get over it, at the very worst it was bad officiating though NFL and Mike Pereira say it was legal. Pats run the same damn play. They use picks to free receivers too. Stop proving to the rest of us that many pats fans are the bitches they are stereotyped to be. When the pats win, you guys claim dominance; when they lose you pull out any of a number of excuses. Maybe instead of bitching about a pick play you should talk about why Brady could not hit the broadside of a barn. Just accept the loss and move on. I know that can be difficult after being such a great team for the past decade plus.

I apologize to the classy pats fans but it is guys like nefansince75 that gives your fan base a terrible image.

 

[Drawmeomg]

Also about the ducking of the shoulder it is not illegal to hit a guy with your shoulder.

There is a rule against blocking downfield - the publicized crown-of-the-helmet and defenseless receiver rules are not the only rules governing contact among WRs and DBs. If you're an offensive player, you're not allowed to intentionally block a defensive player more than 1 yard past the line of scrimmage before the pass, period.

There IS a rule against pick plays like that - it's not just a whine that people trot out.

Not that the Patriots would have won anyway, mind. Our offense was as bad as I've ever seen it.

 

[cdumler7]

There is a rule against blocking downfield - the publicized crown-of-the-helmet and defenseless receiver rules are not the only rules governing contact among WRs and DBs. If you're an offensive player, you're not allowed to intentionally block a defensive player more than 1 yard past the line of scrimmage before the pass, period.

There IS a rule against pick plays like that - it's not just a whine that people trot out.

Not that the Patriots would have won anyway, mind. Our offense was as bad as I've ever seen it.

Right I understand that but this again comes down to do you think the ball got to Thomas right before or at the same time as that of Welker colliding with Talib? To me they arrived at the same time meaning Welker then becomes a blocker no matter how far off the line of scrimmage he is.

Yes you are right pick plays are illegal but that is why teams design routes that have players crossing hoping that it will lead to defensive players getting tangled together and giving the offense an opening. An offensive player has just as much right to a spot as a defensive player. Welker did not change the depth of his route that he was running meaning he had just as much right to that spot as Talib.

Throw in the Patriots are probably the first team in the NFL to use pick plays on a consistent basis. Can't blame teams for copying them.

 

[WalkerBoh]

I guess Belichick agrees with me. In his press conference this morning he went out of his way to say "the receiver" deliberately created the contact and that the play was a key play in the game.

There's your excuse grim...

Unfortunately, hardly anyone else in the Media, and no one in the league agreed w/ Belichick.

The explanation from a former official was that it wasn't a penalty (ie. illegal pick or OPI) because the ball had already reached the receiver when it happened. Once the ball hit D. Thomas' hands, it became a legal block.

I didn't like to see Talib get hurt, but by the same token, there's a reason no fines were handed down.

 

[nefansince75]

Get over it, at the very worst it was bad officiating though NFL and Mike Pereira say it was legal. Pats run the same damn play. They use picks to free receivers too. Stop proving to the rest of us that many pats fans are the bitches they are stereotyped to be. When the pats win, you guys claim dominance; when they lose you pull out any of a number of excuses. Maybe instead of bitching about a pick play you should talk about why Brady could not hit the broadside of a barn. Just accept the loss and move on. I know that can be difficult after being such a great team for the past decade plus.

I apologize to the classy pats fans but it is guys like nefansince75 that gives your fan base a terrible image.

Nice job of cherry picking a comment away from its context. As I've stated throughout this post is picks happen because the league does not try to enforce its rules. Many teams do it, that doesn't make it okay.

 

[nefansince75]

Unfortunately, hardly anyone else in the Media, and no one in the league agreed w/ Belichick.

The explanation from a former official was that it wasn't a penalty (ie. illegal pick or OPI) because the ball had already reached the receiver when it happened. Once the ball hit D. Thomas' hands, it became a legal block.

I didn't like to see Talib get hurt, but by the same token, there's a reason no fines were handed down.

but the ball had not already reached the receiver. It was close, call it "bang, bang". Again, the issue goes beyond one play, by one team, in one game.

 

[cdumler7]

but the ball had not already reached the receiver. It was close, call it "bang, bang". Again, the issue goes beyond one play, by one team, in one game.

Well the NFL, past officials, and analyst have all said the ball got to Thomas first then Welker hit and have all said it was a clean play that unfortunately ended in a player getting injured.

So I guess my question would be what would be your fix for this? You can't just say penalize all pick plays because then any kind of crossing route could be considered a pick play. The Screen game then would have to be in question as well. Would there have to be a time limit between when a player catches it and when his other receivers can then start blocking for him? So again saying the NFL needs to get rid of this would entail pretty much changing a huge part of the passing game and well making life hell on refs even more than it already is.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Well the NFL, past officials, and analyst have all said the ball got to Thomas first then Welker hit and have all said it was a clean play that unfortunately ended in a player getting injured.

So I guess my question would be what would be your fix for this? You can't just say penalize all pick plays because then any kind of crossing route could be considered a pick play. The Screen game then would have to be in question as well. Would there have to be a time limit between when a player catches it and when his other receivers can then start blocking for him? So again saying the NFL needs to get rid of this would entail pretty much changing a huge part of the passing game and well making life hell on refs even more than it already is.

There should not a be a fix for it imo because the OFC player is allowed the space to run his route...even if the route is not really an intended target. The cut block is dangerous but the NFL keeps in play...if it's not involving head/neck trauma they're not too anxious to make a change....unless the WR is very obvious the refs are not going to call it.

 

[cdumler7]

There should not a be a fix for it imo because the OFC player is allowed the space to run his route...even if the route is not really an intended target. The cut block is dangerous but the NFL keeps in play...if it's not involving head/neck trauma they're not too anxious to make a change....unless the WR is very obvious the refs are not going to call it.

I agree...The big thing to me is how in the world do you enforce it. Every crossing pattern across the middle with two receivers could potentially be called a pick play. Do you only call it when it is obvious and what is considered obvious then? The refs already have a ton of subjective calls that they have to make decisions on so let's add more and have the refs make that much more of an impact on the game? I just honestly don't see how you regulate the pick play.