PFF on 49ers' OL

[clyde_carbon]

Crushing Blocking

The 49ers were able to win this game thanks largely to dominating the point of attack in the trenches. They were no doubt assisted by the occasional use of the option threat, but Joe Staley, Mike Iupati, Alex Boone and Vernon Davis in particular all made some huge blocks and controlled their linemen at the point of attack. Boone (+3.6) looks to be developing into one of the finest guards around, which makes a change from the revolving door of ugly play the 49ers have had at his position in recent years.

At left guard Iupati (+4.1) was moving people off the line like a bulldozer and on a few occasions he and Joe Staley were able to combine on truly ridiculous looking double team blocks. Early in the 4th quarter the pair of them drove Kendrick Ellis a clear eight yards off the line before grinding him into the turf, opening a chasm wide enough for a first down run with just that single block. On the next snap Ellis lined up on the other side of the line of scrimmage, and I can’t blame him.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/10/02/refo-49ers-jets-week-4/

 

[clyde_carbon]

-Alex Smith faced just five snaps under pressure all game, which is just as well because he completed only one pass on them, for eight yards.

 

[Bemular]

Still no Love for AD from PFF? I wonder what AD did to those little bitches.

 

[Jikkle]

Still no Love for AD from PFF? I wonder what AD did to those little bitches.

He's gotten love from them so far this season.

PFF Week 2 observations

Offensive tackle Anthony Davis is tied for the lead in Pass Blocking Efficiency for tackles at 98.9% after allowing just one hurry in two games. It is a significant improvement after finishing in the bottom half of the league in 2011.

 

[Bemular]

He's gotten love from them so far this season.

PFF Week 2 observations

Offensive tackle Anthony Davis is tied for the lead in Pass Blocking Efficiency for tackles at 98.9% after allowing just one hurry in two games. It is a significant improvement after finishing in the bottom half of the league in 2011.

Thanks Jikkle - Not that PFF has even a shred of credibility when it comes to their O'Line analysis - because they do not, but their analysis of Davis last year was especially incompetent.

 

[ChrisPozz]

Thanks Jikkle - Not that PFF has even a shred of credibility when it comes to their O'Line analysis - because they do not, but their analysis of Davis last year was especially incompetent.

Why?

 

[Bemular]

Why?

In a couple words, Chris - complexities & subjectivities. The O'Line is arguably the most difficult position group to analyze. A credible analysis of the O'Line begins with understanding the protection schemes, the blocking schemes as well as the roles of each player in those schemes and for each team.

As an example of not knowing protection schemes, last year PFF dinged A.Davis for a Babin sack that belonged to Gore or Smith. All they saw was Babin blow-up the edge and charged Davis with the sack. (There were several posters here who did the same thing so it is not unusual to make that assumption.)


Even if PFF did have and understand this information they do not provide their analysts enough time to interpret and accurately evaluate the performance of each O'Lineman on every offensive play for every game. PFF uses a revolving door of too few volunteers for the type of analyses they are trying to produce.

This is a big reason why Neil went to a pay for premium stats so they could pay these individuals. Their offer bombed and last I heard they were still using the revolving door of volunteers. Thus, much of what PFF puts out with regard to these types of analyses is guess work.


PFF uses a pressure statistic that is purely subjective to each situation and personal to each QB. What determines when a QB is under pressure? When a QB moves? When a defender is within a certain distance? Some QB's sense and react to pressure differently so how is that measured?

Last year Smith high-tailed it out of the pocket during the Arizona game when the nearest defender was 6 counties away - Meanwhile Brady laughs at pressure. Again how would one account for these nuances consistently and equitably?


Attribution is another reason their O'Line analysis lacks credibility. Myself and many others could draw up a dozen or more scenarios where there is simply no way to know who is responsible for a sack or a pressure or a hit. Does PFF account for "unassigned or unknown" pressures, hits & sacks? Does PFF keep track of sacks, pressures, etc. allowed by the QB, RB, FB, HB, TE and others?


What about weighting the QB for his pocket presence and tendencies? PFF talks about how some QB's make their lines look good and some make their lines look bad - this fact needs either to be a weighted or footnoted consideration in the type of analysis they are doing.


How about time? I know PFF has discussed using time, thus far however, I have not seen any evidence it is being used or how. But there certainly should be a weighted difference between a pressure, a hit or a sack that happens in 2.5 seconds vs. 3.5 seconds?

And at what point is the QB on his own? 4 maybe 4.5 seconds? What about in pocket vs. scramble sacks, blitz vs. 3 or 4 man rush sacks and the list goes on.

Last year the average time for first touch on Smiths 51 sacks was 3.05 seconds with the sack (control) coming at an average of 3.45 seconds. While it would be helpful to know how quickly pressure arrived in those situations, as mentioned above, that would be highly subjective.


How does PFF stack up using comparative analyses? In some cases okay, while in others they are not even close. Here are just a few examples:

In 2011 PFF ranked the O'Line for the #1 rushing team in the NFL (the Broncos) 32nd - Dead last! They ranked the NYG's O'Line dead last for pass-pro. (Does this represent an arbitrary accounting for the QB factor? Who knows?) They ranked the Bears O'Line 31st in rushing when they were a top-ten rushing team, and again, the list goes on.


Clearly whatever weird science PFF is using to come up with their rankings it can be wildly inconsistent with tangible metrics - much like ESPN's QBR.

Don't misunderstand my sentiment about PFF, I do like what Khaled & Neil are attempting to do over there and in some lesser complex analyses they do pretty good.

However, sometimes when you attempt to create a clearer picture by peeling back the covers you realize there are too many inter-dependencies beneath the surface and you wind up actually creating a more clouded one. Such is the case with their O'Line analysis IMO.

 

[Flyingiguana]

brady laughs at pressure? when he faces pressure he has huge problems. but his line is pretty good so he gets to pick apart teams.

our line overal is playing much better in pass protection. last year the interior line was a huge problem.

 

[Bemular]

brady laughs at pressure? when he faces pressure he has huge problems. but his line is pretty good so he gets to pick apart teams.

our line overal is playing much better in pass protection. last year the interior line was a huge problem.

I can see how my comment could be construed as meaning he doesn't experience pressure and I didn't mean that - my bad. What I meant to suggest was Brady, perhaps better than any QB in the league, can avoid pressure.

We have all seen Tom stand like a statue in the pocket only to watch him take one step to avoid an oncoming pass rusher. His pocket presence is the best I have ever seen and quite possibly the best ever.

Smith, on the other hand, has been given special permission by the league to keep his helmet speaker on so Harbaugh can constantly remind him he is in a football game.

 

[MHSL82]

I can see how my comment could be construed as meaning he doesn't experience pressure and I didn't mean that - my bad. What I meant to suggest was Brady, perhaps better than any QB in the league, can avoid pressure.

We have all seen Tom stand like a statue in the pocket only to watch him take one step to avoid an oncoming pass rusher. His pocket presence is the best I have ever seen and quite possibly the best ever.

Smith, on the other hand, has been given special permission by the league to keep his helmet speaker on so Harbaugh can constantly remind him he is in a football game.

LOL, rep!

 

[clyde_carbon]

I can see how my comment could be construed as meaning he doesn't experience pressure and I didn't mean that - my bad. What I meant to suggest was Brady, perhaps better than any QB in the league, can avoid pressure.

We have all seen Tom stand like a statue in the pocket only to watch him take one step to avoid an oncoming pass rusher. His pocket presence is the best I have ever seen and quite possibly the best ever.

Smith, on the other hand, has been given special permission by the league to keep his helmet speaker on so Harbaugh can constantly remind him he is in a football game.

Not gonna lie, that was pretty funny.

 

[Bemular]

I can see how my comment could be construed as meaning he doesn't experience pressure and I didn't mean that - my bad. What I meant to suggest was Brady, perhaps better than any QB in the league, can avoid pressure.

We have all seen Tom stand like a statue in the pocket only to watch him take one step to avoid an oncoming pass rusher. His pocket presence is the best I have ever seen and quite possibly the best ever.

Smith, on the other hand, has been given special permission by the league to keep his helmet speaker on so Harbaugh can constantly remind him he is in a football game.

LOL, rep!

Glad the humor wasn't lost on ya - *high-five*

 

[Flyingiguana]

I can see how my comment could be construed as meaning he doesn't experience pressure and I didn't mean that - my bad. What I meant to suggest was Brady, perhaps better than any QB in the league, can avoid pressure.

We have all seen Tom stand like a statue in the pocket only to watch him take one step to avoid an oncoming pass rusher. His pocket presence is the best I have ever seen and quite possibly the best ever.

Smith, on the other hand, has been given special permission by the league to keep his helmet speaker on so Harbaugh can constantly remind him he is in a football game.

i think brees has much better pocket presence. brady looks so good because of his line and if u blitz him he makes u pay. if u can get pressure with a 4 man rush, brady looks like crap, but his line rarely gives up that pressure.

 

[wartyOne]

Best pocket presence I've ever seen was Jamarcus Russell.

 

[clyde_carbon]

I think you meant biggest.

 

[wartyOne]

I think you meant biggest.

Did I misspell that?

My bad.

 

[BINGO]

In a couple words, Chris - complexities & subjectivities. The O'Line is arguably the most difficult position group to analyze. A credible analysis of the O'Line begins with understanding the protection schemes, the blocking schemes as well as the roles of each player in those schemes and for each team.

As an example of not knowing protection schemes, last year PFF dinged A.Davis for a Babin sack that belonged to Gore or Smith. All they saw was Babin blow-up the edge and charged Davis with the sack. (There were several posters here who did the same thing so it is not unusual to make that assumption.)


Even if PFF did have and understand this information they do not provide their analysts enough time to interpret and accurately evaluate the performance of each O'Lineman on every offensive play for every game. PFF uses a revolving door of too few volunteers for the type of analyses they are trying to produce.

This is a big reason why Neil went to a pay for premium stats so they could pay these individuals. Their offer bombed and last I heard they were still using the revolving door of volunteers. Thus, much of what PFF puts out with regard to these types of analyses is guess work.


PFF uses a pressure statistic that is purely subjective to each situation and personal to each QB. What determines when a QB is under pressure? When a QB moves? When a defender is within a certain distance? Some QB's sense and react to pressure differently so how is that measured?

Last year Smith high-tailed it out of the pocket during the Arizona game when the nearest defender was 6 counties away - Meanwhile Brady laughs at pressure. Again how would one account for these nuances consistently and equitably?


Attribution is another reason their O'Line analysis lacks credibility. Myself and many others could draw up a dozen or more scenarios where there is simply no way to know who is responsible for a sack or a pressure or a hit. Does PFF account for "unassigned or unknown" pressures, hits & sacks? Does PFF keep track of sacks, pressures, etc. allowed by the QB, RB, FB, HB, TE and others?


What about weighting the QB for his pocket presence and tendencies? PFF talks about how some QB's make their lines look good and some make their lines look bad - this fact needs either to be a weighted or footnoted consideration in the type of analysis they are doing.


How about time? I know PFF has discussed using time, thus far however, I have not seen any evidence it is being used or how. But there certainly should be a weighted difference between a pressure, a hit or a sack that happens in 2.5 seconds vs. 3.5 seconds?

And at what point is the QB on his own? 4 maybe 4.5 seconds? What about in pocket vs. scramble sacks, blitz vs. 3 or 4 man rush sacks and the list goes on.

Last year the average time for first touch on Smiths 51 sacks was 3.05 seconds with the sack (control) coming at an average of 3.45 seconds. While it would be helpful to know how quickly pressure arrived in those situations, as mentioned above, that would be highly subjective.


How does PFF stack up using comparative analyses? In some cases okay, while in others they are not even close. Here are just a few examples:

In 2011 PFF ranked the O'Line for the #1 rushing team in the NFL (the Broncos) 32nd - Dead last! They ranked the NYG's O'Line dead last for pass-pro. (Does this represent an arbitrary accounting for the QB factor? Who knows?) They ranked the Bears O'Line 31st in rushing when they were a top-ten rushing team, and again, the list goes on.


Clearly whatever weird science PFF is using to come up with their rankings it can be wildly inconsistent with tangible metrics - much like ESPN's QBR.

Don't misunderstand my sentiment about PFF, I do like what Khaled & Neil are attempting to do over there and in some lesser complex analyses they do pretty good.

However, sometimes when you attempt to create a clearer picture by peeling back the covers you realize there are too many inter-dependencies beneath the surface and you wind up actually creating a more clouded one. Such is the case with their O'Line analysis IMO.

Bem, this is some impressive sh8t! How do I rep it?

 

[CalamityX11]

Bem, this is some impressive sh8t! How do I rep it?

 

[deep9er]

In a couple words, Chris - complexities & subjectivities. The O'Line is arguably the most difficult position group to analyze. A credible analysis of the O'Line begins with understanding the protection schemes, the blocking schemes as well as the roles of each player in those schemes and for each team.

As an example of not knowing protection schemes, last year PFF dinged A.Davis for a Babin sack that belonged to Gore or Smith. All they saw was Babin blow-up the edge and charged Davis with the sack. (There were several posters here who did the same thing so it is not unusual to make that assumption.)


Even if PFF did have and understand this information they do not provide their analysts enough time to interpret and accurately evaluate the performance of each O'Lineman on every offensive play for every game. PFF uses a revolving door of too few volunteers for the type of analyses they are trying to produce.

This is a big reason why Neil went to a pay for premium stats so they could pay these individuals. Their offer bombed and last I heard they were still using the revolving door of volunteers. Thus, much of what PFF puts out with regard to these types of analyses is guess work.


PFF uses a pressure statistic that is purely subjective to each situation and personal to each QB. What determines when a QB is under pressure? When a QB moves? When a defender is within a certain distance? Some QB's sense and react to pressure differently so how is that measured?

Last year Smith high-tailed it out of the pocket during the Arizona game when the nearest defender was 6 counties away - Meanwhile Brady laughs at pressure. Again how would one account for these nuances consistently and equitably?


Attribution is another reason their O'Line analysis lacks credibility. Myself and many others could draw up a dozen or more scenarios where there is simply no way to know who is responsible for a sack or a pressure or a hit. Does PFF account for "unassigned or unknown" pressures, hits & sacks? Does PFF keep track of sacks, pressures, etc. allowed by the QB, RB, FB, HB, TE and others?


What about weighting the QB for his pocket presence and tendencies? PFF talks about how some QB's make their lines look good and some make their lines look bad - this fact needs either to be a weighted or footnoted consideration in the type of analysis they are doing.


How about time? I know PFF has discussed using time, thus far however, I have not seen any evidence it is being used or how. But there certainly should be a weighted difference between a pressure, a hit or a sack that happens in 2.5 seconds vs. 3.5 seconds?

And at what point is the QB on his own? 4 maybe 4.5 seconds? What about in pocket vs. scramble sacks, blitz vs. 3 or 4 man rush sacks and the list goes on.

Last year the average time for first touch on Smiths 51 sacks was 3.05 seconds with the sack (control) coming at an average of 3.45 seconds. While it would be helpful to know how quickly pressure arrived in those situations, as mentioned above, that would be highly subjective.


How does PFF stack up using comparative analyses? In some cases okay, while in others they are not even close. Here are just a few examples:

In 2011 PFF ranked the O'Line for the #1 rushing team in the NFL (the Broncos) 32nd - Dead last! They ranked the NYG's O'Line dead last for pass-pro. (Does this represent an arbitrary accounting for the QB factor? Who knows?) They ranked the Bears O'Line 31st in rushing when they were a top-ten rushing team, and again, the list goes on.


Clearly whatever weird science PFF is using to come up with their rankings it can be wildly inconsistent with tangible metrics - much like ESPN's QBR.

Don't misunderstand my sentiment about PFF, I do like what Khaled & Neil are attempting to do over there and in some lesser complex analyses they do pretty good.

However, sometimes when you attempt to create a clearer picture by peeling back the covers you realize there are too many inter-dependencies beneath the surface and you wind up actually creating a more clouded one. Such is the case with their O'Line analysis IMO.

so ALL of this is saying.......evaluating players involve some subjectivity.


nah, having detail and examples when asked.....are good.

 

[Bemular]

Bem, this is some impressive sh8t! How do I rep it?

You just did - Thanks BINGO