Peyton Manning

[Tubbs1518]

Playoff time, give me Ben over Peyton Everytime.

 

[flamingrey]

I'd rather just have his defense.

 

[Tubbs1518]

So manning a teams were routinely good enough to be the #1 seed but not win a playoff game?

 

[HammerDown]

Peyton is the best ever.

With no close second.

 

[Tubbs1518]

With no close second.

Not even the best QB ever much less best player. Isn't the best player in the NFL right now.

 

[HammerDown]

Not even the best QB ever much less best player. Isn't the best player in the NFL right now.

And to think that I had no idea!

 

[Tubbs1518]

Good argument. Point taken.

 

[BigBlueNation111]

Let me guess, you think very highly of Bradshaw and Roethlisberger.

 

[flamingrey]

So manning a teams were routinely good enough to be the #1 seed but not win a playoff game?

The best offenses or offensively talented teams/players typically have the most success in the regular season. We've seen this with players like Vick, McNabb, etc. We've seen it with a 15-1 GB team that couldn't win it all. A 16-0 Patriots team. A bunch of excellent Colts offensive teams that won a lot of games. And many others.

To have success in the postseason, offense is important, but unless you have a very good defense, teams will take your best options away AND put extra pressure on you because they wouldn't be in the playoffs without a good offense and they're going against your crappy defense. The Giants have won the playoffs at 9-7 and 10-6. The Packers won it at 10-6. The Steelers at 11-5. All in the last 7 years. All those teams fit that category.

Defense wins championships. Always has, always will.

Are we going to call Brady (one at 16-0, the other 13-3) a choker for losing 2 SB's to a "worse" Giants team?

 

[Tubbs1518]

The best offenses or offensively talented teams/players typically have the most success in the regular season. We've seen this with players like Vick, McNabb, etc. We've seen it with a 15-1 GB team that couldn't win it all. A 16-0 Patriots team. A bunch of excellent Colts offensive teams that won a lot of games. And many others.

To have success in the postseason, offense is important, but unless you have a very good defense, teams will take your best options away AND put extra pressure on you because they wouldn't be in the playoffs without a good offense and they're going against your crappy defense. The Giants have won the playoffs at 9-7 and 10-6. The Packers won it at 10-6. The Steelers at 11-5. All in the last 7 years. All those teams fit that category.

Defense wins championships. Always has, always will.

Are we going to call Brady (one at 16-0, the other 13-3) a choker for losing 2 SB's to a "worse" Giants team?

Difference is Brady has 3 SB's and most playoff wins all time. 17-6 in the playoffs. He is the 2nd best QB of all time and possibly the best if he wins another SB this year.

 

[flamingrey]

Brady is all class.

 

[flamingrey]

Difference is Brady has 3 SB's and most playoff wins all time. 17-6 in the playoffs. He is the 2nd best QB of all time and possibly the best if he wins another SB this year.

He's also had one of the best teams around him for his career, comparatively with all the top guys, especially Peyton.

Didn't somebody also post that Brady's passer rating in the playoffs is worse than Peyton's?

Bradshaw, Roethlisberger.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Brady has 1 more TD, 8 less INT's. He has less yards by about 500 hundred or so. And now you wanna use QB rating, when you have bashed it plenty of times before?

 

[cincygrad]

He's also had one of the best teams around him for his career, comparatively with all the top guys, especially Peyton.

Didn't somebody also post that Brady's passer rating in the playoffs is worse than Peyton's?

Bradshaw, Roethlisberger.

I think you could argue that Manning has had skill players better than Brady's...... Who were Brady's best receivers for his three championships? Mostly guys that wouldn't be much of anything on other teams. Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

Brady had better coaching and that has to be factored in.... But I'll take Brady over Manning every time.

 

[flamingrey]

Brady has 1 more TD, 8 less INT's. He has less yards by about 500 hundred or so. And now you wanna use QB rating, when you have bashed it plenty of times before?

No, I don't want to use it. Simply making the point - that if it were the case - there's way more that goes into SB victories than you're leading on - you know, something called defense.

I wonder what Roethlisberger's QB rating is. It has to be horrible, at least I know it is in the SB. Yet he has 2 of them. Interesting.

 

[flamingrey]

I think you could argue that Manning has had skill players better than Brady's...... Who were Brady's best receivers for his three championships? Mostly guys that wouldn't be much of anything on other teams. Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

Brady had better coaching and that has to be factored in.... But I'll take Brady over Manning every time.

The better skill players is arguable. Peyton has made a lot of receivers look really good.

But like I've been saying. Defense wins championships. While those teams were undoubtedly led by Brady, he'd have exactly 0 SB's if he didn't have that defense.

2001: 6th ranked defense. Won SB.
2002: 17th ranked defense. Missed the playoffs altogether.
2003: 1st ranked defense. Won SB.
2004: 2nd ranked defense. Won SB.

Heck, if you look at Brady's stats some of those years, not knowing whose stats those were, you'd never guess they were Brady's.

2008: Cassel led the team to an 11-5 record.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Roethlisberger has a Playoff Rating of 83.7. Brady 87.8 and Manning 88.4. Those were without todays games factored in.

 

[cincygrad]

I think it's a stretch to say defense wins championships in the modern NFL.

The last five champs were:

2012 -- Giants (very overrated defense - Got hot at the right time).
2011 -- Packers (more offense than defense)
2010 -- Saints (defense that relied on turnovers - Not a dominant group)
2009 -- Steelers (definitely a defensive force)
2008 -- Giants (good defense on that squad)

Of those winners, there were was one great D (Pittsburgh), one very good D (Giants 2008) and the other three were more known for good quarterbacking and good offense at the right time.

 

[flamingrey]

I think it's a stretch to say defense wins championships in the modern NFL.

The last five champs were:

2012 -- Giants (very overrated defense - Got hot at the right time).
2011 -- Packers (more offense than defense)
2010 -- Saints (defense that relied on turnovers - Not a dominant group)
2009 -- Steelers (definitely a defensive force)
2008 -- Giants (good defense on that squad)

Of those winners, there were was one great D (Pittsburgh), one very good D (Giants 2008) and the other three were more known for good quarterbacking and good offense at the right time.

The Giants defense both times around were probably just above average. But in both cases, like you said, they got hot at the right time. So the point still stands. I put up the stats last year sometime, but in every single playoff game those 2 years, they held the opposing team to at least 7 points less than their season average. And many of those games, 14+ points less than their season average. As I also said above, unless you're the Steelers, without good QBing, you aren't going to win either, and the Giants had that.

Even Brady was the bonafide player on those championship teams, but he had a great defense to go along with it. Just as Rodgers had when he won it.

Steelers were a defensive force as you mentioned.

The Saints are the only team on that list whose defense wasn't lights out in the games leading up to the SB and in the SB.

 

[flamingrey]

In the 2 SB runs for the Giants:

2007
Bucs averaged 28 ppg, the Giants only allowed them 14 points
Cowboys averaged 28 ppg, allowed 21 points
GB averaged 27 ppg, allowed 20 points
NE averaged 37 points, allowed 14

2011
Atlanta averaged 25 ppg, allowed 0
GB averaged 35 ppg, allowed 20
SF averaged 24 ppg, allowed 17

Those are some great defensive performances. Never did they allow their opponents to score within a TD of their season averages. 3 of the 7 games they held their opponents to 7 points less than their season averages. 4 out of 7 games they held their opponents to 14 points less than their season averages. In the SB, they held the Pats to 23 points less than their season average.

Coincidentally, those have been their only wins in the playoffs.

Eli Manning is good, but he's NEVER done it without a ton of help.

The other 3 seasons they made the playoffs, each game their opponents scored less than 1-3 points of their season averages and the Giants were 1 and done.

Additionally, 2 of Eli's 7 seasons, they've outright missed the playoffs. And 2 of the 5 seasons they made the playoffs, they did so with 8 and 9 wins.

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/1606913-post47.html

You can bump that to 3 out of 8 seasons.