Perceived great players but never made the finals

[MrFlyingV]

I'll start:

Thornton and Marleau. Alot of numbers but never in an NHL final. If they don't get traded, it will never happen. Not in San Jose.

Others:

Dominic Wilkins
Marcel Dionne (I think)
Eric Dickerson

 

[Cbrower91]

I'll start:

Thornton and Marleau. Alot of numbers but never in an NHL final. If they don't get traded, it will never happen. Not in San Jose.

Others:

Dominic Wilkins
Marcel Dionne (I think)
Eric Dickerson

And all 3 of those guys had shit for a supporting cast, sound familiar? Yzerman never won a cup until he had a great supporting cast primarily a roster full of future hall of famers lol. Same can be said for teams like Av's,Rangers, Pens (both with mario and cindy) Oilers. And thats just recent memory.

I havent hid my dislike my Thornton ever, but to say he isnt a great player is a load of shit.

 

[4thstreet]

And all 3 of those guys had shit for a supporting cast, sound familiar? Yzerman never won a cup until he had a great supporting cast primarily a roster full of future hall of famers lol. Same can be said for teams like Av's,Rangers, Pens (both with mario and cindy) Oilers. And thats just recent memory.

I havent hid my dislike my Thornton ever, but to say he isnt a great player is a load of shit.

totally agree

everyone mentioned ,(except Marleau for now,very good,not great IMO)was or is a great player,regardless of being in a final or not.

 

[sjrules99]

And all 3 of those guys had shit for a supporting cast, sound familiar? Yzerman never won a cup until he had a great supporting cast primarily a roster full of future hall of famers lol. Same can be said for teams like Av's,Rangers, Pens (both with mario and cindy) Oilers. And thats just recent memory.

I havent hid my dislike my Thornton ever, but to say he isnt a great player is a load of shit.

I would amend this by adding "can be" a great player. He is not a great player because truly great players are consistent in their efforts, they raise their game when it matters most, and they beat the oppositions best players consistently.

Also, I cannot say those two have had a shit supporting cast. setoguchi, pavelski, cheechoo, michalek, and clowe all played with those two in 2008-9. Hell even grier potted double digit goals on that team. On D, they had boyle, blake, ehrhoff, and pickles putting up big points. 10 total players with double digit goals. Gee, I would call that a supporting cast. Unfortunately they lost in the 1st round to ANA with jumbo and patty getting crushed by getzlaf and perry. the big two combined for a total of one even strength goal in the series.

Im not gunna say jumbo and patty have had federov, shanahan, or lidstrom to play with, but they also havent had chopped liver (except until last year). There is no doubt that these two have well earned their reputations as good players who should be great but who are massive underachievers.

 

[sjrules99]

even better the next year had a top 7 of:

Thornton, marleau, heatley (who was on the best line hockey that carried the sens to the finals a year or two before), pavelski, setoguchi, clowe, and couture. That's an impressive top 7. not to mention manny malhotra (coming off an 11g, 35 pt season the year before) as a #8. The depth and team was there, but in the key series vs. chicago, the great joe thornton managed one single assist and a whopping -5 in those 4 games. He had a total of zero even stretch points. So, is that because the rest of the team was bad? Is that because his linemates just didnt score? No, it's because jumbo joe is famous for that. Patty, as it were, had a great series that series and was the only truly effective player. However, Ironically, he was lucky to reach that point as his pathetic play in round one vs the avs nearly cost the sharks that series (that was 3 pts in 6 games and -2).

neither patty nor joe have put together the kind of long consistent stretch needed to go deep in the PO's. Both are so prone to extended lapses (like right now) and in the PO's, those are magnified and they divide the great players from the very good ones.

 

[bdave]

even better the next year had a top 7 of:

Thornton, marleau, heatley (who was on the best line hockey that carried the sens to the finals a year or two before), pavelski, setoguchi, clowe, and couture. That's an impressive top 7. not to mention manny malhotra (coming off an 11g, 35 pt season the year before) as a #8. The depth and team was there, but in the key series vs. chicago, the great joe thornton managed one single assist and a whopping -5 in those 4 games. He had a total of zero even stretch points. So, is that because the rest of the team was bad? Is that because his linemates just didnt score? No, it's because jumbo joe is famous for that. Patty, as it were, had a great series that series and was the only truly effective player. However, Ironically, he was lucky to reach that point as his pathetic play in round one vs the avs nearly cost the sharks that series (that was 3 pts in 6 games and -2).

neither patty nor joe have put together the kind of long consistent stretch needed to go deep in the PO's. Both are so prone to extended lapses (like right now) and in the PO's, those are magnified and they divide the great players from the very good ones.

Remember when they used to be called regular season champs? Now they are just called losers.

 

[MrFlyingV]

O.J. Simpson

 

[Cbrower91]

even better the next year had a top 7 of:

Thornton, marleau, heatley (who was on the best line hockey that carried the sens to the finals a year or two before), pavelski, setoguchi, clowe, and couture. That's an impressive top 7. not to mention manny malhotra (coming off an 11g, 35 pt season the year before) as a #8. The depth and team was there, but in the key series vs. chicago, the great joe thornton managed one single assist and a whopping -5 in those 4 games. He had a total of zero even stretch points. So, is that because the rest of the team was bad? Is that because his linemates just didnt score? No, it's because jumbo joe is famous for that. Patty, as it were, had a great series that series and was the only truly effective player. However, Ironically, he was lucky to reach that point as his pathetic play in round one vs the avs nearly cost the sharks that series (that was 3 pts in 6 games and -2).

neither patty nor joe have put together the kind of long consistent stretch needed to go deep in the PO's. Both are so prone to extended lapses (like right now) and in the PO's, those are magnified and they divide the great players from the very good ones.

Heatley started his slide into not even mediocrity that year was he good yes great no, an the only reason he was good was because Thornton and Marleau made him that way.

Same could be said for Seto,Clowe and Pavelski, none of these guys help Marleau and Thornton. Unlike say Yzerman and Federov or Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They didnt really help but they benefited from drawing the lesser defensive assignements from other teams.

Its not like anyone on the sharks second lines are like Messier and Anderson that was there for Gretzky and Kurri. Theyve all been players that have played above their rolls as 3rd liners brought up to second liners.

Couture is the only one i would remotely consider a legit second liner on the team, and im a tweener on Havlat but he hasnt had a regular linemate.

I dont know if I would call Marleau great per say but he has the ability to be great when paired with good players, his consitant scoring through out his career has proven that.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Mike Gartner
Dan Fouts
Charlie Joiner
Steve Largent
Derrick Thomas

 

[Cbrower91]

Mike Gartner
Dan Fouts
Charlie Joiner
Steve Largent
Derrick Thomas

Was Gartner ever precieved to be great? i dont think so. Largent was i know,Derrick Thomas and that whole KC defense was, hard to win when Steve Deberg is your QB

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Was Gartner ever precieved to be great? i dont think so. Largent was i know,Derrick Thomas and that whole KC defense was, hard to win when Steve Deberg is your QB

Gartner is 30th in all time scoring in league history with 708G 627A 1335PTS. That's more than guys like Bobby Clark, Jean Beliveau & numerous other current & future Hall of Famers. I'd say he was a great player. He just played on teams that couldn't get over the hump.

 

[Cbrower91]

Gartner is 30th in all time scoring in league history with 708G 627A 1335PTS. That's more than guys like Bobby Clark, Jean Beliveau & numerous other current & future Hall of Famers. I'd say he was a great player. He just played on teams that couldn't get over the hump.

Yeah but the thread title implies that these players werent great. I always liked Gartner classy pro, but i dont put him in the Bobby Hull type great

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

There are only 5 players in NHL history who have scored more goals than Mike Gartner.

Wayne Gretzky 894
Gordie Howe 801
Brett Hull 741
Marcel Dionne 731
Phil Esposito 717

If that doesn't make Mike Gartner a great player, I don't know what does.

 

[thedddd]

There are only 5 players in NHL history who have scored more goals than Mike Gartner.

Wayne Gretzky 894
Gordie Howe 801
Brett Hull 741
Marcel Dionne 731
Phil Esposito 717

If that doesn't make Mike Gartner a great player, I don't know what does.

Yeah he was a great player but his perception reminds me of Fred McGriff or Andre Dawson in baseball. You don't realize how great they were until you look at the numbers.


Back on topic.

Luc Robitaille
Dino Ciccarelli
Mats Sundin
Pat LaFontaine
Peter Stastny

In football
Tony Gonzalez and a ton of WR's
Chris Carter, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown and mentioned Steve Largent.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Gartner won a cup with the Rangers.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Yeah he was a great player but his perception reminds me of Fred McGriff or Andre Dawson in baseball. You don't realize how great they were until you look at the numbers.


Back on topic.

Luc Robitaille
Dino Ciccarelli
Mats Sundin
Pat LaFontaine
Peter Stastny

In football
Tony Gonzalez and a ton of WR's
Chris Carter, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown and mentioned Steve Largent.

And Tim Brown and Terrell Owens played in the Super Bowl. Luc won a cup with the Wings. Dino played in a couple finals. Pat played in the finals.

 

[4thstreet]

Yeah he was a great player but his perception reminds me of Fred McGriff or Andre Dawson in baseball. You don't realize how great they were until you look at the numbers.


Back on topic.

Luc Robitaille
Dino Ciccarelli
Mats Sundin
Pat LaFontaine
Peter Stastny

In football
Tony Gonzalez and a ton of WR's
Chris Carter, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown and mentioned Steve Largent.

Ciccarelli played in finals in '95 for wings against Devils

 

[thedddd]

Gartner won a cup with the Rangers.

Gartner was traded away the year the Rangers won.

 

[thedddd]

Ciccarelli played in finals in '95 for wings against Devils

My fault i thought it said never won....

 

[thedddd]

And Tim Brown and Terrell Owens played in the Super Bowl. Luc won a cup with the Wings. Dino played in a couple finals. Pat played in the finals.

Thats right about Luc and for the others I thought it said never won my mistake.