Panda contract?

[tzill]

According to Baggs, Panda rejects 3/40, and seeks at least Pence money (5/80)

Sandoval turns down Giants' three-year, $40 million offer | CSN Bay Area

So....how about splitting the difference and 4/60?

 

[tzill]

Thinking this through, if Panda will take a Pence to sign, we should do that yesterday. If the Giants have the opportunity to go under nine figures, they would be goofy not to do it. The equation is simple:

All-Star hitters cost about $18 million now

Sandoval is an All-Star hitter

The Giants like All-Star hitters

I like All-Star hitters

There is no help coming from the farm

There is no help coming from the farm

There is no help coming from the farm

So if the Giants want an All-Star third baseman, they'll have to pay a lot of money, or give up a lot of young pitching in a trade

Luckily, there's an internal option, and he doesn't even want a silly seven-year deal

 

[msgkings322]

Thinking this through, if Panda will take a Pence to sign, we should do that yesterday. If the Giants have the opportunity to go under nine figures, they would be goofy not to do it. The equation is simple:

All-Star hitters cost about $18 million now

Sandoval is an All-Star hitter

The Giants like All-Star hitters

I like All-Star hitters

There is no help coming from the farm

There is no help coming from the farm

There is no help coming from the farm

So if the Giants want an All-Star third baseman, they'll have to pay a lot of money, or give up a lot of young pitching in a trade

Luckily, there's an internal option, and he doesn't even want a silly seven-year deal

Yeah, named Buster Posey. This deal isn't as simple as getting a good 3B. Do we instead deal Belt? Move him to left? I would think if they wanted to do that they would have done so by now considering who we have out there...

I guess if they keep it to 4 years we might not really need to move Posey over until the end of the deal, Posey is still pretty young and seems to be focusing on the conditioning needed to stay productive at catcher.

 

[MarcoPolo]

We've had this discussion already.

 

[msgkings322]

We've had this discussion already.

What did we decide?

 

[calsnowskier]

What did we decide?

We decided that you and I agree, but tz has planted his heals.

 

[msgkings322]

We decided that you and I agree, but tz has planted his heals.

Got it.

As mentioned if we keep the years reasonable Posey doesn't necessarily have to move right away...

 

[calsnowskier]

Got it.

As mentioned if we keep the years reasonable Posey doesn't necessarily have to move right away...

On KNBR, they are saying ANYTHING at 3 years or under is fine. While I do not agree with the "ANYTHING" aspect 100%, I basically agree. I would prefer 2, but Panda is a commodity, and you have to give a bit to get him to stay. I doubt he will take a 3-year deal, though. On the open-market, he will likely be able to get 6 or 7 years and 15M+.

Just a note, there may be a few other decent 3B on the market this coming year. Headley will most certainly be on the market unless he is traded then signs with his new team and HanRam (granted, he is no Arias) may be available as well.

This may be something that causes Panda's team to want to take a more team-friendly deal.

 

[SFGRTB]

Sounds like they want AT LEAST Pence money. Meaning that's a starting point. He's unlikely to get any cheaper form there. This topic is really going to be unresolved until the offseason, I doubt the two side come to an agreement in-season, and there isn't much pre-season left.

 

[tzill]

We decided that you and I agree, but tz has planted his heals.

Who am I curing?

 

[Band of Brothers]

I don't blame the Giants for not opening up the bank for Sandoval right now. His dumb ass agent should of kept his mouth shut and Sandoval should fire his ass today. His agent popped off saying Pablo deserves to be paid Pence money over 5 years. My ass he does ! Sandoval put on major pounds even after he was warned in 2010 when the Giants won the World Series. He sat the bench in the playoffs for the most part. The Giants stuck by Sandoval through all of his personal problems and the weight gain. Now his agent says Sandoval has a personal trainer 24 hours a day and a personal chef (his brother) . Where was his dedication to the team back then. Sandoval did this to himself and his agent is a idiot for talking like Sandoval all of a sudden when the money is on the line that Pablo is dedicated.

I remember back the last time he had a contract year (2011) he lost some weight and then as soon as he signed the new deal he gained all the weight back and more. I don't blame the Giants at all for not kissing his ass now. Sandoval is a great player but he could of been better and I don't blame the Giants for making him sweat a little here. MLB is a put up or shut up game and his agent needs to shut up until Pablo proves his dedication and can prove he can stay healthy over a period of time. I like Sandoval but his agent is a idiot. If he does not feel some obligation to the team after all they went through with him then tough shit. Move Posey to third and go with Sanchez and Susac behind the dish. I hope Sandoval stays but if he gets 90 mill over 5 years he is going to have to sign a weight clause in his contract or the Giants brass are idiots.

Pablo Sandoval

2011 117 games played

2012 108 games played

2013 141 games played

Hunter Pence

2008 157 games played

2009 159 games played

2010 156 games played

2011 154 games played

2012 160 games played

2013 all 162 games played


I rest my case.

 

[tzill]

I don't blame the Giants for not opening up the bank for Sandoval right now. His dumb ass agent should of kept his mouth shut and Sandoval should fire his ass today. His agent popped off saying Pablo deserves to be paid Pence money over 5 years. My ass he does ! Sandoval put on major pounds even after he was warned in 2010 when the Giants won the World Series. He sat the bench in the playoffs for the most part. The Giants stuck by Sandoval through all of his personal problems and the weight gain. Now his agent says Sandoval has a personal trainer 24 hours a day and a personal chef (his brother) . Where was his dedication to the team back then. Sandoval did this to himself and his agent is a idiot for talking like Sandoval all of a sudden when the money is on the line that Pablo is dedicated.

I remember back the last time he had a contract year (2011) he lost some weight and then as soon as he signed the new deal he gained all the weight back and more. I don't blame the Giants at all for not kissing his ass now. Sandoval is a great player but he could of been better and I don't blame the Giants for making him sweat a little here. MLB is a put up or shut up game and his agent needs to shut up until Pablo proves his dedication and can prove he can stay healthy over a period of time. I like Sandoval but his agent is a idiot. If he does not feel some obligation to the team after all they went through with him then tough shit. Move Posey to third and go with Sanchez and Susac behind the dish. I hope Sandoval stays but if he gets 90 mill over 5 years he is going to have to sign a weight clause in his contract or the Giants brass are idiots.

2012 117 games played

2013 108 games played

2014 141 games played

Hunter Pence

2008 157 games played

2009 159 games played

2010 156 games played

2011 154 games played

2012 160 games played

2013 all 162 games played


I rest my case.

The problem with your analysis:

1. Panda signed his last contract in Jan 2012, weeks before he lost all the weight. He kept it off all year, IIRC.
2. I don't think you can include anything but a nominal weight clause in a players contract. The only one's I could find were for Carlos Lee (nominal); Bengie Molina (had to participate in a training program during the offseason, no weight number), Jose Lopez (four $25k bonuses for being in shape); Delmon Young (six, $100k bonuses for losing and keeping off 10 lbs); Curt Schilling (Six $333k bonuses for a pretty easy weight standard).
3. Panda will get 7 years/$100MM plus this offseason if we don't re-sign him now.
4. If we give him Pence money, we can always trade him when Susac comes up and dominates.
5. If he balloons up, several AL teams would trade for him as a DH.
6. Your GP analysis has nothing to do with his weight -- he broke both hamate bones and had them removed.

We've got to get him signed ASAP.

 

[Band of Brothers]

The problem with your analysis:

1. Panda signed his last contract in Jan 2012, weeks before he lost all the weight. He kept it off all year, IIRC.
2. I don't think you can include anything but a nominal weight clause in a players contract. The only one's I could find were for Carlos Lee (nominal); Bengie Molina (had to participate in a training program during the offseason, no weight number), Jose Lopez (four $25k bonuses for being in shape); Delmon Young (six, $100k bonuses for losing and keeping off 10 lbs); Curt Schilling (Six $333k bonuses for a pretty easy weight standard).
3. Panda will get 7 years/$100MM plus this offseason if we don't re-sign him now.
4. If we give him Pence money, we can always trade him when Susac comes up and dominates.
5. If he balloons up, several AL teams would trade for him as a DH.
6. Your GP analysis has nothing to do with his weight -- he broke both hamate bones and had them removed.

We've got to get him signed ASAP.

It's not just about the games missed. His personal problems and weight gains did not show dedication to the team. The fact is his weight caused him to be slower and not as good on defense . He also had trouble turning on pitches because of his belly. I can also remember him pulling muscles in his groin and legs that was caused directly by his excessive weight. The biggest thing for me is that he signed the contract but ballooned up in 2013 when he knew a new contract was coming due. It's not my money but 100 mill is big bank and he should sign a weight clause if he wants big bank. Fool me once shame on you ...fool me twice ...shame on me. I want him to stay but he has to give some to get some.

 

[Band of Brothers]

When it comes down to it with Sandoval is that watching him over the years I can see so much talent not being used. I guess it is the coach in me that wants him to achieve greatness. Watching him hit those 3 jacks in game 1 of the 2012 WS and winning the MVP shows you his pure potential and if he could pull it all together he could make a serious run at the Hall of Fame.

I hope it all works out for him and the Giants when all the dust is settled. No one I know wants Sandoval gone and I hope he can keep the weight off not only for baseball but for his overall health in his future. I want to see his run at greatness here in the City by the Bay.

 

[tzill]

It's not just about the games missed. His personal problems and weight gains did not show dedication to the team. The fact is his weight caused him to be slower and not as good on defense . He also had trouble turning on pitches because of his belly. I can also remember him pulling muscles in his groin and legs that was caused directly by his excessive weight. The biggest thing for me is that he signed the contract but ballooned up in 2013 when he knew a new contract was coming due. It's not my money but 100 mill is big bank and he should sign a weight clause if he wants big bank. Fool me once shame on you ...fool me twice ...shame on me. I want him to stay but he has to give some to get some.

I'd agree that when he's heavy he's not a good defender. When he's slim, he's excellent. That aside, the bolded is problematic:

1. No evidence his weight kept him from turning on pitches. Didn't see that and I doubt it.
2. Proximity is not causation -- you've no idea what caused his muscle pulls (and I don't recall many of those).
3. He doesn't HAVE to sign a weight clause to get $100MM. Why would he do so?

We may or may not sign him, but you're living in fantasyland if you think he'll voluntarily sign a weight clause, and I don't think the MLBPA would allow one with any teeth in it. If he can and does, the Giants will have to pay extra for that.

 

[NBKLee]

If you could guarantee me 2010 MVP Pablo Sandoval, then 5 years $90 mil total is a steal, but you can't.

But instead of the Panda, he's turned into "IMAX" these last few years, his weight wobbles more than his bobblehead.

Overpaying for Pablo would be a mistake, I'd give him 4 years $50 mil at the most, and add clauses for the standard awards, playoffs, weight levels. 4 years $50 mil total might be overpaying.

Pre Posey, Pablo was the face of the 'chise, his hats sell well apparently. But given the finances, and the current payroll setup, I can't imagine Sabean bending over and offering $90 mil for this guy. He isn't worth it.

 

[Mays-Fan]

If you could guarantee me 2010 MVP Pablo Sandoval, then 5 years $90 mil total is a steal, but you can't.

But instead of the Panda, he's turned into "IMAX" these last few years, his weight wobbles more than his bobblehead.

Overpaying for Pablo would be a mistake, I'd give him 4 years $50 mil at the most, and add clauses for the standard awards, playoffs, weight levels. 4 years $50 mil total might be overpaying.

Pre Posey, Pablo was the face of the 'chise, his hats sell well apparently. But given the finances, and the current payroll setup, I can't imagine Sabean bending over and offering $90 mil for this guy. He isn't worth it.

Yeah, I'm leaning more toward a position like this. Giving Pence the money was the right thing to do, because he is such a physical specimen, and IMO he has very good odds of performing at his current level for the duration of his contract. Giving Panda 5/90 or more is much more of a gamble. Losing him would be sad, but to quote the promoter in Cinderella Man, my heart is for my family, but my brains and my balls are for business, and this is business.

I could go 4/50, or even 4/60, depending on the state of the finances, which admittedly, I, nor anyone here, knows anything about.

And the upside of losing him, as stated by others, is that it actually solves a problem about what to do with Belt and Posey. And the money saved can be invested elsewhere (like a #5 pitcher, or a quality LF). So if we lose him, vaya con Dios, El Panda Grande.

 

[SF11704]

This is probably the toughest call for management to make .... along the lines of what I think Tzill's thinking is .... getting Panda for Pence money could maybe be the GREATEST deal we make .... if he does in fact hit the premier level of 3Bmen .... David Wright's contact comes to mind .... Panda would look like a steal .... the real querstion is ..... which Panda will we see in each of the contract years ... and are we willing to spend Pence money to get that 'look' .... I still think that we would be able tio trade him to an AL team if his weight becomes an issue again ....

 

[msgkings322]

If you could guarantee me 2010 MVP Pablo Sandoval, then 5 years $90 mil total is a steal, but you can't.

But instead of the Panda, he's turned into "IMAX" these last few years, his weight wobbles more than his bobblehead.

Overpaying for Pablo would be a mistake, I'd give him 4 years $50 mil at the most, and add clauses for the standard awards, playoffs, weight levels. 4 years $50 mil total might be overpaying.

Pre Posey, Pablo was the face of the 'chise, his hats sell well apparently. But given the finances, and the current payroll setup, I can't imagine Sabean bending over and offering $90 mil for this guy. He isn't worth it.

This really isn't true based on his likely production and age and position (not always one where big hitters play). If we don't pay him some other team definitely will, and it won't be an overpay. We just have to decide how he fits in considering our unique challenge with Posey and Belt.

I like tzill's logic, if we pay him and he fats up again, he can be traded for 80 cents on the dollar to an AL team to DH.

Also, and this is hard for most fans to stomach, the numbers just keep rising every year, for all players. $15 million is the new $10 million. It just is. We debated a long time about the Pence deal, and now it looks like a steal compared to what came after.

He's definitely worth it, because the market will pay him that and more.

 

[Mays-Fan]

This really isn't true based on his likely production and age and position (not always one where big hitters play). If we don't pay him some other team definitely will, and it won't be an overpay. We just have to decide how he fits in considering our unique challenge with Posey and Belt.

I like tzill's logic, if we pay him and he fats up again, he can be traded for 80 cents on the dollar to an AL team to DH.

Also, and this is hard for most fans to stomach, the numbers just keep rising every year, for all players. $15 million is the new $10 million. It just is. We debated a long time about the Pence deal, and now it looks like a steal compared to what came after.

He's definitely worth it, because the market will pay him that and more.

Fair points, all, but I would take some exception to the bolded. I don't necessarily agree that just because NY, LA, TX, or Bos would pay more for him, that we could afford to outbid them (see Tanaka). The high end of "the market" likely doesn't include us.

But again, no one here has visibility into the revenue situation, and that is obviously rapidly changing.