OT -- Nelson Mandela died today at age 95

[optimist4720]

Well, a major contributor to the crime explosion in Phoenix involves the hispanic population. Not sure why that is, probably the poverty that many live in. I don't suspect the people who do work for me of being illegals. They are innocent until proven otherwise. Do I have a problem with the lawmen in Arizona questioning them about their status, no I don't. I would expect nothing less, that is their job. Its not my job to try and ascertain that though.

Well stated.. I have no real problem with the law if it is applied for all. That is my basic premise..that it be applied to all . Just like I have no problem with a cop who asks to see my drivers license or the drivers license of minorities. It is applied uniformly with license and insurance docs provided on request. So the problem lies in selective enforcement as previously stated. Round ups by their very nature is selective enforcement. Detaining citizens HAS happened with no due process by your sheriff ..and hence the controversy. Other sheriff in your state don't seem to generate nearly as much controversy yet seem to enforce the same laws. Perhaps they are more tactful in the implementation of the law and manage to not offend their minority citizens. Perhaps they are the model that should be copied by Sheriff Ahole to lessen tension and ease acceptance of the law.

 

[whysies]

The only thing worse than being either is being a brain dead, moron. Politics are for mindless, dumbfucks, who have no clue about how the world really operates. You catch my drift, bro? If not I'll explain it to you with a quickness. You let me know.

No bro, I missed your drift. Help me catch it.

 

[optimist4720]

The myths

[edit] Illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes
All immigrants pay taxes whether they are illegal or not. They pay them in the form of property tax - directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent; sales tax on all the goods they buy, and income tax at Federal, State and local level.
Since illegal immigrants often have fake or stolen documents, including fake and stolen Social Security numbers, the money they pay into the system is money that will never be withdrawn. The amount in question is evidenced by the Social Security Administration’s “suspense file” (taxes that cannot be matched to workers’ names and Social Security numbers), which grew $20 billion between 1990 and 1998.[1][2]
Still, the true owners of the Social Security numbers are often targeted by the IRS for failure to pay taxes, resulting in real victimization of legal residents.[3]

[edit] Legal immigrants come here to get "welfare"
Immigrants come to work and to reunite with family members.
Immigrant labor-force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S., unless the “study” was undertaken by an anti-immigrant group. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.[4]
Since the welfare reform of 1996, when limits were implemented cutting off benefits to two years consecutively or five years cumulatively, this is a bogus accusation.
To immigrate into the US, you must have a sponsor (generally the family member, such as the spouse, bringing you into the country) who will testify that he or she has enough money to support you, if you are unable to support yourself, or if you lose your job. This agreement means that within the first 5 years of living in the US, you cannot take welfare. Your family member will be assessed a penalty if you demand it.

[edit] Immigrants send all their money back to their home countries
In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.[5]
Also, if you are going to complain that immigrants send money back to their home countries, you have to also raise a stink that very often, the rich offshore their money in foreign banks.

[edit] Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans
The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with the lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.[6]
Illegal immigrants, as well as legal immigrants with little job skills or language skills often take the work seen by most Americans as "beneath them." Janitorial services, crop pickers and garbage collectors need workers, and they do not find them from high-school-educated, English-speaking citizens. As a demonstration of this fact, in Georgia, a 2011 crackdown on illegal immigrants caused many to be deported and more to flee the state. This caused a shortage of labor on the state's farms, indicating that illegal immigrants in that state do not compete very much with Americans for jobs.

[edit] Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy
During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum.
Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age.[7]
Due to welfare reform, legal immigrants are severely restricted from accessing public benefits, and illegal immigrants are even further precluded from anything other than emergency services. Anti-immigrant groups skew these figures by including programs used by U.S. citizen children of immigrants in their definition of immigrant welfare use, among other tactics. transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years.

[edit] Immigrants don’t want to learn English or become Americans
Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001.[8]

[edit] Today’s immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago





NYT ad 1854 including "No Irish Need Apply"In the sense that they are coming to America from different parts of the world that is true. However, the percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today’s immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today’s immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.[9]

[edit] Most immigrants cross the border illegally
Around 75% have legal permanent (immigrant) visas; of the 25% that are here illegally, 40% overstayed temporary (nonimmigrant) visas.[10]
Prior to modern immigration laws, and even prior to the existence of the United States, Europeans came to the continent without any paperwork whatsoever.

[edit] Weak U.S. border enforcement has led to high levels of illegal immigration
From 1986 to 1998, the Border Patrol’s budget increased sixfold and the number of agents stationed on our southwest border doubled to 8,500. The Border Patrol also toughened its enforcement strategy, heavily fortifying typical urban entry points and pushing migrants into dangerous desert areas, in hopes of deterring crossings. Instead, the illegal immigrant population doubled in that period, to 8 million - despite the legalization of nearly 3 million immigrants after the enactment of the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986. Insufficient legal avenues for immigrants to enter the U.S., compared with the number of jobs available to them, have created this current conundrum.[11]

[edit] The war on terrorism can be won through immigration restrictions
No security expert since September 11, 2001 has said that restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the terrorist attacks—instead, the key is good use of good intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal tourist or student visas (but some did overstay on those). Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants in the name of national security have netted no terrorism prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with information.[12]

[edit] Illegal immigrants are the source of many communicable diseases
Anti-immigrant advocates including Lou Dobbs have claimed that Mexican border-crossers are the source of a rampant increase in leprosy. CDC and Department for Health and Human Services statistics do not bear this myth out.[13]

[edit] Illegal immigrants cause crime
Whilst a common cry of the anti immigration brigade - and the font of endless anecdotal "evidence" - the facts[14][15] don't support this.

[edit] The government is not enforcing existing immigration laws
By September 2011, Barack Obama has exceeded the number of removals from the United States during the entire Bush Administration.[16] Simply put, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for the government to round up and deport every illegal immigrant. The agency responsible for doing so, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), has limited resources (finances, officers, jail spaces etc.) and must prioritize how they are spent (as well as figuring out how to spend resources on enforcing US Customs laws).[17] Simply put, a migrant farm laborer's family probably is not as high on ICE's priority list for deportation as as a major drug trafficker might be. Furthermore, aliens involved in deportation proceedings are entitled to due process regardless of their status in the United States.[18]

 

[optimist4720]

Even FOX Business says Illegal Immigrants benefit the economy!





Seeded by McSpocky
View Original Article:

SOURCE FAVICONFox Business | Business News & Stock Quotes - Saving & Investing

Seeded on Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:28 PM


us-news


economy


texas


racism


arizona


discrimination


illegal-immigration


hispanics


latinos


undocumented-workers


public-services


federal-taxes


state-taxes


tax-revenues


local-taxes


economic-output


state-economies


arizona-benefits


economic-benefit-to-the-economy




Discuss: 79 16 !



In a 2006 study, Texas earned more in taxes than it spent on public services to illegal immigrants. State and local governments spent $1.16 billion to provide services, but raised an estimated $1.58 billion in tax revenues. The Texas taxpayer made a $424.7 million profit on its illegal immigrant population in 2006.

Illegal immigrants contribute mostly to state and local through sales and property taxes. A majority of illegal immigrants pay federal, state and local income tax as well. Arizona and Texas' economies and tax policies are similar, suggesting Arizona may also receive net economic and fiscal benefits from illegal immigrants

Economic output of illegal immigrants in Texas was estimated at $17.7 billion in additional gross state product in 2005 alone. Experts estimate Arizona benefits from similar revenue and economic gains from its illegal immigrant population because of similar tax structures and proportionate illegal immigrant populations based on state populations.

Calls for closing the border and deporting all illegal immigrants – which some extreme anti-immigrant groups have called for in Arizona – would have dramatic negative impacts to state economies.

Other sources of information about the positive economic impact of undocumented workers:


“Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs.

Source

Here Illegally, Working Hard and Paying Taxes


“(2005) As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

Source


“He said the tax contributions from illegal immigrants, including sales taxes, property taxes and excise taxes (such as the gas tax), are significant.

“He calculates that illegal immigrants contributed $428 billion dollars to the nation's $13.6 trillion gross domestic product in 2006.

Source


“In addition to immigrant households contributing $133 billion dollars to the government, the American Immigration Lawyers Association also reports that immigrants "may add as much as $10 billion dollars to the economy each year" (Preston). This is a vast amount of wealth that may hurt the U.S. economy if illegal immigrants did not contribute this much money. Clearly, illegal immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy as much as their income allows them to because they want to help make this country thriving.

Source


“"There's a significant body of estimations, of literature out there, that shows there's a 'net plus' to having undocumented immigrants," says James Gerber, Ph.D. professor of economics and director of the international business program at San Diego State University.

Source


“if undocumented immigrants were removed from the economy, it would reduce U.S. GDP by $2.6 trillion over ten years. Hinojosa-Ojeda also confirmed that if undocumented immigrants were put on an earned path to legalization as part of a comprehensive immigration reform law, it would result in some additional $1.5 trillion in our gross domestic product over 10 years.

“The study estimates that a strategy aimed at deporting the nation's population of illegal immigrants would cost the government approximately $285 billion over five years. (A deportation-only policy would amount to $922 in new taxes for "every man, woman, and child in this country)."

Source


“A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

“The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.

“The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don't want here in the first place.

“Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around

 

[TobyTyler]

I suppose the one thing that cannot be denied though is that they are here illegally and are thus criminals and subject to arrest. We all are expected to obey the laws of the country we live in and these folks are breaking the law every day of their lives. I guess that is the one irrefutable fact that the liberals cannot get around. If the illegals can choose to break this law with impunity, why then can I not decide to rob banks with the same impunity?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The heroes I named weren't helping oppressed people. They were saving nations, discovering new worlds or discovering medicines that saved millions of lives. I think I established well back what my criteria for a hero was.. Pray tell what Salk's ulterior motive for discovering a polio vaccine was or Fleming's for discovering penicillin.

You aren't looking at primary motivations. You're looking at any motivation/the end result of their actions. Let's consider the true primary motivations of a few of these guys. FDR: protecting the US/establishing the US as a world power. Churchill: protecting the UK/maintaining what was left of the empire. Soldiers who fought in WWII: returning home alive. I don't know enough about Salk to weigh in on his motivations. It's entirely possible his were entirely altruistic. But his role is rather different from that of a political leader.

Now, as you pointed out, if someone's primary motivation isn't entirely benevolent, the good they do for others apparently doesn't count. So I really don't see how any of the semi-geo-political figures you mentioned were "heroes" under the definition you provided.

You have a tendency to provide a definition for something, use an example that is easily dismantled when your standard for something that doesn't fit that definition is applied to something you claim does, and then ignore it. It's slightly obnoxious and juvenile. Though I've long stopped expecting any sort of consistency from you.

 

[RoboticDreams]

No bro, I missed your drift. Help me catch it.

Meh, I'm over it now. Just getting pumped for today's game. Have a good one.

 

[TobyTyler]

You aren't looking at primary motivations. You're looking at any motivation/the end result of their actions. Let's consider the true primary motivations of a few of these guys. FDR: protecting the US/establishing the US as a world power. Churchill: protecting the UK/maintaining what was left of the empire. Soldiers who fought in WWII: returning home alive. I don't know enough about Salk to weigh in on his motivations. It's entirely possible his were entirely altruistic. But his role is rather different from that of a political leader.

Now, as you pointed out, if someone's primary motivation isn't entirely benevolent, the good they do for others apparently doesn't count. So I really don't see how any of the semi-geo-political figures you mentioned were "heroes" under the definition you provided.

You have a tendency to provide a definition for something, use an example that is easily dismantled when your standard for something that doesn't fit that definition is applied to something you claim does, and then ignore it. It's slightly obnoxious and juvenile. Though I've long stopped expecting any sort of consistency from you.

Now you are getting it. Their motivation was the advancement of their nation and its people and saving lives. Thus they are heroes. It doesn't get any more benevolent than that. I knew you'd come around eventually.

 

[TobyTyler]

Meh, I'm over it now. Just getting pumped for today's game. Have a good one.

I'm looking forward to this one as well.

 

[Breaker99]

Fuck off, you silly piece of shit.

Yeah, thats what most racists say when they get called on their shit. They have no defense other than more knuckle dragging remarks.

 

[Breaker99]

LOL! Total ignorance. Ever heard of probable cause? Need a warrant for that you fool?

Having a certain skin color is not probably cause you retard. God you have no concept of the things you speak of.

 

[TobyTyler]

Yeah, thats what most racists say when they get called on their shit. They have no defense other than more knuckle dragging remarks.

Ha! I called you on your shit. It was you who brought out the "POS" reference in the first place. The more you talk, the more you burry yourself and look silly.

 

[TobyTyler]

Having a certain skin color is not probably cause you retard. God you have no concept of the things you speak of.

Nope, nationality, or lack thereof in this case, certainly is though. "Probably" cause, LOL!

 

[optimist4720]

I suppose the one thing that cannot be denied though is that they are here illegally and are thus criminals and subject to arrest. We all are expected to obey the laws of the country we live in and these folks are breaking the law every day of their lives. I guess that is the one irrefutable fact that the liberals cannot get around. If the illegals can choose to break this law with impunity, why then can I not decide to rob banks with the same impunity?

Another myth debunked: Anyone who illegally enters the U.S. is a criminal.

Only very serious misbehavior is generally considered “criminal” in our legal system. Violations of less serious laws are usually “civil” matters and are tried in civil courts. People accused of crimes are tried in criminal courts and can be imprisoned. Federal immigration law says that unlawful presence in the country is a civil offense and is, therefore, not a crime. The punishment is deportation. However, some states — like Arizona — are trying to criminalize an immigrant’s mere presence. As the laws are currently written, illegal entry into the United States does not make one a "criminal".

 

[Breaker99]

The Nazis actually killed the Jews & put them into concentration camps. But it's not insulting to the Jews at all to make that comparison to checking one's citizenship status (which, by the way, Mexico has no problem doing right before they deport anyone who's illegal).

And by the way, the Nazis rounded up the Jews for doing absolutely nothing unlike illegal immigrants, who have broken American laws.

So we should treat people just like Mexico does? Our values and human rights goals should be parallel with Mexico?

I have never understood the argument that Mexico would do this to foreigners so we should treat anyone from Mexico in the same way. What kind of ideology is that? The whole point, is that America is supposed to be better. Thats why they want to come here. Just like about everyone of our forefathers came here for the same reason.

I am certainly not in favor illegally entering the country, and I want illegals to be sent home. But when people start stereotyping anyone with brown skin as a mexican or illegal something has gone seriously wrong. Its as if some people have convinced themselves that before white people arrived in North America there wasn't a single person in what is now the United States with brown skin and they are all invaders.

It takes a strong effort to suppress your intellect to come up with that kind of outlook.

 

[Breaker99]

Nope, nationality, or lack thereof in this case, certainly is though. "Probably" cause, LOL!

My typo doesn't take away your ignorant racist ramblings you little racist ****.

 

[TobyTyler]

My typo doesn't take away your ignorant racist ramblings you little racist ****.

Ha ha! The anger of a fool comes out when his argument is debunked by a better mind.

 

[Liberal Icon]

You are right. I don't. I think the fact that he is the only American, with all the great Americans of history, who has a day named for him is a joke. Its an embarrassment to the people who passed that legislation. He helped do a lot of good things for his people and he was a brave man but I cannot think of a thing he did to enrich my life. Do I admire MLK, yes, do I think he is a "great hero", no way.

Therefore which white American, do you call a hero who enriched your life? Do you think that having black people participate in our very society fruitfully as a result of the push by MLK is not enriching to your life? Gosh, I wish this thread is in the politics forum and not 49ers forum. I hate to argue with my fellow niners on politics.

 

[jakea31]

Bullshit. Slavery might have helped build the economies of New Orleans or Montgomery but the great American bastions of commerce and industry were built by educatated men and skilled craftsmen.

Where did those bastions of commerce and industry get their cotton? You are telling me that the American South, which provided over 60% of the world's cotton by 1860, had no impact on the textile factories in the North? Yes, the North developed a transportation system that connected the commercial farmers in the Old Northwest, but it is wrong to state that slavery had no impact on American factories, merchants, and bankers (who financed the plantation system).

 

[TobyTyler]

Therefore which white American, do you call a hero who enriched your life? Do you think that having black people participate in our very society fruitfully as a result of the push by MLK is not enriching to your life? Gosh, I wish this thread is in the politics forum and not 49ers forum. I hate to argue with my fellow niners on politics.

We've been through that ad nauseum in this thread. There are just too many to mention. You'll have to read the thread.