OT - France lays down the burqa hammer

[KillerVee]

Is it, though? Physically, perhaps the meaning behind it, sure. But the fact that she has that freedom is what's important. If she wore a burqa, she'd still be my friend.

No, she wouldn't. Because if she wore a burqa, she wouldn't be allowed to speak to men who weren't in her family.

Jeezy Creezy!

 

[BostonAJ]

I think this is how the Holocaust started. Next, all French Muslims will be invited to "an exclusive retreat".

 

[KillerVee]

I think this is how the Holocaust started. Next, all French Muslims will be invited to "an exclusive retreat".

Give me a fucking break!

 

[Darkstone42]

No, she wouldn't. Because if she wore a burqa, she wouldn't be allowed to speak to men who weren't in her family.

Jeezy Creezy!

Well, that depends on why she was wearing it. I think we're operating under different assumptions. You're assuming she's wearing it because she's being force to wear it. I'm assuming she's wearing it because she wants to. If it's the latter, she could talk to me.

The burqas themselves are not the issue is my point. If you want to cut down on the oppression of women, target the oppressors. All they've done by disallowing the wearing of burqas is given the already-abusive and oppressive men a little more motivation to beat these women. Heck, maybe they try to obey the law and their husbands kill them for it. Then the law's done the opposite of what it's intended to do.

Don't ban burqas, arrest these men on domestic violence charges. Neighbor accounts should be sufficient to get a warrant. I get the feeling these men aren't hiding what they're doing to the women.

 

[BostonAJ]

Give me a fucking break!

Just a joke. But I think the law is definitely France's way of saying "Muslims not welcome."

 

[KillerVee]

Well, that depends on why she was wearing it. I think we're operating under different assumptions. You're assuming she's wearing it because she's being force to wear it. I'm assuming she's wearing it because she wants to. If it's the latter, she could talk to me.

I think maybe you're not clear on what a burqa is and what their function is.

Burqa's are worn so that no man who is not related to the women can see any part of her. Muslim women who wear those are not allowed to interact with men. Not even visually. That's what the burqa is for.

So, to re-iterate, as a man you are not even allowed to SEE the woman underneath, let alone become her buddy.

 

[Darkstone42]

I think maybe you're not clear on what a burqa is and what their function is.

Burqa's are worn so that no man who is not related to the women can see any part of her. Muslim women who wear those are not allowed to interact with men. Not even visually. That's what the burqa is for.

So, to re-iterate, as a man you are not even allowed to SEE the woman underneath, let alone become her buddy.

I'm very clear as to its traditional function, but what I'm saying is that banning them doesn't do much to counteract the ideas behind that function. I honestly think it will compound the problem. And if a woman wants to wear something that resembles a burqa without those stigmas, she can't now. I just think they picked the wrong target. These women are oppressed so much already, and now they've got their husbands and the government both dictating to them what to do, and to make it worse, those assertions are opposite. The hell in which they live is going to get hotter now.

 

[KillerVee]

I'm very clear as to its traditional function, but what I'm saying is that banning them doesn't do much to counteract the ideas behind that function. I honestly think it will compound the problem. And if a woman wants to wear something that resembles a burqa without those stigmas, she can't now. I just think they picked the wrong target. These women are oppressed so much already, and now they've got their husbands and the government both dictating to them what to do, and to make it worse, those assertions are opposite. The hell in which they live is going to get hotter now.

Ok but that is not the conversation that you and I were originally having. Your original argument was "Gee golly I don't care if they wear them or not, we'll still be friends!"

And I countered that the above statement (summarized, of course) was not true.

 

[BostonAJ]

Burqa's are worn so that no man who is not related to the women can see any part of her. Muslim women who wear those are not allowed to interact with men. Not even visually. That's what the burqa is for.

They believe lust to be a weakness of the human condition. By removing lust they believe they can be set on a higher spiritual path. Catholic priests and nuns can never get laid. Many Buddhists are celibate. They have the right to their beliefs.

 

[KillerVee]

They believe lust to be a weakness of the human condition. By removing lust they believe they can be set on a higher spiritual path. Catholic priests and nuns can never get laid. Many Buddhists are celibate. They have the right to their beliefs.

Yeah but priests and nuns and buddhists can talk to whoever they want and can make eye contact and can smile at strangers on the street.

How can you even compare the belief that a woman is a man's property and you can shield her from ever talking to a man and people choosing on their own volition to be celibate!

 

[Darkstone42]

Ok but that is not the conversation that you and I were originally having. Your original argument was "Gee golly I don't care if they wear them or not, we'll still be friends!"

And I countered that the above statement (summarized, of course) was not true.

Oh, no, I'm still having the same conversation. I've separated the burqa and the oppression of women. To me, they're independent entities, and where one exists, the other does not have to be present. To borrow from probability and statistics, correlation does not imply causation.

My most recent statement, however, just eliminated the burqa altogether (rhetorically, at least) to represent the distinction I was making. Dogmatically, the burqa simply represents, as AJ said, a refusal to lust. The cultural implications unfortunately followed it, but while they are related, you can still have one without the other.

 

[BostonAJ]

How can you even compare the belief that a woman is a man's property and you can shield her from ever talking to a man and people choosing on their own volition to be celibate!

Not sure what your solution here is. Do you want to outlaw religion? The same kind of stuff is in the Bible, just most Christians choose to ignore it. Tattoos are also a big no-no. Comes right after the 'don't be gay' part. And some Buddhist monks will go for extended periods (years, I think) without speaking to a soul. Trying to reach nirvana or something. It's all kooky to me. But, you know, do what ya gotta do.

 

[KillerVee]

I said on the first page I didn't know what to do! It's a very tough issue. But people should be more clear on what it all actually means though. Cause there was a whole lot of "Let these women do whatever they want!" when in reality, the whole reason why they have to wear burqa's is because they can't do ANYTHING on their own.

I...I.... I wish we had a shoot yourself in the head smilie right now cause I would totally use it.

 

[dare2be]

My karma ran over your dogma.

 

[BostonAJ]

Cause there was a whole lot of "Let these women do whatever they want!" when in reality, the whole reason why they have to wear burqa's is because they can't do ANYTHING on their own.

You have a valid point. It's a tight fucking rope.

 

[Darkstone42]

I said on the first page I didn't know what to do! It's a very tough issue. But people should be more clear on what it all actually means though. Cause there was a whole lot of "Let these women do whatever they want!" when in reality, the whole reason why they have to wear burqa's is because they can't do ANYTHING on their own.

I...I.... I wish we had a shoot yourself in the head smilie right now cause I would totally use it.

I think we all support your assertion that these women shouldn't be forced into wearing these burqas, and that the violently oppressive situation in which they live is unacceptable. I think where we disagree is simply on the role of the burqa in the whole thing, which, in my opinion, is actually rather trivial. I suppose I kind of wasted my time in that debate, because I really was agreeing with you on everything that mattered about the subject. The hangup was the one thing that honestly doesn't matter at all, a stupid piece of cloth.

 

[KillerVee]

Ok then.

France is NIMBY then.

 

[SLY]

Just a joke. But I think the law is definitely France's way of saying "Muslims not welcome."

Well I hate to drop in and sound like Hitler, but I don't blame them. Muslims are really taking that country over. I don't blame France for trying to preserve some of their french culture and heritage by making them fit into their society and not just plant their feet and spread like wild fire.

 

[KillerVee]

Well I hate to drop in and sound like Hitler, but I don't blame them. Muslims are really taking that country over. I don't blame France for trying to preserve some of their french culture and heritage by making them fit into their society and not just plant their feet and spread like wild fire.

Shhh.. Just shhhhhh.

 

[SLY]

Shhh.. Just shhhhhh.