OT - France lays down the burqa hammer

[Curtrain]

For reals though?

What about all the CHILDREN who are raised to believe that it is their duty to become a multiple wife and that they don't have a freaking choice. The ones who are married to middle-age men in their teens and are never given the chance to decide if they want to go to school or get a job or move away or become a lesbian or whatever?

Those women are raised to believe that what they are doing is right and what they are doing is great. So in their mind, it's consensual. But in reality, they never had that choice. They were brainwashed into believing that was the right way.

Thats society for you. You can make the same argument for faith. If you grew up in a Christian family, would you being Christian really be your choice? All of us are brainwashed into believing one thing or another, but that alone does not mean what we believe is wrong or harmful. I am not making a judgement here either way.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

So, this issue is really hard for me. I'm not sure where I fall. On one hand, I believe burqa's sole purpose is to oppress women. And we all know I'm not down with that.

I also know that some women in that faith don't believe they are being oppressed. In my opinion, they're being brainwashed. After all, a lot of women also used to believe they shouldn't have jobs because women aren't as smart as men and a bunch of other bullshit like that.

BUT. I don't like the government telling people how to practice their faith. People should have that freedom. BUT when that faith is essentially anti-freedom for women....Jesus, how am I supposed to feel?

I don't know. I'm confused. I need some more time to think. I'm glad I'm not Muslim and living in France. I would hope if the law sticks that over time, younger Muslim women will get the idea that it's not ok to be stripped of their basic human rights and will evolve just like a lot of other cultures have. Maybe this ban is the first step towards it. I don't knoooooooow.

It does raise an ugly questions about Islam, doesn't it? Questions that are not happy to think about.

 

[Comeds]

For reals though?

What about all the CHILDREN who are raised to believe that it is their duty to become a multiple wife and that they don't have a freaking choice. The ones who are married to middle-age men in their teens and are never given the chance to decide if they want to go to school or get a job or move away or become a lesbian or whatever?

Those women are raised to believe that what they are doing is right and what they are doing is great. So in their mind, it's consensual. But in reality, they never had that choice. They were brainwashed into believing that was the right way.

What one person calls brainwashing another may call faith.

I do not think that some of those examples would be considered consensual. And I am certainly not for giving away the young girls to older community members for marriage, nor do I think the children should be forced into a certain type of life.

I will also say I do not know enough or care enough about the issues of polygamy to really debate it.
My thoughts were more focused on consenting adults and I do not really care if Bob down the street has two wives or even if Sue up the road has two husbands.

 

[johnnytata]

i think they should also seriously consider a ban on snoopy underwear.

 

[Comeds]

I think we should ban people walking around with ashes on their head on ash Wednesday.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

i think they should also seriously consider a ban on snoopy underwear.

People of every faith can get behind this one.

 

[dash]

I just can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's cultures...and the Dutch...

 

[SLY]

For reals though?

What about all the CHILDREN who are raised to believe that it is their duty to become a multiple wife and that they don't have a freaking choice. The ones who are married to middle-age men in their teens and are never given the chance to decide if they want to go to school or get a job or move away or become a lesbian or whatever?

Those women are raised to believe that what they are doing is right and what they are doing is great. So in their mind, it's consensual. But in reality, they never had that choice. They were brainwashed into believing that was the right way.

WTF? lol...

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I just can't stand people who are intolerant of other people's cultures...and the Dutch...

^ This. Smug bastards.

 

[Darkstone42]

While I don't necessarily agree with the culture that supports burqas and the like, it is not my place, nor certainly any government's, to tell them how to practice their faith. For some of these people, it might be like telling them not to practice it at all.

And what if this law proves more oppressive to the women than the burqa itself? These women may only feel comfortable leaving the house if they've covered their faces. Taking away their veils may also take away their freedom to leave the house.

 

[dare2be]

brainwashing vs. faith...consentual or oppressive...human rights vs. intolerance...the only way to avoid the confusion and hypocracy these issues present is to not think too much about it...it's the only way religion, and more specifically, religious rituals, can survive.

 

[KillerVee]

..it's the only way religion, and more specifically, religious rituals, can survive.

Some religious rituals shouldn't survive. Sorry.

 

[SLY]

What you people are not getting is that this isn't the government telling them how to practice their faith. People can "practice" a faith any way they choose, but this is a physical attribute to the religion that shouldn't be acceptable in public. If someone sacrifices animals to pay homage to their God in their own privacy, thats one thing, if they are sacrificing animals in the middle of Main Street, there is going to be a problem.

If someone walked into a bank with a burqa on, I would have my eyes on them at all times, that isn't how we should be living, people's faces should always be exposed.

 

[dare2be]

Some religious rituals shouldn't survive. Sorry.

That was my point..."the more you think about it, the more religious rituals become absurd"

I used to walk around with ash on my forehead on Ash Wednesday until I realized how stupid I looked (relatively speaking, of course)

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

, people's faces should always be exposed.

Charlie Sheen being the exception that proves the rule.

 

[KillerVee]

What you people are not getting is that this isn't the government telling them how to practice their faith.

What do you mean 'you people?!'

 

[Darkstone42]

What you people are not getting is that this isn't the government telling them how to practice their faith. People can "practice" a faith any way they choose, but this is a physical attribute to the religion that shouldn't be acceptable in public. If someone sacrifices animals to pay homage to their God in their own privacy, thats one thing, if they are sacrificing animals in the middle of Main Street, there is going to be a problem.

If someone walked into a bank with a burqa on, I would have my eyes on them at all times, that isn't how we should be living, people's faces should always be exposed.

Even people with hideous deformities on their faces of which they are terribly ashamed? Burn victims who don't want everyone to see their scars? Really cold people who just want to cover up their faces? People with aggressive seasonal allergies or other medical conditions that may require them to wear a mask? Kids Trick-or-Treating on Halloween?

In my opinion, the fear is utterly unfounded. Those masks make those people no more or no less harmful. And no more of them are dangerous than any other group.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

What do you mean 'you people?!'

 

[dare2be]

Charlie Sheen being the exception that proves the rule.

I'd like to expose his face to my fist.

 

[SLY]

What do you mean 'you people?!'

You people who feel that this is wrong...