Note to Pirates brass

[thecrow124]

Sign Neil Huntington to an extention NOW. The Cubs fired Jim Hendry and are looking for a new GM. In the presser with the Cubs owner he basically said he was looking for Neil Huntington. Do not let him get through the season without locking him up, and by the way, make it for more than 1 year, sign him for at least 5 because we, the fans, believe in what he is doing.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

Sign Neil Huntington to an extention NOW. The Cubs fired Jim Hendry and are looking for a new GM. In the presser with the Cubs owner he basically said he was looking for Neil Huntington. Do not let him get through the season without locking him up, and by the way, make it for more than 1 year, sign him for at least 5 because we, the fans, believe in what he is doing.

I agree, whole heartedly Crow. The Pirates need to get Huntington locked up to a multi yr extension & they need to do it NOW!

Also, here's an idea! How about actually announcing the extension to the fans this time. LOL!

 

[Illinest]

Have you guys actually looked at the list of terrible free agents he has signed?

I don't understand how you can like Neil Huntington when his best 'successes' are a handful of relief pitchers and maybe Garrett Jones.

Remember when he traded for Akinori Iwamura right before he was about to be cut? Remember how bad Iwamura sucked? Remember all those middle infielders he paid to suck? Remember Hinske, Overbay, Diaz, Crosby, etc...

So far he's made a ton of trades of which about half seem to be wins and the other half are losses. He (or Coonely) has also drafted a bunch of players that any idiot with a subscription to BA and BP could have drafted, and accomplished the ultra difficult task of offering more and more money until the player says yes.

There are some victories, but even DL had a few. Blind squirrel and all that.
Well that's not entirely fair. Neil isn't blind, he's just not exceptional in any way. I'd be willing to concede if you'll just call a spade a spade.
In this case - completely average.

I think the Pirates need to spend money on a brilliant GM, not an average one. I'm glad he's not DL at least, but that's not saying much.

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

Have you guys actually looked at the list of terrible free agents he has signed?

I don't understand how you can like Neil Huntington when his best 'successes' are a handful of relief pitchers and maybe Garrett Jones.

Remember when he traded for Akinori Iwamura right before he was about to be cut? Remember how bad Iwamura sucked? Remember all those middle infielders he paid to suck? Remember Hinske, Overbay, Diaz, Crosby, etc...

So far he's made a ton of trades of which about half seem to be wins and the other half are losses. He (or Coonely) has also drafted a bunch of players that any idiot with a subscription to BA and BP could have drafted, and accomplished the ultra difficult task of offering more and more money until the player says yes.

There are some victories, but even DL had a few. Blind squirrel and all that.
Well that's not entirely fair. Neil isn't blind, he's just not exceptional in any way. I'd be willing to concede if you'll just call a spade a spade.
In this case - completely average.

I think the Pirates need to spend money on a brilliant GM, not an average one. I'm glad he's not DL at least, but that's not saying much.

Some trades work out, some trades do not. I think that we can all agree that that is the case for any GM.

Neal has had some good trades & some stinkers, to be sure.

The one point that I will take issue with you on is, the Draft picks.

That any idiot with a subscription to a baseball magazine could make those picks?

If that were true, why didn't the Pirates previous GM's make those, No Brainer Picks?

Also, it is one thing to make the picks. It is quite another to get them to sign up. Neal Huntington & this management team has done both.

As a result, we are now in better shape in our Minor League System, then the Pirates have been in decades.

Look, Neal Huntington is not perfect. No GM is.

However, I think that he has done much more good work, than bad & he has put the Pirates in a better position to compete in the future, then they have been in a long time.

For me, I think that should earn him a multi yr extension & a chance to see his work through.

 

[element1286]

I agree, sign him up asap!

 

[magnumo]

I'm with Illinest on this one.

It's true that no GM makes all the right moves. However, a GM for a small market team like the Pirates needs to make a preponderance of good moves, with only a few bad ones. There just isn't much room for error. In my view, Huntington has made at least as many bad moves as good ones. That ain't good enough.

The other thing which bothers me is that I expected to see some improvement at the major league level by the third year of Huntington's regime. Yes, I know that Littlefield left things in deplorable shape..... but I did not expect to see steady deterioriation at the major league level to a historically bad season last year. The Pirates good first half this year had me thinking..... well, it's a year later than expected, but maybe that's OK. However, since the team reached its high point (51-44 after the game of July 19), the Pirates have gone 8-21 (.276), and have looked very much like last year's hostorically bad team. At this point, I expect the Pirates to fall into fifth place before year-end (thank heaven for the hapless Astros)..... and there seems to be little help on the horizon. That ain't good enough either.

I'd be willing to give Huntington one more year at most, and he'd be on a short leash. Unfortunately, that kind of situation tends to put a GM in survival mode, which is not good for the club. (In fact, I've been wondering whether Huntington has gone into survival mode already.)

 

[thecrow124]

I'm with Illinest on this one.

It's true that no GM makes all the right moves. However, a GM for a small market team like the Pirates needs to make a preponderance of good moves, with only a few bad ones. There just isn't much room for error. In my view, Huntington has made at least as many bad moves as good ones. That ain't good enough.

The other thing which bothers me is that I expected to see some improvement at the major league level by the third year of Huntington's regime. Yes, I know that Littlefield left things in deplorable shape..... but I did not expect to see steady deterioriation at the major league level to a historically bad season last year. The Pirates good first half this year had me thinking..... well, it's a year later than expected, but maybe that's OK. However, since the team reached its high point (51-44 after the game of July 19), the Pirates have gone 8-21 (.276), and have looked very much like last year's hostorically bad team. At this point, I expect the Pirates to fall into fifth place before year-end (thank heaven for the hapless Astros)..... and there seems to be little help on the horizon. That ain't good enough either.

I'd be willing to give Huntington one more year at most, and he'd be on a short leash. Unfortunately, that kind of situation tends to put a GM in survival mode, which is not good for the club. (In fact, I've been wondering whether Huntington has gone into survival mode already.)

Mags I think you ask the impossible. No GM makes all the right moves, and asking your GM to do that is just asking for failure. IMO NH has made a lot of good trades and a couple of bad trades. His FA signings leave a lot to be desired but on the burst he has had, I don't think anyone could do any better.

 

[magnumo]

Reply to thecrow124

I don't expect all of Huntington's moves to be right moves

I have specifically stated that no GM makes all the right moves. What I DO expect (and what's necessary for success of a small market team) is for a GM to make a majority of right moves with a minimum of outright mistakes. In my view, Huntington looks good compared to Littlefield, but that's about it.

Major Trades: The Bay trades was awful; the Gorzelanny/Grabow trade was awful; the Freddy Sanchez trade produced nothing. The trade for Iwamura was awful. The Jack Wilson trade produced less than Huntington expected. (He was on record as stating that Clement was the most coveted acquisition in that one.) The Nady trade was excellent; the Dotel trade was excellent; and the Morgan/Burnett trade was a positive. The McLouth trade is a positive at this point. I was OK with the acquisition of Lee, only because I thought he'd be an improvement over Overbay (another Huntington mistake). I didn't think much of the acquisition of Ludwick. The Lee and Ludwick deals smelled too much like desperation moves, acquiring mediocre, over-the-hill hitters. Overall, imo, Huntington's trade performance has been no better than 50-50..... just not good enough.

Free Agents: Garrett Jones had a good half season when first signed and has been mediocre since. Correia had a good first half..... and has been bad since. As Illinest has pointed out, there is a long list of bad free agent signings, most recently Overbay, Diaz, and Scott Olsen..... and Correia looks no better than 50-50 himself. Huntington has done well at picking up FA's for the bullpen. Overall, his performance is less than 50-50 on FA's..... just not good enough.

Draft: I have long agreed that Huntington's drafts (4 of them now) appear to be better than Littlefield's. Unfortunately, both Alvarez and Tony Sanchez have been disappointing, and as a whole, Huntington's draftees have performed below expectations..... not good enough yet. I am impatient.

I propose that we agree to disagree.

 

[element1286]

I have specifically stated that no GM makes all the right moves. What I DO expect (and what's necessary for success of a small market team) is for a GM to make a majority of right moves with a minimum of outright mistakes. In my view, Huntington looks good compared to Littlefield, but that's about it.

Andrew Friedman is probably the only guy who even comes close to meeting these expectations.

Do you believe they can't win with NH as the GM, Mags?

 

[thedddd]

I am not 100% they could win with NH as the GM but I doubt they would do much better with any other GM.

His strong point is truly the draft and using the money given to him to aggressively build a farm system. Maybe he has spent too much time on that since it was so barren and not enough time scouting major league talent? Not sure.

I think they should resign him now if for at least a year and maybe focus more on strengthening their major league scouting. I think that has been a weak point of his so far which can be easier to fix versus scouting talent for drafts since major league players are more visible to all of us.

 

[magnumo]

Andrew Friedman is probably the only guy who even comes close to meeting these expectations.

Do you believe they can't win with NH as the GM, Mags?

That's exactly what I believe, element.

I admit that I haven't done any kind of exhaustive study on GM's. On the other hand, I've witnessed many a turn-around over the years..... instances where a new GM came in and made significant improvements in a chronically bad team, and those improvements became visible at the major league level within 3 years (or less).

Due to Huntington's MANY missteps, that didn't happen. To be fair, had the Pirates sustained their good play from the first half of Huntington's 4th year, that would have convinced me that I was too impatient, and I would have supported an extension right now. But this last month has killed my support. As bad as the team has looked over the past month, with little significant help on the horizon, and with so many of Huntington's draftees performing below expectations..... I'm convinced that the first half was a fluke, a statistical aberration, and I'm ready for a change.

I recognize that, thanks to Littlefield, the situation Huntington found himself in was worse than the typical situation where a chronically bad team hires a new GM. I also realize that Huntington is hindered by less money to work with than most GM's. But those are the very reasons why he needs to perform better than he has.

Another reason for my impatience is my age. I'd like to see the Pirates become competitive again before I get too old to enjoy it. :wacko:

 

[element1286]

Mags, say the Pirates go 22-15 over the rest of the season, and finish .500, would you support an extension then?

 

[Burgh Sports Rule]

That's exactly what I believe, element.

I admit that I haven't done any kind of exhaustive study on GM's. On the other hand, I've witnessed many a turn-around over the years..... instances where a new GM came in and made significant improvements in a chronically bad team, and those improvements became visible at the major league level within 3 years (or less).

Due to Huntington's MANY missteps, that didn't happen. To be fair, had the Pirates sustained their good play from the first half of Huntington's 4th year, that would have convinced me that I was too impatient, and I would have supported an extension right now. But this last month has killed my support. As bad as the team has looked over the past month, with little significant help on the horizon, and with so many of Huntington's draftees performing below expectations..... I'm convinced that the first half was a fluke, a statistical aberration, and I'm ready for a change.

I recognize that, thanks to Littlefield, the situation Huntington found himself in was worse than the typical situation where a chronically bad team hires a new GM. I also realize that Huntington is hindered by less money to work with than most GM's. But those are the very reasons why he needs to perform better than he has.

Another reason for my impatience is my age. I'd like to see the Pirates become competitive again before I get too old to enjoy it. :wacko:

I will have to agree to disagree with you on this point Mags.

I extend Huntington, just on Draft performance alone at this point.
I like what he has done, in that area, that much.

The Pirates are still a team where FA's at this point still don't want to come to. Consequently, we still have to over pay for the one's we do get & Hope for lightning in a bottle on some of them. It is still Extremely dificult for the Pirates to attract FA's. Any FA's.

Hopefully, as more of the Huntington Draft Picks make it through the system & make it to Pittsburgh & we start playing better as a team, then it should become easier for the Bucs to supplement the roster with a Quality FA signing or 2.

Until then, I think we have to give Huntington more time to keep building. Much of the Pirates work right now, is still going to have to be done via trade, with FA signings sprinkled in.

Again, Yes, Huntington will have to come out a winner in a few more of these trades.

However, we are headed in the right direction, I think?

Based on his performance in the Draft the last 4 yrs... Not only with the picks but getting the picks signed.

I would give him the Multi yr extension.

I like what he's done.

 

[Illinest]

I don't think his draft performances are all that great.
He drafted second. Took Alvarez. Duh. Could've had anyone in that draft including Posey, Heyward. The majority of the value of that draft was tied up in Alvarez.
Then he drafted Sanchez. Ouch. It was an overdraft at the time and now I think we're all seriously worried. He made up for it by overslotting a bunch of high school arms. This draft will probably work out pretty well in the end but not necessarily because he drafted Sanchez. I agree with his strategy of overslotting a bunch of high school pitchers, not so much the stinginess in the first round.
Then he drafted Taillon, which is not an entirely unreasonable pick. Most of the excitement from that draft was due to also signing Allie, but Allie is a big risk. If Taillon underperforms then that draft could turn out to be weak. I was hoping for Machado by the way. I can't say I fault him for taking Taillon but I really don't like high school pitchers that high in the draft unless there's no one else worth looking at.
The most recent draft has the potential to be his best.

All the same it's too easy to lose track of the fact that he's been drafting from a very advantageous position.

Again - I'm not saying he's terrible. Maybe a 2 year extension at most. By that time McC will be signed long term or in arbitration. By that time it will be clear whether Alvarez and Sanchez are busts. By that time we'll have a better picture of the progress of the overslot high school arms.
It will be an easier judgement then. He will have to get smarter about free agent acquisitions and he'll need to continue to demonstrate minimum competence in the draft of course, but the final analysis of these decisions will determine if he's better than 'at least he's not DL'

 

[magnumo]

Yes

Mags, say the Pirates go 22-15 over the rest of the season, and finish .500, would you support an extension then?

Yes..... an 81-81 season would represent an undeniably significant improvement over 2010, AND would restore my confidence that the team is on the right track. However, my current perception is that the probability of this team going 22-15 over the rest of the season is vanishingly small. (And whatever the team's final record, I expect a regression in 2012.)

An obvious follow-up question would be, "What does the Pirates' final W-L record need to be..... how much improvement over 2010 would it take, for me to change my position on the retention of NH?" That's a fair question, but I don't know that I can answer it objectively. The best I can do at this point is to say that it depends on how the team looks..... and how the future looks. Do the Pirates look like a chronic loser who had a fluke first half..... where all the pitchers overperformed and the team experienced a confluence of statistical anomaly and good luck? Or do they look like an improved team with a lot of talent and a bright future? That's a much more subjective answer than I would prefer, but it's the best I can do right now.

I may be wrong about Huntington. I HOPE I'm wrong about Huntington. Time will tell.

 

[element1286]

Yes..... an 81-81 season would represent an undeniably significant improvement over 2010, AND would restore my confidence that the team is on the right track. However, my current perception is that the probability of this team going 22-15 over the rest of the season is vanishingly small. (And whatever the team's final record, I expect a regression in 2012.)

An obvious follow-up question would be, "What does the Pirates' final W-L record need to be..... how much improvement over 2010 would it take, for me to change my position on the retention of NH?" That's a fair question, but I don't know that I can answer it objectively. The best I can do at this point is to say that it depends on how the team looks..... and how the future looks. Do the Pirates look like a chronic loser who had a fluke first half..... where all the pitchers overperformed and the team experienced a confluence of statistical anomaly and good luck? Or do they look like an improved team with a lot of talent and a bright future? That's a much more subjective answer than I would prefer, but it's the best I can do right now.

I may be wrong about Huntington. I HOPE I'm wrong about Huntington. Time will tell.

Fair enough, Mags. I feel they have taken a few steps forward, but there is still a lot of work to go. We all want to know the "true talent level" of the team now, and in the near future, which is a complex question that would have to be looked at on a player to player basis, sounds like a project for the offseason.

 

[thedddd]

Again - I'm not saying he's terrible. Maybe a 2 year extension at most. By that time McC will be signed long term or in arbitration. By that time it will be clear whether Alvarez and Sanchez are busts. By that time we'll have a better picture of the progress of the overslot high school arms.
It will be an easier judgement then. He will have to get smarter about free agent acquisitions and he'll need to continue to demonstrate minimum competence in the draft of course, but the final analysis of these decisions will determine if he's better than 'at least he's not DL'

I agree with all of this and really wasn't thinking about draft position due to after the first round it doesn't matter as much with all the compensatory picks jammed in there.

I would add another measure will be how well he drafts in the first round not being in the top 10. Hopefully next draft.