Non-Roster Invitees

[ramburgh]

would be nice to have Inge on the bench for some potential pop and possibly some veteran leadership.

bench:
Inge, McKenry, Sanchez, Harrison
+ one of Tabata/Presley/Sands/Robinson/Ford/Pie or is a defensive ss replacement needed?

 

[element1286]

would be nice to have Inge on the bench for some potential pop and possibly some veteran leadership.

bench:
Inge, McKenry, Sanchez, Harrison
+ one of Tabata/Presley/Sands/Robinson/Ford/Pie or is a defensive ss replacement needed?

The Pirate's FO and coaching staff seems to believe Harrison is a capable backup SS, I have my doubts. But figuring out between Sands/Tabata/Sanchez/Presley is a mess.

 

[sychmd]

Lineup:
1. Marte
2. Walker
3. McCutch
4. Alvarez
5. Jones/Sanchez
6. Martin
7. Snider/Tabata
8. Barmes
Bench: McKenry(RH C), Sanchez(RH 1B), Harrison(RH IF), Tabata(RH RF), Inge(RH 3B)
we might need a lefty off the bench, but not sure if Sands is LH. only presley an option.
too bad sands cant play 3B, as would rather see the younger sands over Inge, and possibly even over Sanchez.
Can Mercer or D'Arnaud ever hit enough to be a significant improvement over barmes.

 

[element1286]

I think Mercer could be as effective as Barmes, slightly more bat, slightly less glove. Not sold on d'Arnaud's ability to field or hit.

 

[thedddd]

I didn't realize either than Inge had good numbers playing 3B. I am fine with him on the bench.
I really don't see any value in d'Arnaud but would like to see Mercer get a longer look. If Inge is around give Mercer the time and then maybe we won't have to see Harrison on the team.

 

[magnumo]

The primary thought which comes to me from reading the discussion is.....

Hurdle has a LOT of influence on what goes on with the Pirates' roster:

- Hurdle wants Barmes at SS regardless of his offense. (Hurdle seems to have little value for Mercer.) Thus, there has been zero indication that NH is seeking to acquire an upgrade at starting SS.

- Hurdle wants veterans for the bench, which gives an edge to guys like Inge and Hawpe.

- Historically, the Pirates have seemed to want at least two guys on the bench with some capability to back up SS..... and Hurdle seems to agree with that concept. I have NEVER understood that, since I believe another bat on the bench would provide much more value than an Anderson Hernandez or Ivan DeJesus type player..... and in case of injury, another SS is only a phone call away at Indy. Meanwhile, Hurdle seems to like Harrison (who can at least stand out there at SS without looking too bad on D)..... but it will be a surprise if Harrison is kept as the only middle infield backup.

It appears that construction of the bench will be one of the more interesting stories to watch unfold this spring.

In a side note, it was reported today that both Jonathan Sanchez and Brad Hawpe do indeed have out clauses in their NRI contracts. Sanchez can request release if not added to the 25-man roster by March 24, while Hawpe's date is March 26. I'd kinda like to see Sanchez make the team..... based on his potential to return to form as either starter depth or bullpen lefty. On the other hand, Hawpe can only make the team at the expense of a higher-potential younger player. I'm NOT rooting for Hawpe. The out clauses and some other contract notes are described in this article:

Karstens' just one of many creative contracts | pirates.com: News

 

[sychmd]

of our 5 bench players
C = McKenry
OF = Tabata or Presley (assuming Snider starts and Jones starts at 1B)
Middle IF = Harrison or Mercer
Corner IF = Candidates: Hawpe, Inge, G Sanchez, Sands.
- is it (Sands or Sanchez at 1B) + (Inge or Hawpe at 3B)
- or is it one of these who can play both positions (and 3rd C) so we can add another utility player.

does sands have options as it would be a shame to lose him from the hanny trade as melancon by himself isnt enough for hanny.

 

[Darkstone42]

How our bench plays out will be interesting. McKenry seems to be the only real lock, but Sanchez might be close to one since he has a couple years of arbitration left, which means we can keep him around at a conceivably reasonable price for a little while.

At the same time, Sands almost has to make the roster in order to validate the Hanrahan trade. He can play outfield, right? He and Jones could both be outfield options, and if they're both out there (first of all, God help us if we come across a situation where we have to field that kind of defense), Sanchez can play first.

Then we need a guy who can play middle infield. I think Mercer is the best option here, but Harrison is also an option since he can play third base.

Now the last position comes down to Inge, Tabata, and Presley. I think Tabata has the best upside, but we already have five guys who can play in the outfield. We don't really have a guy who can backup third base if Mercer beats out Harrison, so it would almost have to be Tabata and Harrison or Mercer and Inge.

In any case, I don't think our bench is very good.

 

[thedddd]

Here is the list of Pirates out of options:
Jeanmar Gomez, Chris Leroux, James McDonald, Mark Melancon, Charlie Morton, Garrett Jones, Travis Snider, Jose Tabata

With that said I bet Tabata makes the team for that reason alone.

As for Harrison vs Mercer I would rather have Mercer. Mercer seems better at SS and I just don't see much positive with Harrison. I am probably missing something but if I can be shown I will change my mind, like Inge (didn't realize he was good defensively at 3B).

 

[thedddd]

They just added Jose Contreras. Another to throw against the wall and hope he sticks in the Pen.

 

[thecrow124]

The primary thought which comes to me from reading the discussion is.....

Hurdle has a LOT of influence on what goes on with the Pirates' roster:

- Hurdle wants Barmes at SS regardless of his offense. (Hurdle seems to have little value for Mercer.) Thus, there has been zero indication that NH is seeking to acquire an upgrade at starting SS.

- Hurdle wants veterans for the bench, which gives an edge to guys like Inge and Hawpe.

- Historically, the Pirates have seemed to want at least two guys on the bench with some capability to back up SS..... and Hurdle seems to agree with that concept. I have NEVER understood that, since I believe another bat on the bench would provide much more value than an Anderson Hernandez or Ivan DeJesus type player..... and in case of injury, another SS is only a phone call away at Indy. Meanwhile, Hurdle seems to like Harrison (who can at least stand out there at SS without looking too bad on D)..... but it will be a surprise if Harrison is kept as the only middle infield backup.

It appears that construction of the bench will be one of the more interesting stories to watch unfold this spring.

In a side note, it was reported today that both Jonathan Sanchez and Brad Hawpe do indeed have out clauses in their NRI contracts. Sanchez can request release if not added to the 25-man roster by March 24, while Hawpe's date is March 26. I'd kinda like to see Sanchez make the team..... based on his potential to return to form as either starter depth or bullpen lefty. On the other hand, Hawpe can only make the team at the expense of a higher-potential younger player. I'm NOT rooting for Hawpe. The out clauses and some other contract notes are described in this article:

Karstens' just one of many creative contracts | pirates.com: News

To validate your suspicions I read a tweet yesterday where it said Hurdle's job for 2014 was more secure than Huntington's. I guess than owner has kind of a man crush on him.

 

[element1286]

Throw Jose Contreras into the mix now.

 

[magnumo]

This Contreras signing presents some interesting questions:

- His TJ surgery in late June last year followed a previous serious elbow surgery by only 10 months. Did he try to come back too soon?

- After those two serious elbow surgeries, is he likely to have anything left?

- Reports indicate that Contreras is in camp to continue his rehab and seem to indicate that he's not a serious candidate for the bullpen to start the season. So..... when will he be ready? Does his contract include an "out" clause? If so, what's the date?

- If Contreras DOES eventually make the team, who will come off the 40-man and 25-man rosters to provide a spot for him?

Seems that the media should be asking at least some of these questions, but nothing seems to have emerged so far. One final question I'd like to see someone in the media ask Huntington:

- Why does a regime which has been focusing on young pitching for your entire 5-1/2 years have a need to sign a 41-year-old relief pitcher coming off serious elbow surgery?

Hey, I agree that a minor league contract is low risk and no big deal..... and I hope Contreras recovers completely and contributes great performance from the Pirates' bullpen. (Nevertheless, I'd still like to hear some answers, especially to that last question.)

 

[element1286]

Mags,

I believe guys like Contreras who are hurt, but are signed on a minor league deal have an out clause, but it will be later in the season, say for example July 1st (of course this depends on the injury).

This is how the Pirates landed Jason Grilli, he missed the entire 2010 season with a knee injury, and signed with the Phillies on a minor league deal in 2011. I believe he was to be promoted by July 31st, or become a free agent. The Phillies released him July 20th and the Pirates signed him July 21st.

My only worry is that if Contreras is healthy at some point this will prevent the Pirates from promoting Byran Morris, Vic Black, or Justin Wilson to the majors.

 

[magnumo]

I believe guys like Contreras who are hurt, but are signed on a minor league deal have an out clause, but it will be later in the season, say for example July 1st (of course this depends on the injury).

I suspect you're right about that, element, but I'd like to see something spedific reported on the contract. The stuff I've read seems to indicate that the Pirates are urging Contreras to take his time with his rehab..... but an out clause date would give us some indication of the expectations of both the team and the player.

My only worry is that if Contreras is healthy at some point this will prevent the Pirates from promoting Byran Morris, Vic Black, or Justin Wilson to the majors.

Agreed. That also is my biggest concern.

 

[sychmd]

This Contreras signing presents some interesting questions:

- Why does a regime which has been focusing on young pitching for your entire 5-1/2 years have a need to sign a 41-year-old relief pitcher coming off serious elbow surgery?

i agree, this is the big issue.
we should have some people available on the pitching side to walk in and do contreras like work for us and be a way better investment than jose.

so my 2 thoughts as to why are:
1. neil sees we will be a contender and might need a vet in aug/sep in the leverage situations because of pressure or an injury, and doesnt trust an untested stud in our system to get us to the playoffs.
2. neil sees us making a deal at the deadline and moving some of our younger BP arms to get a stick. so again, being in contention and having some holes in the BP, he has contreras as a plan B for the pen.
3. jose comes back july 1, is hot and juiced and living on house money till he blows his arm out for strike 3 and neil deals him in a package at the deadline as contending teams will desire a tested vet in the pen down the wire.

to me, this is why the "take your time" " rehab at your own pace" mentality works so he is raring to go around that time when his value can be leveraged the most and conserve the few pitches he will have available this year coming off a couple surgeries. living in philly, when he was on, wow, he was smoking. when he lost some speed and movement, he was batting practice fodder.

 

[thecrow124]

Mags,

I believe guys like Contreras who are hurt, but are signed on a minor league deal have an out clause, but it will be later in the season, say for example July 1st (of course this depends on the injury).

This is how the Pirates landed Jason Grilli, he missed the entire 2010 season with a knee injury, and signed with the Phillies on a minor league deal in 2011. I believe he was to be promoted by July 31st, or become a free agent. The Phillies released him July 20th and the Pirates signed him July 21st.

My only worry is that if Contreras is healthy at some point this will prevent the Pirates from promoting Byran Morris, Vic Black, or Justin Wilson to the majors.

I think Morris is out of options so he will break camp with the major league team regardless. Black isn't as close to ready as it may seem IMO. Still has a lot of trouble throwing strikes. Wilson should be in the minor leagues as a starter until he is needed in that role at the major league level. Contreras should have no impact in any of these three.

My belief is that he was brought in to teach Gerrit Cole how to handle the emotions he seems to have trouble with, the over-excitement.

 

[thedddd]

Here is a good article on the players with/without options:
The Pirates & Minor League Options | A Pittsburgh Pirates Blog

Morris will be on the opening day roster and so might Leroux? Contreras will be gone one way or another come his out clause in July.

The righties most likely in the bullpen are Morris, Leroux, Hughes, Melancon and Grilli with Karstens maybe starting. I don't see any need/room for him at all ever on the Pirates (baring late season injury) and I truly hope the only option he ever plays is like Mags stated it will be to help this team to a winning season with hopes for a post season.

 

[element1286]

Here is a good article on the players with/without options:
The Pirates & Minor League Options | A Pittsburgh Pirates Blog

Morris will be on the opening day roster and so might Leroux? Contreras will be gone one way or another come his out clause in July.

The righties most likely in the bullpen are Morris, Leroux, Hughes, Melancon and Grilli with Karstens maybe starting. I don't see any need/room for him at all ever on the Pirates (baring late season injury) and I truly hope the only option he ever plays is like Mags stated it will be to help this team to a winning season with hopes for a post season.

Thanks for the link, so other than Leroux and Morris, the option situation is better than I expected, especially with the outfielders.

 

[Etrius24]

Maybe they just want the chance of a veteran presence with Contreras... It will take some time for him to be ready... and maybe by that time the Bucs will need some help in the bullpen...

There are still a lot of ??? in this bullpen.. We all hope for the best sure! But after trading Hanrahan, nothing is certain! Contreras maybe a month after the start of the season can come along and give them some kind of stability... I am not sure if he has anything left or not... I guess he will at some point in the spring start tossing on a mound and we might get a report on velocity at that time ?