Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[dtgold88]

How am I not being objective when it comes to LeBron?

Did he have a virtual cakewalk TO the Finals while playing in the EC? Yes, he did.
Did he go 4-6 in the Finals DESPITE having multiple HOF level teammates around him in Miami/Cleveland/LA? Yes, he did.
Did he lose to LOWER seeds 4 times? Yes, he did.
Did he fail to make the Playoffs 4 times? Yes, he did.
Does he have several glaring flaws/weaknesses in his game? Yes, he does.
Does he have multiple terrible "individual" performances in Playoffs/Finals series losses? Yes, he does.
Does he have as many or more Awards/Accolades/Championships than Jordan? No, he doesn't (despite playing many more years).
Does he have as many or more legendary/iconic/clutch moments than Jordan? No, he doesn't (despite playing in 113 more Playoff games).
Did he transform the way the game is played like Jordan? No, he didn't.
Did he turn the sport into a global phenomenon like Jordan? No, he didn't.
Does anyone really "Wanna Be Like LeBron" (over Mike)? No, they don't.

So where exactly is this "strong case" for LeBron over Jordan unless, as noted, we only count "volume" stats and ignore everything else?

I will answer all your questions as they don't scare me

no
no (see my question)
not sure but if you say so...though you do lie a lot
yes
no
no
no idea
yes
maybe
no
no idea

How about a couple for you......
1) Who were the multiple (or even 1) in the 2007 Finals? how about 2015 after Kyrie exited end of game1?
2) How many playoff series did MJ win without Pippen to hold his hand?

I know how much Qs scare you so let's not overwhelm you and just start with those (I answered all your Qs)

 

[dtgold88]

The ONLY Finals opponents LeBron faced who you could say were "substantially better" than the Bulls' Finals opponents were the Durant/Curry Warriors... and the truth is, had James not been playing in the EC all those years (when it was arguably the weakest it's ever been) he would never have even made the Finals so many times.

Furthermore, when Jordan was facing the Celtics / Pistons in the EC (teams that were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS) he didn't have anywhere near the caliber of talent around him that LeBron had when he was facing the Spurs/Warriors in the Finals.

This year the Lakers were the #3 seed and LeBron had a Top 3-5 player (and a #3 guy putting up prime Scottie Pippen numbers) around him, yet LA got embarrassed by a lower seed that just lost to the Curry-less Warriors. That is absolutely a stain on James' resume.

LOL... the level of excuse-making for LeBron is off the charts.

SMH.

The Spurs who won other Finals/titles were not better than Portland, Seattle, Phoenix or Utah who never won other titles?

 

[dtgold88]

Based on what, exactly? You can't just go around making blanket statements without backing it up. Well you can I suppose, but you'll have no credibility.

how about they won titles while those Utah, seattle, Portland or Phoenix teams never did?

That comment about making up statements from you is next level.

 

[logic]

The wow is you cannot see how incredibly one sided your arguments are. Can you explain why Lebron could never even win a playoff series without hand held by Pippen? Lebron went to Finals with Mo Williams as his #2.

I believe that Pippen took the Bulls further in the playoffs without Jordan than Jordan ever did without Pippen.

 

[dtgold88]

Precisely how I feel when a poster makes a blanket statement and fails to back it up.

The Bulls demolished the 5-time Champion Lakers in the 91 Finals... using your rationale those Lakers were better than any team LeBron faced in the Finals (including those Spurs because James lost to them twice).

See how silly that logic sounds.

failed to back it up SA won 5 titles. The Jazz? none

 

[MAGA2024]

GOAT debate isn’t only about team accomplishments. It is an important part of the resume, but only part.

You are punishing a player for losing to superior teams.

Jordan lost to superior teams plenty in his career too.

How is a "lower" seed viewed as a superior team exactly, unless said lower team was only the lower seed because they suffered significant injuries to key players during the regular season while the higher seed didn't (which wasN't the case with the 09 Magic, 10 Celtics, 11 Mavs and 25 T'Wolves, certainly not relative to any injuries suffered from LeBron's teams during those seasons)?

Bottom line: LeBron lost to lower seeds 4 times. Jordan never did... "team accomplishments" HEAVILY favor Jordan.

In terms of individual success, Jordan owns several more MVP's and several more 1st Team Defense selections in HALF the time. Jordan was a 10-time Scoring Champion who was also (hands-down) the greatest Defensive SG in NBA history (and also in the discussion for GOAT defender). Jordan also has LeBron beat in all the advanced statistical metrics.

In other words Jordan was BOTH a GOAT level Offensive player "and" a GOAT level Defensive player... no other player in history can say the same, certainly not LeBron. As a player Jordan also had zero (0) weakneses/flaws in his game. LeBron has several.

So again, LeBron has "longevity stats" on Jordan (just like Kobe, Malone, Jabbar, etc). That's it, that's all... and that's not nearly enough to put him on MJ's level or even close to it.

Put simply: Jordan accomplished more in 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than LeBron has done in 22 seasons. In what universe does that put James over MJ (or even close)?

 

[dtgold88]

So let's see if I got this straight:

- Missing the playoffs 4 times = not on LeBron
- Losing to lower seeds 4 times = not on LeBron
- Getting swept 2 times in the Finals = not on LeBron
- Getting taken to a Game 7 eight (8) times = not on LeBron
- 6 Finals losses = not on LeBron
- Playing on bad to below-average to just average Defensive teams 7 out of the past 11 seasons = not on LeBron
- Having several flaws/weaknesses as a Player = not on LeBron

On the flipside:

- All of Jordan's accomplishments = because of his superior / far more talented (than the opponents') teammates

Have I got that right?

Well, what's interesting is that LeBron has played alongside seven (7) different All NBA caliber teammates (while still in their prime), 8 different All Star teammates, and easily 12-14 future/current HOFERS.

Jordan, meanwhile, played alongside one (1) All NBA player (Pippen), one (1) All Star teammate (Pippen), and 6 HOFERS (Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc primarily). He played alongside George Gervin for 18 games and 11 Playoff "minutes" during the Ice Man's final season in 1986, Artis Gilmore for 24 games in 1988 (Gilmore's last year in the league), and 43-year old Robert Parish for 18 "minutes" in the 97 Playoffs (during The Chief's final NBA season).

So tell me again why LeBron has ANY argument for GOAT (over Jordan)... because all I'm reading are his fans making excuse after excuse after excuse for all of the black-eyes, failures and shortcomings on LeBron's resume (despite playing alongside a boatload of All-Star/HOF/All NBA teammates) while at the same time giving Pippen (and a roster of specialists and role players) all the credit for everything Jordan accomplished.

Hate to break it to ya, but that's not a very convincng argument. In fact it's not an argument at all... it's just excuse after excuse after excuse for LeBron, and as noted, GOAT's aren't supposed to have excuses.

who is it on in every season he did not have Pippen MJ never won a playoff series?

 

[dtgold88]

I believe that Pippen took the Bulls further in the playoffs without Jordan than Jordan ever did without Pippen.

yep....55 wins and EC semis. MJ never won more than 42 without Pippen and never won a playoff series.

 

[MAGA2024]

You do get that usually top 3 teams make the Finals every year though, right?

Doesn’t address the point about the gap between the Bulls and their competition.

Admittedly, the first title and the last were the 2 years where they played a team that was close to their equals. Mostly because the Pippen/Grant/Armstrong type players were still an ascending in ‘91 and Pippen was a shell of his former self by playoff time ‘98.

But the other 4 titles?

Bulls were hands down superior to everyone they faced.

I have addressed the (alleged) "gap" repeatedly with hard-core facts and substance you LeBron fans refuse to accept.

Age, team records/standings, individual awards/achievements by the opponents' players (ALL during the years they faced Jordan in the Playoffs) clearly shows the Bulls' competition was fierce and legitimate.

...but YES, the Bulls were superior "because of" Jordan.

That's the point, and that's why he's the GOAT.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I believe that Pippen took the Bulls further in the playoffs without Jordan than Jordan ever did without Pippen.

MJ gets an enormous pass for retiring simply because Pippen couldn't be re-signed

 

[dtgold88]

You sure about that?

91 Lakers
Mychal Thompson: 36
Magic Johnson: 31
Teagle: 30
James Worthy: 29
Byron Scott: 29
Sam Perkins: 29
A.C. Green: 27
Vlade Divac: 22
Campbell: 22

Bulls destroyed those "old geezers" in 5 games.

SMH

Now let's check out some of those Spurs teams...

2014 Spurs
Duncan: 37
Ginobili: 36
Bonner: 33
Parker: 31
Diaw: 31
Belinelli: 27
Green: 26
Kawhi: 22

That team CRUSHED (absolute prime) LeBron, (absolute prime) Bosh, and 32 year old Wade (still playing at an All Star level), although the Heat beat essentially those Spurs the previous year.

Still... BOTH those Spurs' teams' main players were much older than the top guys from the 91 Lakers.

Hell... even the 2007 Spurs were older than the 91 Lakers

2007 Spurs
Horry: 36
Barry: 35
Bowen: 35
Finley: 33
Oberto: 31
Duncan: 30
Elson: 30
Ginobili: 29
Parker: 24

Once again... because Jordan and the Bulls were such an unstoppable juggernaut people just blindly "assume" their competition was sub par, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Hello? Lebron's #2 in the 2007 series was Mo Williams. .......many in the 2014 Spur group went on to win at least 1 more title.

Utah, Portland, Phoenix and Seattle? combined for 0.

 

[tlance]

I have addressed the (alleged) "gap" repeatedly with hard-core facts and substance you LeBron fans refuse to accept.

Age, team records/standings, individual awards/achievements by the opponents' players (ALL during the years they faced Jordan in the Playoffs) clearly shows the Bulls' competition was fierce and legitimate.

...but YES, the Bulls were superior "because of" Jordan.

That's the point, and that's why he's the GOAT.

No.

The facts you used showed that the ‘91 Lakers were 3rd in net rating compared to other teams in that year.

Ok, so what?

That doesn’t help compare them to any team from any other season.

 

[dtgold88]

MJ gets an enormous pass for retiring simply because Pippen couldn't be re-signed

Yep......MJ quit a second time. This time when things were about to get hard with no Pippen to hold his hand.

 

[tlance]

How is a "lower" seed viewed as a superior team exactly, unless said lower team was only the lower seed because they suffered significant injuries to key players during the regular season while the higher seed didn't (which wasN't the case with the 09 Magic, 10 Celtics, 11 Mavs and 25 T'Wolves, certainly not relative to any injuries suffered from LeBron's teams during those seasons)?

Bottom line: LeBron lost to lower seeds 4 times. Jordan never did... "team accomplishments" HEAVILY favor Jordan.

In terms of individual success, Jordan owns several more MVP's and several more 1st Team Defense selections in HALF the time. Jordan was a 10-time Scoring Champion who was also (hands-down) the greatest Defensive SG in NBA history (and also in the discussion for GOAT defender). Jordan also has LeBron beat in all the advanced statistical metrics.

In other words Jordan was BOTH a GOAT level Offensive player "and" a GOAT level Defensive player... no other player in history can say the same, certainly not LeBron. As a player Jordan also had zero (0) weakneses/flaws in his game. LeBron has several.

So again, LeBron has "longevity stats" on Jordan (just like Kobe, Malone, Jabbar, etc). That's it, that's all... and that's not nearly enough to put him on MJ's level or even close to it.

Put simply: Jordan accomplished more in 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than LeBron has done in 22 seasons. In what universe does that put James over MJ (or even close)?

I am not saying the Wolves were a superior team. They were equals.

The Lakers won 1 more game than the Wolves.

And if we are going to start tossing blame around, many Lakers failed to live up to expectations in that series. Nine more so than rookie coach JJ Reddick. LeBron is not on that list.

 

[MAGA2024]

The truth is Magic had a poor offensive series because he was likely feeling the affects of having a deadly virus. The Pistons swept that same Lakers team two years earlier. You are literally the ONLY person I've seen try to argue the 91 Lakers are anywhere in the same universe as the 2014 Spurs. Again, ZERO playoff series wins after 91

Yes of course, that must be it... the "deadly" virus didn't impact Magic in the first 3 rounds, ONLY in the Finals against the Bulls.

LOL

SMH

...and until/unless you/anyone else can refute my argument (ie; 91 Lakers vs. 14 Spurs), my points stand.

You tried using the ole' "Lakers were old / past their prime" argument, but I shot that down rather easily. Then you went to the "Magic had AIDS" excuse, and you got shot down with facts on that one too.

What else you got besides empty rhetoric?

 

[thunderc]

Back to the original thread, Shai is one of 2 players in the league that can remind you of Jordan, the other is Edwards. Shai’s mid-range game is the closest thing to MJ since though.

 

[MAGA2024]

MJ was great. Weve all said a million times you can easily call him the GOAT

There is a zero percent chance MJ carries the 2007 Cavs to a title or the 2015 Cavs minus Love and Kyrie to a title, or beats the 2017 Dubs with the roster LeBron had.

Do i think prime MJ and the Heat win against the Mavs? Yes.

Id go further and say MJ aint beating those Celtics either.

Additionally LeBron gets ZERO credit for effectively ending the 2000s Pistons

So "hypotheticals" is your argument now??

Okay, how about this one: There is ZERO chance LeBron makes anywhere close to 10 Finals "appearances" if he played his entire career in the tougher (Western) Conference, and therefore he wouldn't even be considered Top 10 all-time today.

I like hypotheticals too, but unfortunately they carry zero (0) weight in the world of what happens in reality.

 

[tlance]

So "hypotheticals" is your argument now??

Okay, how about this one: There is ZERO chance LeBron makes anywhere close to 10 Finals "appearances" if he played his entire career in the tougher (Western) Conference, and therefore he wouldn't even be considered Top 10 all-time today.

I like hypotheticals too, but unfortunately they carry zero (0) weight in the world of what happens in reality.

Now that is just plain dumb.

Not top 10?

Please.

1 title with the rest of his resume would easily be top 10. Maybe even top 5.

You have some good info. No need for the hyperbole and extreme exaggeration.

 

[MAGA2024]

who is it on in every season he did not have Pippen MJ never won a playoff series?

If you really have to ask that question then you really shouldn't be offering an opinion on this topic... with respect.

Rookie" Jordan inherited a 21-win Bulls teams (which he led to 38 wins) and then faced the 59-win Bucks team with 2 All NBA players in the first-round.

Second and third year Jordan (with Charles Oakley as the second best player on the team) faced the GOAT level Celtics in the first-round (with 5 HOFERS and 3 All Defenders on the team).

Enter "rookie" Scottie Pippen and his 8-Points, 6-Rebounds and 4-Assists a game off the bench... and with just that little bit of support Jordan took the Bulls to 50 wins and the second-round.

You trying to say it was due to Pippen?

Yeah... I think not.

 

[MAGA2024]

yep....55 wins and EC semis. MJ never won more than 42 without Pippen and never won a playoff series.

So Pippen is the GOAT... or Pippen > LeBron???

Which is it?

lol