MLB Absorbs ***** League Stats (knee grow)

[wazzu31]

That was my understanding, but I don’t really know the history enough to SAY anything. But if there wasn’t some kind of structured schedule, counting stats become corrupted as well. Maris hit his 61, but that was super controversial because he had an extra 7 games in his schedule to achieve it. Now we need to rate Josh Gibson’s 1943 season where he only played in 69 games on the same level as Barry Bonds’ 2004 where he played in 147 games?

I understand the problems that the N-Leagues encountered. But from a pure baseball POV I have a hard time swallowing the argument that NegL = NL = AL. I totally get the desire to want to fully integrate those numbers. But this pesky thing called “reality” is getting in the way of my seeing it.

Eh, not really. Do we have definitive stats, no. But whites and blacks barnstormed to make extra money. And basically everyone agreed that Gibson would’ve been one of the best MLB hitters had the handshake deal wasn’t made.

 

[calsnowskier]

Eh, not really. Do we have definitive stats, no. But whites and blacks barnstormed to make extra money. And basically everyone agreed that Gibson would’ve been one of the best MLB hitters had the handshake deal wasn’t made.

And “white” barnstorming isn’t recognized for MLB stats. Why should “black” barnstorming?

Gibson has been recognized as one of the inner-circle greats for my whole life. How does introducing low-confidence statistics into the pool change that?

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Thanks, didn’t know that

There are good arguments for and against. Don’t really care much about it.

It's better to just acknowledge it for what it is. I know that'll piss off the records purists, but hyping up Ruth hitting HR's off of some guy named "Bullet Bob" while dissing Josh Gibson is a really bad all around look. The fact of the matter is pretty much all numbers from pre-integration are fundamentally problematic. Makes more sense to acknowledge the history and work from there. We're talking baseball pushing 100 years ago now. I don't see the issue.

 

[Cedrique]

And “white” barnstorming isn’t recognized for MLB stats. Why should “black” barnstorming?

Gibson has been recognized as one of the inner-circle greats for my whole life. How does introducing low-confidence statistics into the pool change that?

Why don't you have confidence in the stats? Baseball reference is pretty thorough. Since it started many years ago they have been researching by obtaining scorecards and information from all different sources. I tend to believe that the stats are pretty reliable.

(although I'm admittedly a little skeptical of the Launch angle and exit Velocity numbers)

 

[broncosmitty]

It's better to just acknowledge it for what it is. I know that'll piss off the records purists, but hyping up Ruth hitting HR's off of some guy named "Bullet Bob" while dissing Josh Gibson is a really bad all around look. The fact of the matter is pretty much all numbers from pre-integration are fundamentally problematic. Makes more sense to acknowledge the history and work from there. We're talking baseball pushing 100 years ago now. I don't see the issue.

Kinda surprised you had the attention span to stick with this thread so long.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Kinda surprised you had the attention span to stick with this thread so long.

ADD inattentive isn't completely undefeated, some would say.

 

[broncosmitty]

ADD inattentive isn't completely undefeated, some would say.

The H fucks more shit up than anything.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Overstated but it should help win a few

very little... new fans dont care about history... at least not right away... sport has to be interesting and fun first...

Baseball is very behind the other sports in targeting youth...

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Josh Gibson is the GOAT

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And “white” barnstorming isn’t recognized for MLB stats. Why should “black” barnstorming?

Gibson has been recognized as one of the inner-circle greats for my whole life. How does introducing low-confidence statistics into the pool change that?

you know as well as anyone, that stats are almost never used correctly, and are usually cherrypicked to prove someone's point... this just makes that easier... easier to find.... and offiicially recognized...

 

[Fountain City Blues]

There is probably a better way to do this but I'm not super attached to player efficiency stats and I think this probably brings more interest to the game.

I think anybody obsessed with player efficiency stats or counting stats on the other end is generally someone that is not worth listening to.

 

[Cedrique]

Why don't you have confidence in the stats? Baseball reference is pretty thorough. Since it started many years ago they have been researching by obtaining scorecards and information from all different sources. I tend to believe that the stats are pretty reliable.

(although I'm admittedly a little skeptical of the Launch angle and exit Velocity numbers)

I take this all back. I'm confusing Baseball Reference with MLB, although I'm sure the MLB committee used Baseball Reference in some form during their research.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

I had a friend who worked with SABR on a lot of research. I asked him about this when BB Reference added the Negr0 Leagues. He said he and other had two issues. Once was who was the official scorer and if there really was one. The majors appoint an official scorer, a person who knows baseball. Negr0 Leagues cold have been scored by a player wife or the village idiot. Did the scorer count a fielder's choice as a hit? Did he fall asleep for two innings? Another thing that troubled him was the level of competition. Those leagues seemed to have a super team and the rest being cannon fodder. The Chicago American Giants, Homestead Grays, Pittsburgh Crawfords, KC Monarchs were so far ahead of the competition as to make the league competition a joke. That meant the Gibsons, Bells, Charlestons padded stats against the crap they played. And they made most of their money barnstorming

 

[calsnowskier]

It's better to just acknowledge it for what it is. I know that'll piss off the records purists, but hyping up Ruth hitting HR's off of some guy named "Bullet Bob" while dissing Josh Gibson is a really bad all around look. The fact of the matter is pretty much all numbers from pre-integration are fundamentally problematic. Makes more sense to acknowledge the history and work from there. We're talking baseball pushing 100 years ago now. I don't see the issue.

Who is/was dissing Gibson?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I had a friend who worked with SABR on a lot of research. I asked him about this when BB Reference added the Negr0 Leagues. He said he and other had two issues. Once was who was the official scorer and if there really was one. The majors appoint an official scorer, a person who knows baseball. Negr0 Leagues cold have been scored by a player wife or the village idiot. Did the scorer count a fielder's choice as a hit? Did he fall asleep for two innings? Another thing that troubled him was the level of competition. Those leagues seemed to have a super team and the rest being cannon fodder. The Chicago American Giants, Homestead Grays, Pittsburgh Crawfords, KC Monarchs were so far ahead of the competition as to make the league competition a joke. That meant the Gibsons, Bells, Charlestons padded stats against the crap they played. And they made most of their money barnstorming

not sure if you needed that friend to tell you these issues... they were pretty obvious...


this will be akin to the NBA and NFL stats and how they separated by leagues... ABA and AFL...

the only difference is baseball never merged...

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Who is/was dissing Gibson?

No one in their right mind can diss Josh Gibson. The contemporary white players had nightmares about Gibson playing in the majors. Same thing with the great players in those leagues, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, Judy Johnson. But I've also read about Gibson's 800+ career homers. How many would Ruth, Foxx et al had if they played 60 league games and 200 games against squads from Podunk, Iowa or Achingass, Arkansas?

 

[eaglesnut]

Baseball is very behind the other sports in targeting youth...

They really think numbers and math is going to get black kids to play the sport.

 

[eaglesnut]

No one in their right mind can diss Josh Gibson. The contemporary white players had nightmares about Gibson playing in the majors. Same thing with the great players in those leagues, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, Judy Johnson. But I've also read about Gibson's 800+ career homers. How many would Ruth, Foxx et al had if they played 60 league games and 200 games against squads from Podunk, Iowa or Achingass, Arkansas?

I kept stats from our wiffle ball games in 4th grade. We had some nice fat bats.

I'll alert the MLB to add my records to their database.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

They really think numbers and math is going to get black kids to play the sport.

i mean, this was clearly not about the numbers... but no, this is not going to grab new fans... all this does is validating the n3gr0 leagues...

But we can always bypass any record, any trivia question, with the qualifier of MLB only...

 

[Fountain City Blues]

No one in their right mind can diss Josh Gibson. The contemporary white players had nightmares about Gibson playing in the majors. Same thing with the great players in those leagues, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, Judy Johnson. But I've also read about Gibson's 800+ career homers. How many would Ruth, Foxx et al had if they played 60 league games and 200 games against squads from Podunk, Iowa or Achingass, Arkansas?

Unfortunately plenty of racists exist. Fire up a social media app like X, Facebook, etc and read the replies.