Making a Murderer

[ckhokie]

On Netflix, and I recommend. Pretty jaw-dropping at times.

Currently on episode 8 of 10, so no spoilers yet

 

[ckhokie]

@Smart have you watched this yet?

 

[Smart]

I haven't seen it. I've talked to several people that have, and I also was vaguely familiar with the case before the show started.

I think the prosecution acted improperly and certainly was unprofessional in some of the comments they made. In particular, they used the media to try to bolster their case which is an ethics violation. Ironically, this is one of the biggest issues with most cases in the other direction: The defense is allowed to leak facts to influence the public, while the prosecution is not.

I also think that the evidence is being misrepresented in what is thoroughly an advocacy piece and that key pieces which suggest the Defendant's guilt are ignored. It's pretty clear that Avery was on the property where the crime occurred. There is non-blood DNA evidence as well, which it would be almost impossible to plant. There is ballistics evidence which was ignored by the show. And there is evidence that the Defendant was really psychotic and intent on killing which was not only not in the film, but barred from trial based on the rules of evidence.

The idea that any case is stacked against the Defendant, as these documentaries try to push, is ludicrous. I think any prosecutor would love it if both sides were allowed to present all evidence. As it is, uncooperative witnesses, hearsay, acts propensity, a high burden (BRD), a truly impossible disclosure standard, the exclusionary rule, and the Defendant/spouse's privilege allow guilty person after guilty person to go free. Nobody ever wants to make documentaries about those issues. It doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[ckhokie]

I haven't seen it. I've talked to several people that have, and I also was vaguely familiar with the case before the show started.

I think the prosecution acted improperly and certainly was unprofessional in some of the comments they made. In particular, they used the media to try to bolster their case which is an ethics violation. Ironically, this is one of the biggest issues with most cases in the other direction: The defense is allowed to leak facts to influence the public, while the prosecution is not.

I also think that the evidence is being misrepresented in what is thoroughly an advocacy piece and that key pieces which suggest the Defendant's guilt are ignored. It's pretty clear that Avery was on the property where the crime occurred. There is non-blood DNA evidence as well, which it would be almost impossible to plant. There is ballistics evidence which was ignored by the show. And there is evidence that the Defendant was really psychotic and intent on killing which was not only not in the film, but barred from trial based on the rules of evidence.

The idea that any case is stacked against the Defendant, as these documentaries try to push, is ludicrous. I think any prosecutor would love it if both sides were allowed to present all evidence. As it is, uncooperative witnesses, hearsay, acts propensity, a high burden (BRD), a truly impossible disclosure standard, the exclusionary rule, and the Defendant/spouse's privilege allow guilty person after guilty person to go free. Nobody ever wants to make documentaries about those issues. It doesn't fit the narrative.

While there was plenty of evidence against Avery, I just couldn't understand a motive - which wasn't really talked about in the documentary. No motive, no murder weapon, no clear cause of death. Regardless of other circumstantial evidence, not having any of those three, or evidence of them connecting to the defendant, I don't know how you can convict of 1st degree murder. The 'physical' evidence was shaky at best.

The biggest issue I had was with Dassey, the nephew. While watching the early episodes (I've since finished the series), I even said to my gf, It's almost like the appointed attorney is colluding with the prosecutor. Very frustrating to see he didn't get a mistrial he clearly deserved - especially considering the entire lack of physical evidence corroborating him.

 

[ckhokie]

Interesting additional details

Spoiler

Is Steven Avery Guilty? Evidence 'Making a Murderer' Didn't Present

 

[RobBase]

So basically, a good fiction TV show.

 

[Marley]

Not really. There were details that were omitted that didn't fit the narrative of the story but the documentary wasn't so much about Avery and Dassey as it was about the screwed up nature of the "justice system' in Manitowoc county.

Avery and Dassey could very well have been the killers but the presumption of innocence was never there from the get go. Investigators had 1 target on their radar, which narrowed their vision.

 

[Marley]

While there was plenty of evidence against Avery, I just couldn't understand a motive - which wasn't really talked about in the documentary. No motive, no murder weapon, no clear cause of death. Regardless of other circumstantial evidence, not having any of those three, or evidence of them connecting to the defendant, I don't know how you can convict of 1st degree murder. The 'physical' evidence was shaky at best.

The biggest issue I had was with Dassey, the nephew. While watching the early episodes (I've since finished the series), I even said to my gf, It's almost like the appointed attorney is colluding with the prosecutor. Very frustrating to see he didn't get a mistrial he clearly deserved - especially considering the entire lack of physical evidence corroborating him.

Early on in the series, Avery mentioned that Bobby Dassey left shortly after Teresa Haibach left the scrap yard. Bobby and Scott Tadych then both pointed the finger at Steven, although Bobby was clearly buying in his testimony.

My belief is that these 2 could have easily have offed Haibach and then planted the bones in the burn pit. That alone should have also made them a focus in the investigation.

 

[ckhokie]

Early on in the series, Avery mentioned that Bobby Dassey left shortly after Teresa Haibach left the scrap yard. Bobby and Scott Tadych then both pointed the finger at Steven, although Bobby was clearly buying in his testimony.

My belief is that these 2 could have easily have offed Haibach and then planted the bones in the burn pit. That alone should have also made them a focus in the investigation.

I agree.

So does this person.
This Is The Most Credible 'Making A Murderer' Theory I've Seen So Far

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on October 31, Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call-in" instead of "radio-in" the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4 two days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically keep quiet about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo road on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.
By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated -- everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right. Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom. He must have been like WTF?!

A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder: "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN." We will see Scott, we will see........."

 

[TKOSpikes]

Early on in the series, Avery mentioned that Bobby Dassey left shortly after Teresa Haibach left the scrap yard. Bobby and Scott Tadych then both pointed the finger at Steven, although Bobby was clearly buying in his testimony.

My belief is that these 2 could have easily have offed Haibach and then planted the bones in the burn pit. That alone should have also made them a focus in the investigation.

I agree too. And that girl (sorry, can't remember her name), who gave her statement about Brendan in the first place was likely told to do that by them.

What I don't get is why the "evidence" collected was allowed, when the Sheriff's Dept. was supposed to not be involved?

Disturbing... even if it was only one-sided.... pretty big side, IMO.

 

[Marley]

For anyone interested in having the Manitowoc and Calumet County Sheriff Offices investigated, here's the link to the online petition.

 

[The Derski]

Have any of you seen it? What's your opinion?

 

[The Derski]

**SPOILER ALERT**
Probably throughout this whole thread.

 

[The Derski]

It's hard for me to form a final opinion on the whole case based on the series as it was biased in favor of Steven Avery and obviously left out a lot of testimony against him, but they wouldn't have considered making the show had they not truly believed that there was a legitimate case in his defense. My main issue is the way they treated Avery's cousin, Brendon Dassey. The kid is basically mentally challenged and the way they interrogated him was completely unfair and his whole "confession" should have been inadmissible.

 

[johnson]

The disgusting part was that both should have been found NOT GUILTY. Anyone being honest with themselves has to acknowledge there was reason in both cases to raise an eyebrow and have a reasonable doubt. That's the problem with our justice system...juries don't grasp the standard and many people get convicted that shouldn't.

I thought it was great in that it showed what I believe was so obviously a false confession with the slow kid. People tend to think nobody could ever confess to something unless they did it. It's ignorant, but understandable...I know a few people that changed their minds after seeing this.

Could Avery have done it? Sure. It's certainly possible. But that misses what should have been the larger points.

The Prosecutor and cops in this situation were slime and like most stories, will all get to skate along through life with no real consequences to their actions.

 

[huskers1217]

thats all i know about Steve Avery

 

[occupant]

I was so pissed when I heard that verdict....

I almost quit watching it right there. The blood sample was the clincher for me.

 

[Uhsplit]

Yet, someone killed that girl and her bones were found on the Avery property. One or more of them did it.
The program was painted with a brush to make it look like Avery was framed. I am not saying he is guilty or innocent.
But, look at the letters where he threatened his ex about killing her.
Look at dousing the family cat with gas and oil then throwing it in the fire. That is fucked up.
Running the gal off the road and pulling out a gun to scare her.
Whatever his reasons were for doing that stuff doesn't matter. That boy has some issues.

 

[Win TWINS!!!]

I think the whole family was mentally retarded.

 

[night]

Have any of you seen it? What's your opinion?

I'll check it out. They had some protesters on the local news for both sides.