LPGA / PGA and Rule's Fiascos

[ATL96Steeler]

It's all solved by not making the infraction.

I get your point though.

I just think expecting viewers to not call in is like asking a jury to strike from the record a statement they just heard. It happened. We should ignore it?

Infraction...I agree...she has to own that and I'm sure she does. She'll be more careful marking her ball from this point forward.

The viewers calling in is not really the problem...it's the tour responding to the call that's the problem. The tour invites the calls by their actions. Once viewers realize nothing will happen, they will stop calling in.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

The bottom line is with Lexi she broke a rule. If there's video of Adam Scott kicking a ball away from a pinecone, or Jim Furyk moving a stick causing his ball to move it's a penalty and it shouldn't matter who catches it. The only problem I have was with the additional two strokes she was assessed for signing an incorrect scorecard. That doesn't seem right.

Imo it should matter for the same reason you have with the 2 additional strokes.

Whose to say the viewer didn't intently wait until the following day. If the tour wants the correct score, they should want the correct score for every player in the field...not just those in the final few groups that are on TV.

 

[uncfan103]

Imo it should matter for the same reason you have with the 2 additional strokes.

Whose to say the viewer didn't intently wait until the following day. If the tour wants the correct score, they should want the correct score for every player in the field...not just those in the final few groups that are on TV.

It sucks for Lexi, but where do you draw the line? Did she commit a penalty? Yes. Did she sign an incorrect scorecard? Yes. Is that her fault? No.

But, how do you differentiate between different scenarios? Like, someone using a footwedge or someone who saw their ball move when they picked up their ball mark? That person knows they committed a penalty, and if they don't acknowledge it they knowingly signed an incorrect scorecard. But, do the rules officials start guessing who knew and who didn't? And, do you stop blatant cheating? Obviously, it's not something that should/could happen but if someone breaks a rule and it's caught on tv, or by a viewer at the tournament, they should still be penalized.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

It sucks for Lexi, but where do you draw the line? Did she commit a penalty? Yes. Did she sign an incorrect scorecard? Yes. Is that her fault? No.

But, how do you differentiate between different scenarios? Like, someone using a footwedge or someone who saw their ball move when they picked up their ball mark? That person knows they committed a penalty, and if they don't acknowledge it they knowingly signed an incorrect scorecard. But, do the rules officials start guessing who knew and who didn't? And, do you stop blatant cheating? Obviously, it's not something that should/could happen but if someone breaks a rule and it's caught on tv, or by a viewer at the tournament, they should still be penalized.

I have no empathy for Lexi...she made the infraction, and she still had opportunities to win the tournament or extend the playoff and left her puts short.

Yeah, but not you're not addressing infractions that could be happening by players not being televised.

IMO the technology is there to put all players under the watch of cameras and have video rules officials monitoring all the players and take away viewer impact on the outcome of pro golf tournaments.

The other part I don't like about viewers is you don't know what motives a viewer might have...you can wager on pro golf. I'm not saying that was the case with Lexi, but the potential is there...that gray area should not be there imo.

 

[Wazmankg]

I agree with Phil...

I feel a lot less sorry for her after seeing it from that angle. It's hard to believe that was an accident. She picked it up, barely lifting it off the ground, and moved it over an inch.

 

[GNG]

I feel a lot less sorry for her after seeing it from that angle. It's hard to believe that was an accident. She picked it up, barely lifting it off the ground, and moved it over an inch.

Actually she didn't improve her lie so the penalty was too severe. Penalizing her an additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect scorecard was ridiculous.

 

[Wazmankg]

Actually she didn't improve her lie so the penalty was too severe. Penalizing her an additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect scorecard was ridiculous.

Maybe they'll look at adjusting that 2 stroke penalty rule for signing an incorrect scorecard to cover situations like this. That does seem excessive, but as others have said she'd have been DQ'd in past years. As far as improving her lie, idk, but she definitely moved her ball over and I don't think it was an accident. She might only miss that putt once every few years or so anyway, but I bet she saw something she didn't like in her line. Did you listen to what Phil said about it in your clip ? Without calling her out, he was very clear about what he thought about people who screw around like that when marking and replacing their ball.

 

[TheStarOne]

but as others have said she'd have been DQ'd in past years.

DQed for what?....because somebody selectively emailed a video in? As I said before,
if you're going to police players with stupid idiot viewers, then you have to use video on every shot, by every player, in every tournament. And if Phil insinuates other players have done it, then why weren't they penalized for it? Rules officials and other players are there for a reason.
And give me a measurement as to when a penalty should be enforced.
1/128th of an inch?......1/8th of an inch......1/4 of an inch?

and then there's the issue of making a ruling after 24 hours

And again, if your ball on the green, is in a golfer's putting line.....how accurate is moving your ball and then moving it back? Could you intentionally or unintentionally miss the original mark by an inch or more?
...of course you could.

 

[Wazmankg]

DQed for what?....because somebody selectively emailed a video in? As I said before,
if you're going to police players with stupid idiot viewers, then you have to use video on every shot, by every player, in every tournament. And if Phil insinuates other players have done it, then why weren't they penalized for it? Rules officials and other players are there for a reason.
And give me a measurement as to when a penalty should be enforced.
1/128th of an inch?......1/8th of an inch......1/4 of an inch?

and then there's the issue of making a ruling after 24 hours

And again, if your ball on the green, is in a golfer's putting line.....how accurate is moving your ball and then moving it back? Could you intentionally or unintentionally miss the original mark by an inch or more?
...of course you could.

I agree that the extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card is too penal. But after looking at that video of her marking and replacing that ball again it's hard to understand how that was done accidentally. I think that's what the rules officials thought too, and that's why they decided to penalize her, though they didn't come out and say that.

Obviously it could get ridiculous when assessing a ball replacement down to unrealistically minuscule measurements. It's always going to be somewhat subjective. But that wasn't the situation here. She picked it up, lifting it no more than an inch off the ground, and moved it over sideways nearly a ball. It may not have been intentional. Only Lexi knows that. But it sure as hell looked intentional.

There's really no good answer to any of your other points. The camera isn't going to catch everything. I think that once the round is in the books that should be it. But I don't think ignoring everything the camera catches is a good idea either. Suppose someone blatantly cheats and his group doesn't catch it, but the whole world knows it and he winds up winning the tournament by a stroke. I think that would be a worse situation than the current state of things.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I agree that the extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card is too penal. But after looking at that video of her marking and replacing that ball again it's hard to understand how that was done accidentally. I think that's what the rules officials thought too, and that's why they decided to penalize her, though they didn't come out and say that.

Obviously it could get ridiculous when assessing a ball replacement down to unrealistically minuscule measurements. It's always going to be somewhat subjective. But that wasn't the situation here. She picked it up, lifting it no more than an inch off the ground, and moved it over sideways nearly a ball. It may not have been intentional. Only Lexi knows that. But it sure as hell looked intentional.

There's really no good answer to any of your other points. The camera isn't going to catch everything. I think that once the round is in the books that should be it. But I don't think ignoring everything the camera catches is a good idea either. Suppose someone blatantly cheats and his group doesn't catch it, but the whole world knows it and he winds up winning the tournament by a stroke. I think that would be a worse situation than the current state of things.

Good post.

I won't question whether it was intentional or accident but the ball was in a different position from the mark and she played it...clear penalty.

Your last paragraph...it seems like a lot of emphasis is put on a leader. I understand they are the ones holding the trophy and getting all the spoils that go with winning. Everyone in the field that makes the cut is playing for part of the purse. If the T-30 place finisher commits the same infraction no one knows. If caught maybe they finish T35 to T40 that affects the check for everyone T30 and up. My point here is imo TV viewers should be part of the ruling authority. All players should be under watch of cameras and have video monitor officials....the technology is there, and the money is there to afford it.

Cameras won't catch everything, but everything that is caught is normally caught via a camera.

 

[Wazmankg]

Good post.

I won't question whether it was intentional or accident but the ball was in a different position from the mark and she played it...clear penalty.

Your last paragraph...it seems like a lot of emphasis is put on a leader. I understand they are the ones holding the trophy and getting all the spoils that go with winning. Everyone in the field that makes the cut is playing for part of the purse. If the T-30 place finisher commits the same infraction no one knows. If caught maybe they finish T35 to T40 that affects the check for everyone T30 and up. My point here is imo TV viewers should be part of the ruling authority. All players should be under watch of cameras and have video monitor officials....the technology is there, and the money is there to afford it.

Cameras won't catch everything, but everything that is caught is normally caught via a camera.

That would be a perfect world scenario. To get it right you'd need a camera on every golfer every day (why should potential Thur/Fri infractions be ignored?) plus enough eyeballs to review it all. It's not my money, but I think the tours would find that prohibitively expensive.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

That would be a perfect world scenario. To get it right you'd need a camera on every golfer every day (why should potential Thur/Fri infractions be ignored?) plus enough eyeballs to review it all. It's not my money, but I think the tours would find that prohibitively expensive.

I realize my suggestion is perfect world, and the tour is not likely to do it. They will continue to allow TV viewers to call in and report infractions that players don't report or catch themselves...essentially to do their job for them. 18 Holes...18 cameras or even 36 cameras...I think it could be done.

I remember and I'm sure you do as well back in the day there was a line judge in tennis to determine if a ball was in or out...the line judge is still there, but if a player challenges, they have the technology to ensure a correct call. The sport evolved to that.

 

[TheStarOne]

and now the ruling bodies of golf have semi changed some rules almost........maybe

Christie Kerr, on a windy day today, was on a putting green, addressed her putt (grounded her putter) and backed off , the ball moved.....Did she cause it to move?.....My understanding she wasn't penalized.


And maybe, the couch potato golf rule's officials, won't have a say in FUTURE golf tournaments. It's about time.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

and now the ruling bodies of golf have semi changed some rules almost........maybe

Christie Kerr, on a windy day today, was on a putting green, addressed her putt (grounded her putter) and backed off , the ball moved.....Did she cause it to move?.....My understanding she wasn't penalized.


And maybe, the couch potato golf rule's officials, won't have a say in FUTURE golf tournaments. It's about time.

Kerr...it was a an extremely windy day in TX huh.

That happened to several players...not sure if the balls were just oscillating or literally changing position. I'm not sure how long after you've grounded the putter behind the ball and back off that you're still deemed to have caused the ball to move.