Looking back at WCW

[Judge Fudge]

I also think that part of the reason that people shit on it was that stupid Goldberg storyline that went on throughout that night with Liz. They wanted to see Goldberg in the main event against Nash and didn't get it. When you have over 40,000 people I believe (feel free to correct me if that's wrong) in the Georgia Dome wanting that match and you provide a screwjob finish, it's going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

Good point

 

[The Q]

I get that these were heels but IMHO, and WCW didn't learn from this mistake, Your destroying the legacy and the prestige of your main belt.

With that being said. I don't know if it is my autism or just the way I see things but I do have a tendency to see past what is going on...

I use this sometimes in my mind...


I don't focus on the goal. I recognize the song that is playing in the background... Canucks goal song from late 2000's- mid 2010's

they already spray painted the belt.

they wanted to “take over” wcw.

they really shouldn’t be respecting the belt imo

 

[Judge Fudge]

Vince was always going to beat Ted Turner because, in the end, WWF/E was Vince's baby while WCW was just one of many Ted Turner toys.

When Vince went outside of where he belonged (WBF/XFL), we saw how well that turned out.

Turner was great at what he did. Running a cable company. Alas, he was complete shit at owning a wrestling company.

and yet stumbled ass backwards into surviving.

95-97 Vince was very much on the ropes and really got lucky. Without the curtain call and Vince not able to afford Bret an Thus doing the absolute wrong thing (that they leaned into and it worked) we are still probably watching nitro

Actually, we might have been left with just ECW.

At the end of the day, Vince did not put WCW out of business. Time Warner did. No matter what, once the AOL/Time Warner merger happened, WCW was done. The Time Warner people hated wrestling and were hell-bent on getting rid of it, no matter what.

That is why IMO Eric Bischoff is on the same level as McMahon on the Wrestling Genius part.

He took over a Company that was LOSING MONEY that had a Stigma, and rightly so, attached to it and changed its landscape by adding A few big names from the big dog, Went toe to toe AND WON FOR A YEAR against said Big Dog.

He brought the Big Dog from being a angry pit bull to a poodle.

Unfortunately the Poodle a few tricks up his sleeve and turned into a angry pit bull again

 

[Judge Fudge]

Speaking of WCW: Bears legend McMichael reveals ALS diagnosis
Damn, that sucks.

Fuck. Hope it turns out well

 

[Judge Fudge]

they already spray painted the belt.

they wanted to “take over” wcw.

they really shouldn’t be respecting the belt imo

Good point but...

That is what they were supposed to do "get by".

What the Fingerpoke of Doom looks like to me, just me as a fan, it looks like something that should look like a hot as hell classy lady look like a girl who would "put out" for a piece of Chewing gum.

 

[The Q]

Good point but...

That is what they were supposed to do "get by".

What the Fingerpoke of Doom looks like to me, just me as a fan, it looks like something that should look like a hot as hell classy lady look like a girl who would "put out" for a piece of Chewing gum.

i get what they were trying to do.

it worked on 12 year old me.

that’s the intereting thing looking at it from my vantage point. Guys like foley and Austin didn’t do it for me cause I hadn’t gotten to the age where they should make sense to me.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Fuck. Hope it turns out well

Sadly it won't. Terminal disease. No treatment. It is only a matter of time.

My condolences to the McMichael clan.

 

[wazzu31]

it was great.

cruisweights should not be facing heavyweights

There shouldn’t have been a cruiserweights division when half the guys didn’t speak English and literally had no psychology and never a story in the matches. Just high spot after high spot. Cruiserweights and the NWO got WCW over but both were reasons WCW was brain dead in storylines at the end.

 

[wazzu31]

But at that point, how much power did Turner even have? Once the merger happened, didn't he give up the majority of his power within AOL-Time Warner? Even if he had tried, I doubt that they would've listened to him since I figure they didn't want to be known as a wrestling network and more of a legit cable network with shows.
WWF definitely went more with personalities during that era but a lot of those guys were able to have solid matches still. They had two once in a lifetime type talents at the same time with Austin and The Rock, so nobody could blame them for that. The wrestler I feel that got the bad end of everything was Bret Hart. He was the catalyst for the Austin-McMahon feud that drove WWF to probably it's best business it's ever done and then when he got to WCW, he came in right at their peak, had a lousy run because WCW didn't have a clue on how to use him and his in ring career ended with a whimper and a sad way for a guy as talented as he was to go out.
If they were to have survived, they would've needed to gut a lot of the older guys on that roster. There were way too many old guys making way more than they deserved at that point. Start fresh like they were at least looking like they were trying to there during the last six months or so during it's existence. And of course, they would've needed another network to air on since TNT and TBS weren't interested and wanted to wash their hands of wrestling.

I would feel for Bret Hart but because of his defacto death of the Montreal Screwjob really makes it hard to feel sympathy for the guy. Vince should’ve let him walk in 96. Hart was used poorly in WCW but what could or anyone expect when Bret Hart talked nothing but shit about the main star in Hogan and the fan favorite in Flair. I agree with all of those that said part of him died than night in Montreal. I just don’t get it, wrestlers get screwed by promoters all the time but never did they just lose all passion for the sport.

 

[UVA_Guy81]

I would feel for Bret Hart but because of his defacto death of the Montreal Screwjob really makes it hard to feel sympathy for the guy. Vince should’ve let him walk in 96. Hart was used poorly in WCW but what could or anyone expect when Bret Hart talked nothing but shit about the main star in Hogan and the fan favorite in Flair. I agree with all of those that said part of him died than night in Montreal. I just don’t get it, wrestlers get screwed by promoters all the time but never did they just lose all passion for the sport.

Agreed, if Bret wanted to leave in 96, he should've let him. But I feel like Vince really didn't have a lot of top guys built up to the main event level at that point so he still needed Bret. While I don't feel sorry for him in the fact that he was earning a lot there in WCW, I do in the fact that if he was still around the WWF in 99, he could've possibly prevented Owen's death by using his stroke to make sure Owen didn't do that ridiculous stunt.
As for the screwjob, he probably felt betrayed at the time because he probably saw Vince as family. So when someone you care about screws you over, you're probably going to hold onto a lot of resentment for that person a lot longer than for someone you don't really know or care much about.

 

[The Q]

I would feel for Bret Hart but because of his defacto death of the Montreal Screwjob really makes it hard to feel sympathy for the guy. Vince should’ve let him walk in 96. Hart was used poorly in WCW but what could or anyone expect when Bret Hart talked nothing but shit about the main star in Hogan and the fan favorite in Flair. I agree with all of those that said part of him died than night in Montreal. I just don’t get it, wrestlers get screwed by promoters all the time but never did they just lose all passion for the sport.

Agreed, if Bret wanted to leave in 96, he should've let him. But I feel like Vince really didn't have a lot of top guys built up to the main event level at that point so he still needed Bret. While I don't feel sorry for him in the fact that he was earning a lot there in WCW, I do in the fact that if he was still around the WWF in 99, he could've possibly prevented Owen's death by using his stroke to make sure Owen didn't do that ridiculous stunt.
As for the screwjob, he probably felt betrayed at the time because he probably saw Vince as family. So when someone you care about screws you over, you're probably going to hold onto a lot of resentment for that person a lot longer than for someone you don't really know or care much about.

yeah, it was on tape. We have the evidence that Vince 100% screwed Bret. It was a brutal betrayal.

Vince didnt want to lose his top star to wcw after already losing 3/5 of the kliq.

Bret could made anyone look good in the ring and a tell a great story with anyone. There’s a reason he was voted wrestler of the decade even with the wcw run of the late 90s.

 

[wazzu31]

yeah, it was on tape. We have the evidence that Vince 100% screwed Bret. It was a brutal betrayal.

Vince didnt want to lose his top star to wcw after already losing 3/5 of the kliq.

Bret could made anyone look good in the ring and a tell a great story with anyone. There’s a reason he was voted wrestler of the decade even with the wcw run of the late 90s.

How was it a brutal betrayal though? He is an employee, he was asked to do something and refused. Definitely a shitty thing to do, but every single person in Vince McMahon’s position would’ve done the same exact thing.

I don’t necessarily think Vince offered the contract just to keep him away from WCW. There was a shit load of money to be made in a Bret vs Shawn rematch. But once they had their fight, Bret’s value dropped because there was no role for him. The best thing that happened to the WWE was Bret got screwed and Shawn got hurt at the Royal Rumble and was gone after Mania. With Bret and Shawn on the roster, IMO the attitude era doesn’t take off the way it did.

 

[The Q]

How was it a brutal betrayal though? He is an employee, he was asked to do something and refused. Definitely a shitty thing to do, but every single person in Vince McMahon’s position would’ve done the same exact thing.

I don’t necessarily think Vince offered the contract just to keep him away from WCW. There was a shit load of money to be made in a Bret vs Shawn rematch. But once they had their fight, Bret’s value dropped because there was no role for him. The best thing that happened to the WWE was Bret got screwed and Shawn got hurt at the Royal Rumble and was gone after Mania. With Bret and Shawn on the roster, IMO the attitude era doesn’t take off the way it did.

it was in his contract to have creative control.

wwe clearly violated that after clearly agreeing the an ending. Again, it was on tape. We have the proof.

 

[wazzu31]

it was in his contract to have creative control.

wwe clearly violated that after clearly agreeing the an ending. Again, it was on tape. We have the proof.

He had reasonable creative control for the last 90 days of his contract. If WWE clearly violated his contract then why didn’t Bret Hart win a lawsuit? It happened in Canada and Canadien law supersedes American law of making all lawsuits be moved to Connecticut. Much like the Owen case when WWF lost their lawsuit against Martha on moving the case from Kansas City.

If I were Bret I would feel betrayed. But Boss asked him to do renegotiate his deal somewhere after Summerslam when it was obvious he had no place in the direction the WWF was going. Bret said no, then he asked him to lose the belt, he said no. The screwjob was a shitty thing for Vince to do, but Bret isn’t some victim and it sure as heck shouldn’t have ruined his life the way it did.

 

[The Q]

He had reasonable creative control for the last 90 days of his contract. If WWE clearly violated his contract then why didn’t Bret Hart win a lawsuit? It happened in Canada and Canadien law supersedes American law of making all lawsuits be moved to Connecticut. Much like the Owen case when WWF lost their lawsuit against Martha on moving the case from Kansas City.

If I were Bret I would feel betrayed. But Boss asked him to do renegotiate his deal somewhere after Summerslam when it was obvious he had no place in the direction the WWF was going. Bret said no, then he asked him to lose the belt, he said no. The screwjob was a shitty thing for Vince to do, but Bret isn’t some victim and it sure as heck shouldn’t have ruined his life the way it did.

bret offered to drop the belt the very next night. He didn’t have to show up to wcw for weeks.

he was more than reasonable.

Vince screwed Bret

 

[wazzu31]

Agreed, if Bret wanted to leave in 96, he should've let him. But I feel like Vince really didn't have a lot of top guys built up to the main event level at that point so he still needed Bret. While I don't feel sorry for him in the fact that he was earning a lot there in WCW, I do in the fact that if he was still around the WWF in 99, he could've possibly prevented Owen's death by using his stroke to make sure Owen didn't do that ridiculous stunt.
As for the screwjob, he probably felt betrayed at the time because he probably saw Vince as family. So when someone you care about screws you over, you're probably going to hold onto a lot of resentment for that person a lot longer than for someone you don't really know or care much about.

I just don’t see it at Vince signed Bret because he didn’t want him going to WCW. Might have a small part of it, but the way Wrestlemania 12 ended it put a money storyline for a return match. Then all Bret’s shit talking in the summer of 96 when he wasn’t under contract all were leading to money PPV’s. Vince shouldn’t have done a 20 year contract (but to be fair, I don’t think when Vince negotiated it he was thinking it was 20 years of wrestling the way Bret thinks it was), but from Bret’s own mouth it wasn’t anywhere the money WCW offered. Bret was the only guy that could’ve gotten Austin over to the point he was, and someone who could turn DX into what it became.

The Owen thing you might be correct, but who really knows. I personally think Bret would’ve been ok with Owen doing it if he were still in the company because it was a good story for Owen to be on his own (IMO). I think a lot wrestlers look back on it with hindsight and say they wouldn’t have done it just like all the refs use to say no way they would’ve done what Hebner did. At the time, there wasn’t anything that would’ve led to someone thinking that stunt would have led to death. It was really shocking WCW legal though still allowed Sting to do it after Owen’s death.

 

[UVA_Guy81]

He had reasonable creative control for the last 90 days of his contract. If WWE clearly violated his contract then why didn’t Bret Hart win a lawsuit? It happened in Canada and Canadien law supersedes American law of making all lawsuits be moved to Connecticut. Much like the Owen case when WWF lost their lawsuit against Martha on moving the case from Kansas City.

If I were Bret I would feel betrayed. But Boss asked him to do renegotiate his deal somewhere after Summerslam when it was obvious he had no place in the direction the WWF was going. Bret said no, then he asked him to lose the belt, he said no. The screwjob was a shitty thing for Vince to do, but Bret isn’t some victim and it sure as heck shouldn’t have ruined his life the way it did.

Only things he really said no to was losing it to Shawn and in Canada. He was willing to do the job to anyone else but Shawn was a doped up, ungrateful asshole at that point in time, so he wanted nothing to do to losing to him.

 

[wazzu31]

bret offered to drop the belt the very next night. He didn’t have to show up to wcw for weeks.

he was more than reasonable.

Vince screwed Bret

Vince screwed Bret, I am not debating that. But what does Bret saying he would forfeit the belt the next night have to do with anything? You cannot be serious when you say he was being reasonable. In every shoot interview ever done on the subject Bret said he would drop it the night before in Detroit to Austin but then changed his mind because he wanted to be champ in Montreal because he was advertised as champ. No one should blame him for not being reasonable though because the hatred between him and Shawn.

 

[The Q]

I just don’t see it at Vince signed Bret because he didn’t want him going to WCW. Might have a small part of it, but the way Wrestlemania 12 ended it put a money storyline for a return match. Then all Bret’s shit talking in the summer of 96 when he wasn’t under contract all were leading to money PPV’s. Vince shouldn’t have done a 20 year contract (but to be fair, I don’t think when Vince negotiated it he was thinking it was 20 years of wrestling the way Bret thinks it was), but from Bret’s own mouth it wasn’t anywhere the money WCW offered. Bret was the only guy that could’ve gotten Austin over to the point he was, and someone who could turn DX into what it became.

The Owen thing you might be correct, but who really knows. I personally think Bret would’ve been ok with Owen doing it if he were still in the company because it was a good story for Owen to be on his own (IMO). I think a lot wrestlers look back on it with hindsight and say they wouldn’t have done it just like all the refs use to say no way they would’ve done what Hebner did. At the time, there wasn’t anything that would’ve led to someone thinking that stunt would have led to death. It was really shocking WCW legal though still allowed Sting to do it after Owen’s death.

it wasnt 20 years of wrestling. It included post in-ring career stuff as well.

 

[The Q]

Vince screwed Bret, I am not debating that. But what does Bret saying he would forfeit the belt the next night have to do with anything? You cannot be serious when you say he was being reasonable. In every shoot interview ever done on the subject Bret said he would drop it the night before in Detroit to Austin but then changed his mind because he wanted to be champ in Montreal because he was advertised as champ. No one should blame him for not being reasonable though because the hatred between him and Shawn.

Offering to drop it the next night on raw was more than reasonable.