Looking back at WCW

[UVA_Guy81]

Vince was massively on the ropes 95-97 and had Turner been more involved he could’ve strong armed the pay per view companies the way Vince did to Crockett though. Bischoff did great things for WCW but nearly all of his bad ideas or judgements wouldn’t have happened if Ted were involved, hell Ted didn’t even hire Bischoff. IMO Ted Turner was the biggest mistake, if you are the only yes vote on an asset, you have to treat that asset as though it is your baby. (Even during the Bischoff years) Don’t allow people who hate it have final say.

Ted Turner was the only one who wanted WCW while the other executives were too busy worrying about their own standing with the two historic mergers that happened. Who knows if Bischoff was a good or bad leader, but he wasn’t Vince McMahon and have final say.

Though, I do blame Bischoff for how crappy the wrestling product is to watch right now because he put all the cruiser weights on first on his Nitros, PPV’s and Thunders and that was as late as most of the modern wrestlers could stay up on school nights. The cruiser weights had no story and just high spot after high spot.

Better yet, if Ted were involved all the way back in 91, he wouldn't have let that idiot Jim Herd run off one of the cornerstones of the promotion, Ric Flair. The thing with Bischoff is is that yes, he did have a formula that worked for a good couple of years, which was put the cruiserweights and non-established guys on in the first half and then put your more recognizable names on in the 2nd half. The problem though is that it was extremely rare for anyone that was usually on in the first hour-hour and a half to break through that glass ceiling to even sniff a main event program.
Even if Ted had the final say in everything, I think he still would've let Eric go on the massive spending spree that he did. I'm sure Turner would've done whatever it took to take out Vince.
Like I said, Turner was never going to be the one to cancel WCW, since it was the cornerstone of TBS. I just think that all the exec's at AOL Time-Warner just saw WCW as a moneypit at the end of it's run and it was (and I believe still is) hard to sell advertising on wrestling since companies frown upon that demographic. Those two things and wanting to take the network in a different direction, there was no chance for survival. Which is why Eric and Fuscient media was unfortunately able to save WCW.
I think Bischoff is to blame for the oversaturation of PPV's. Whether it would've gone that way regardless, I don't know. But I think the model of having 4-5 a year where you can actually build up to matches that people actually want to pay for is best.

 

[The Q]

Combine this with the fact it was exact same night as the Finger Poke of Doom.

Pretty much ended my viewing of WCW.

And I was an 80s guy who had preferred Crockett Promotions to Vince.

I’m bafffled the foley thing backfired.
He was always meh. A wcw nobody.

but yeah the finger poke of doom sounded great in theory.

but after like 8 months of build, that was what did them in imo

 

[RobToxin]

In defense of Jim Herd (just hear me out....):

If you are in a highly important baseball game, you are in the eighth inning, up 3-2 and you bring in your utility outfielder to pitch and he gets shelled for five runs. Is it his fault for stinking on the mound? Or is it your fault for putting him in a position he had no business being in?

The entire disaster that was the Jim Herd Era is solely the fault of Ted Turner for putting a man who knew nothing about wrestling in charge of a wrestling company.

 

[returnofjakedog]

I still don't get all of the hate on the Fingerpoke of Doom persay.

I understand it was abrupt and disrespectful, but these guys were heels! They are SUPPOSED to do complete asshole, disrespectful stuff. (I totally get why people didn't like it and were upset though).

To me the Fingerpoke itself wasn't the problem. I've literally seen or read about dozens of times in history that heels shit on belts. It is textbook heelish behaviour. But I also do understand it has to be handled very carefully, and WCW obviously didn't.
IMO, it was the lead up and aftermath of the situation that was more of an issue. If they were smart (well, then they probably wouldn't have done it in the first place) they would have had Hogan and Nash get their comeuppance in the next couple of months. But the top NWO refused to job to basically anyone.

Because of that I would say overloading the NWO and Hogan's creative control clause were the two biggest issues. Just my opinion.

This has already been extensively discussed in detail in another thread here.

 

[The Q]

I still don't get all of the hate on the Fingerpoke of Doom persay.

I understand it was abrupt and disrespectful, but these guys were heels! They are SUPPOSED to do complete asshole, disrespectful stuff. (I totally get why people didn't like it and were upset though).

To me the Fingerpoke itself wasn't the problem. I've literally seen or read about dozens of times in history that heels shit on belts. It is textbook heelish behaviour. But I also do understand it has to be handled very carefully, and WCW obviously didn't.
IMO, it was the aftermath of the situation that was more of an issue. If they were smart (well, then they probably wouldn't have done it in the first place) they would have had Hogan and Nash get their comeuppance in the next couple of months. But the top NWO refused to job to basically anyone.

Because of that I would say overloading the NWO and Hogan's creative control clause were the two biggest issues. Just my opinion.

This has already been extensively discussed in detail in another thread here.

you are right that no payoff really hurt them.

just like starrcade 97 left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

I just think they took too long to do that. By then people were invested in Nash/hogan.

I didn’t hate it. It was definitely better Storytelling than mick foley winning dirty over the rock. But I get why people felt cheated over it

 

[UVA_Guy81]

you are right that no payoff really hurt them.

just like starrcade 97 left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

I just think they took too long to do that. By then people were invested in Nash/hogan.

I didn’t hate it. It was definitely better Storytelling than mick foley winning dirty over the rock. But I get why people felt cheated over it

Starrcade left a bad taste in everyone's mouth for good reason. It was their biggest PPV of the year and a lot of heels went over when the faces should've won the majority of the matches. Nash got pouty because he didn't want to do a job to The Giant, so he no-showed and we all know how they botched the main event. That show should've started the permanent dissolving of the nWo.

I still don't get all of the hate on the Fingerpoke of Doom persay.

I understand it was abrupt and disrespectful, but these guys were heels! They are SUPPOSED to do complete asshole, disrespectful stuff. (I totally get why people didn't like it and were upset though).

To me the Fingerpoke itself wasn't the problem. I've literally seen or read about dozens of times in history that heels shit on belts. It is textbook heelish behaviour. But I also do understand it has to be handled very carefully, and WCW obviously didn't.
IMO, it was the lead up and aftermath of the situation that was more of an issue. If they were smart (well, then they probably wouldn't have done it in the first place) they would have had Hogan and Nash get their comeuppance in the next couple of months. But the top NWO refused to job to basically anyone.

Because of that I would say overloading the NWO and Hogan's creative control clause were the two biggest issues. Just my opinion.

This has already been extensively discussed in detail in another thread here.

I also think that part of the reason that people shit on it was that stupid Goldberg storyline that went on throughout that night with Liz. They wanted to see Goldberg in the main event against Nash and didn't get it. When you have over 40,000 people I believe (feel free to correct me if that's wrong) in the Georgia Dome wanting that match and you provide a screwjob finish, it's going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

In defense of Jim Herd (just hear me out....):

If you are in a highly important baseball game, you are in the eighth inning, up 3-2 and you bring in your utility outfielder to pitch and he gets shelled for five runs. Is it his fault for stinking on the mound? Or is it your fault for putting him in a position he had no business being in?

The entire disaster that was the Jim Herd Era is solely the fault of Ted Turner for putting a man who knew nothing about wrestling in charge of a wrestling company.

Turner for sure didn't know the first thing on how to run a wrestling company. There needed to be that one person that always made the final decisions and I remember reading in some of the books of the wrestlers that were there at certain points all saying that there really wasn't any definitive person in charge. In WWE and AEW, they have that person. But Herd was probably the dumbest of them all, wanting Hunchback wrestlers (because the Ding Dongs worked out so well) and Ric Flair as Spartacus.

 

[RobToxin]

Vince was always going to beat Ted Turner because, in the end, WWF/E was Vince's baby while WCW was just one of many Ted Turner toys.

When Vince went outside of where he belonged (WBF/XFL), we saw how well that turned out.

Turner was great at what he did. Running a cable company. Alas, he was complete shit at owning a wrestling company.

 

[The Q]

Vince was always going to beat Ted Turner because, in the end, WWF/E was Vince's baby while WCW was just one of many Ted Turner toys.

When Vince went outside of where he belonged (WBF/XFL), we saw how well that turned out.

Turner was great at what he did. Running a cable company. Alas, he was complete shit at owning a wrestling company.

and yet stumbled ass backwards into surviving.

95-97 Vince was very much on the ropes and really got lucky. Without the curtain call and Vince not able to afford Bret an Thus doing the absolute wrong thing (that they leaned into and it worked) we are still probably watching nitro

 

[Sparhawk]

I’m bafffled the foley thing backfired.
He was always meh. A wcw nobody.

but yeah the finger poke of doom sounded great in theory.

but after like 8 months of build, that was what did them in imo

I've always felt that while Foley wasn't the strongest, most athletic, most technical wrestler, he had a tremendous awareness for the business, respect for the business, and an undeniable charisma as a lovable loser.

He got his just reward for those Hell in the Cell bumps.

IMHO, WCW's greatest contribution was the NWO.
Perfect timing and had the WWF/E on their heels.

Ironically, the NWO might also be their downfall as it essentially kick-started the WWF/E on their Attitude Era and basically ended the competition.

 

[RobToxin]

and yet stumbled ass backwards into surviving.

95-97 Vince was very much on the ropes and really got lucky. Without the curtain call and Vince not able to afford Bret an Thus doing the absolute wrong thing (that they leaned into and it worked) we are still probably watching nitro

Actually, we might have been left with just ECW.

At the end of the day, Vince did not put WCW out of business. Time Warner did. No matter what, once the AOL/Time Warner merger happened, WCW was done. The Time Warner people hated wrestling and were hell-bent on getting rid of it, no matter what.

 

[The Q]

Actually, we might have been left with just ECW.

At the end of the day, Vince did not put WCW out of business. Time Warner did. No matter what, once the AOL/Time Warner merger happened, WCW was done. The Time Warner people hated wrestling and were hell-bent on getting rid of it, no matter what.

Fair point there on the merger.

god what would pro wrestling look like now if Vince didn’t screw Bret and Austin 316 never existed?

 

[UVA_Guy81]

Fair point there on the merger.

god what would pro wrestling look like now if Vince didn’t screw Bret and Austin 316 never existed?

Well, Rock or Cena wouldn’t have come anywhere close to reaching the popularity that they have now.
I feel like there would’ve been some promotion that popped up out of the aftermath but doubt that any would’ve reached the numbers of what both WCW and WWF did during that era.

 

[UVA_Guy81]

Speaking of WCW: Bears legend McMichael reveals ALS diagnosis
Damn, that sucks.

 

[The Q]

Speaking of WCW: Bears legend McMichael reveals ALS diagnosis
Damn, that sucks.

yea, yes it does.

 

[wazzu31]

Better yet, if Ted were involved all the way back in 91, he wouldn't have let that idiot Jim Herd run off one of the cornerstones of the promotion, Ric Flair. The thing with Bischoff is is that yes, he did have a formula that worked for a good couple of years, which was put the cruiserweights and non-established guys on in the first half and then put your more recognizable names on in the 2nd half. The problem though is that it was extremely rare for anyone that was usually on in the first hour-hour and a half to break through that glass ceiling to even sniff a main event program.
Even if Ted had the final say in everything, I think he still would've let Eric go on the massive spending spree that he did. I'm sure Turner would've done whatever it took to take out Vince.
Like I said, Turner was never going to be the one to cancel WCW, since it was the cornerstone of TBS. I just think that all the exec's at AOL Time-Warner just saw WCW as a moneypit at the end of it's run and it was (and I believe still is) hard to sell advertising on wrestling since companies frown upon that demographic. Those two things and wanting to take the network in a different direction, there was no chance for survival. Which is why Eric and Fuscient media was unfortunately able to save WCW.
I think Bischoff is to blame for the oversaturation of PPV's. Whether it would've gone that way regardless, I don't know. But I think the model of having 4-5 a year where you can actually build up to matches that people actually want to pay for is best.

I don’t disagree with it really anything of this. Eric kinda killed the PPV model. I am not trying to say he isn’t responsible at all. I just think Ted Turner is 90% responsible because he purchased it when no one wanted it. I know he was big into buying content but he always purchased libraries or content that isn’t currently a product. Fought tooth and nail for WCW, got it, then the way it seems was he never fought again for it. Which they needed him badly to fight when Eric Bischoff gained two news bosses that hated wrestling two in the president of TNT and TBS.

This next one is a half joke. But Bischoff is responsible for what we see in the ring now because he put cruiser weights on before most of the modern wrestlers had to go to bed. But on a serious note the cruiser weights while a great idea on paper, turned out to be an issue that took them down because a guys were upset and started looking on ways to leave before they broke out of that division. It pigeon holed guys who could be the next level guys. You had the cruiser weights, the old guys, some jobbers in the middle. Goldberg eventually but he is a once in a generation guy where he can get so over when he didn’t do anything. Plus it was weird after he won the belt he went back to beating on jobbers.
With the philosophy and talent roster, it wasn’t ever going to be a sustainable promotion. The companies went in a different direction. Outside of the top stars, there wasn’t real story nor psychology but great . The WWF went with just story and psychology but not very good wrestling.

 

[UVA_Guy81]

I don’t disagree with it really anything of this. Eric kinda killed the PPV model. I am not trying to say he isn’t responsible at all. I just think Ted Turner is 90% responsible because he purchased it when no one wanted it. I know he was big into buying content but he always purchased libraries or content that isn’t currently a product. Fought tooth and nail for WCW, got it, then the way it seems was he never fought again for it. Which they needed him badly to fight when Eric Bischoff gained two news bosses that hated wrestling two in the president of TNT and TBS.

This next one is a half joke. But Bischoff is responsible for what we see in the ring now because he put cruiser weights on before most of the modern wrestlers had to go to bed. But on a serious note the cruiser weights while a great idea on paper, turned out to be an issue that took them down because a guys were upset and started looking on ways to leave before they broke out of that division. It pigeon holed guys who could be the next level guys. You had the cruiser weights, the old guys, some jobbers in the middle. Goldberg eventually but he is a once in a generation guy where he can get so over when he didn’t do anything. Plus it was weird after he won the belt he went back to beating on jobbers.
With the philosophy and talent roster, it wasn’t ever going to be a sustainable promotion. The companies went in a different direction. Outside of the top stars, there wasn’t real story nor psychology but great . The WWF went with just story and psychology but not very good wrestling.

But at that point, how much power did Turner even have? Once the merger happened, didn't he give up the majority of his power within AOL-Time Warner? Even if he had tried, I doubt that they would've listened to him since I figure they didn't want to be known as a wrestling network and more of a legit cable network with shows.
WWF definitely went more with personalities during that era but a lot of those guys were able to have solid matches still. They had two once in a lifetime type talents at the same time with Austin and The Rock, so nobody could blame them for that. The wrestler I feel that got the bad end of everything was Bret Hart. He was the catalyst for the Austin-McMahon feud that drove WWF to probably it's best business it's ever done and then when he got to WCW, he came in right at their peak, had a lousy run because WCW didn't have a clue on how to use him and his in ring career ended with a whimper and a sad way for a guy as talented as he was to go out.
If they were to have survived, they would've needed to gut a lot of the older guys on that roster. There were way too many old guys making way more than they deserved at that point. Start fresh like they were at least looking like they were trying to there during the last six months or so during it's existence. And of course, they would've needed another network to air on since TNT and TBS weren't interested and wanted to wash their hands of wrestling.

 

[RaZon]

The best of times WWF vs WCW, it got no better,

But, when it ended what Vince did to Dusty Rhodes was just wrong, poka dots, really?

 

[UVA_Guy81]

The best of times WWF vs WCW, it got no better,

But, when it ended what Vince did to Dusty Rhodes was just wrong, poka dots, really?

And I’m sure Vince was angry that Dusty made it work and the crowds still loved him. Kind of like when Paul Burchill had that Jack Sparrow pirate gimmick that wasn’t supposed to really be anything but the crowd was loving it, so of course, it went away quickly.

 

[The Q]

I don’t disagree with it really anything of this. Eric kinda killed the PPV model. I am not trying to say he isn’t responsible at all. I just think Ted Turner is 90% responsible because he purchased it when no one wanted it. I know he was big into buying content but he always purchased libraries or content that isn’t currently a product. Fought tooth and nail for WCW, got it, then the way it seems was he never fought again for it. Which they needed him badly to fight when Eric Bischoff gained two news bosses that hated wrestling two in the president of TNT and TBS.

This next one is a half joke. But Bischoff is responsible for what we see in the ring now because he put cruiser weights on before most of the modern wrestlers had to go to bed. But on a serious note the cruiser weights while a great idea on paper, turned out to be an issue that took them down because a guys were upset and started looking on ways to leave before they broke out of that division. It pigeon holed guys who could be the next level guys. You had the cruiser weights, the old guys, some jobbers in the middle. Goldberg eventually but he is a once in a generation guy where he can get so over when he didn’t do anything. Plus it was weird after he won the belt he went back to beating on jobbers.
With the philosophy and talent roster, it wasn’t ever going to be a sustainable promotion. The companies went in a different direction. Outside of the top stars, there wasn’t real story nor psychology but great . The WWF went with just story and psychology but not very good wrestling.

it was great.

cruisweights should not be facing heavyweights

 

[Judge Fudge]

I still don't get all of the hate on the Fingerpoke of Doom persay.

I understand it was abrupt and disrespectful, but these guys were heels! They are SUPPOSED to do complete asshole, disrespectful stuff. (I totally get why people didn't like it and were upset though).

To me the Fingerpoke itself wasn't the problem. I've literally seen or read about dozens of times in history that heels shit on belts. It is textbook heelish behaviour. But I also do understand it has to be handled very carefully, and WCW obviously didn't.
IMO, it was the lead up and aftermath of the situation that was more of an issue. If they were smart (well, then they probably wouldn't have done it in the first place) they would have had Hogan and Nash get their comeuppance in the next couple of months. But the top NWO refused to job to basically anyone.

Because of that I would say overloading the NWO and Hogan's creative control clause were the two biggest issues. Just my opinion.

This has already been extensively discussed in detail in another thread here.

I get that these were heels but IMHO, and WCW didn't learn from this mistake, Your destroying the legacy and the prestige of your main belt.

With that being said. I don't know if it is my autism or just the way I see things but I do have a tendency to see past what is going on...

I use this sometimes in my mind...


I don't focus on the goal. I recognize the song that is playing in the background... Canucks goal song from late 2000's- mid 2010's