Lets recap...

[Likewall32]

Ahh, my favorite subject to bring up, the ones that gets the board fired up and gets mostly everyone on here to call me an idiot that doesnt know shit. Lets recap the additions & subtracts of San Jose this year from the offseason & recent ones. You know, the ones that people on the board said made THIS "the best roster san jose has ever had"

Brent Burns 66 10 21 31, who SJ wanted instead of
Ian White 65 7 23 30, and gave up
Devin Setoguchi 55 17 13 30 to get him (plus the future)
hmmm, Burns & Whites numbers are the same and SJ gave up and extra 30pts, a 1st rounder & top prospect to get them. A++++ Trade, 31pts>>>60pts (-29pts)

Martin Havlat 26 2 13 15 who SJ gave up
Dany Heatley 68 20 26 46 to get to cut payroll, which they didnt do anything with. I called injury as soon as the trade was made, and Havlet didnt disapoint by falling over the boards & being put out the rest of the season. Another wise move to improve the team, I mean, they saved how many millions, and got a guy built like a sherman tank. Another A+++ trade by the D man15pts 26gms>>>46pts 68gms (-31pts)

Kyle Wellwood 67 15 25 40, who SJ let walk, bascially replaced with
Michal Handzus 63 7 16 23 cause Kyle actually scored when they brought him in. Scoring on the 3rd line? Are you nuts? Thats NOT suppose to happen. Handzuz has been lights out all season. Close canidate for team MVP. 23pts>>>>40pts (-17pts)

Jamie McGinn 6 4 2 6 was doing the untolerable, scoring on the low lines. Again, THAT IS NOT HOCKEY!! Get that shit outa here along with the other remaining top prospects SJ has and bring in these studs
TJ Galiardi 5 0 0 0
Daniel Winnik 6 0 1 1 now thats more like it!! Is DWil a cousin of Einstien? 1pt or 2 guys>>>>>> 6pts for 1 guy & top prospect (-5pts)

Dominic Moore 8 0 2 2 this guy doesnt have a body to compare with yet
2nd rnd pick 0 0 0 0 Wait, could it finally be? 2pts>>>0pts (+2pts!!)

I can really agree with this being the best SJ roster to ever suit up. I mean, how can you disagree? The new guys have scored 52 less points then the old guys, thats impressive improvement The whole upper management staff & coaching staff really deserves our praises for this incredible team they have put on the ice for us this year!! And lets not forget about Terry Sawchuk, I mean Antti Niemi, how is quickly leading SJ to another pacific division championship & #1 seed in the west. Goalies like this come around once a generation, thankfully Wilson had the insight to snatch him up when he did. Who knows, SJ might be in like 9th place if we didnt have him back their being lights outs!

LMAO, enjoy

 

[potzer25]

 

[Likewall32]

Dont let Doug see that violin, he might trade it for a picture of a gibson thinking its a hell of a deal.

 

[MacJ88]

+ Reps for you Wall. Hilarious and accurate!

 

[CJdublé]

Not saying I disagree, but this isn't what I would call a fair comparison, we don't know how all those players would have done with the sharks/if they would have signed with us for the same $ as their current team.

 

[Cbrower91]

yeah id like to see wellwood put up those numbers anywhere besides winterpig, because he wouldnt. because on no other team would he be logging top 6 minutes in the league

 

[Cmon_WTF]

How have those trades treated the Wild? Well, lets see, they are on pace to fall short of their point total from last year and they are on pace to score even fewer goals. <---Is that even possible? If Heatley and Seto failed to improve a team with tons of room to improve like the Wild what makes you think they would have made a difference in San Jose?

White is paired with arguably the best dman ever to play the game and is getting top PP minutes. He wouldn't have got that in San Jose. His point production with the Sharks wouldn't be half what it is in Detroit and certainly nothing close to what Burns is producing in that role.

I would have liked to see a better usage of the cap difference between Havlat and Heatley as well.

Wellwood had 13pts in 35 games (.371 pts per game) and Handzus has 23pts in 63 games (.365 pts per game) What they are scoring at almost exactly the same pace? That can't be true cause Wellwood produced when he came to San Jose.

The McGinn-Handzus 3rd line was being put on the ice against other teams 3rd and 4th lines in attempts to get them better offensive chances and to limit chances against as McGinn is poor defensively and Handzus fell off the map in that regard. Now the 3rd line is primairly defense oriented and assists the offense in other ways, namely providing offensive zone position for the top two lines. Compairing points between the two is quite misleading because of the change in roles. The reason for the change in roles for the 3rd line? No clue honestly unless McLellan and Wilson weren't comfortable matching top lines against one another full time and wanted another option.

Niemi played much better last year. I don't know what's going on with him but I could underhand toss a puck to him and he'd give up a rebound this year. Scratch that. And give up a bad rebound...

As I said at the start of the season this team has the most talent the Sharks have ever iced. But at the same time the amount of turnover on the roster is a cause for concern as will be Havlat's health. I still stand by that statement.

 

[Likewall32]

How have those trades treated the Wild? Well, lets see, they are on pace to fall short of their point total from last year and they are on pace to score even fewer goals. <---Is that even possible? If Heatley and Seto failed to improve a team with tons of room to improve like the Wild what makes you think they would have made a difference in San Jose?<<<

Because the added points that the sharks lost by not having them would equal more goals, chances and therefore win. No matter what equasion you throw at it, heatley in the line and his 25-30 goals is better then an injuried guy that hasnt played majority of the season. Same goes for Setoguchi, his numbers were erased and not replaced by anyone. Those etra points generate wins.

>>>White is paired with arguably the best dman ever to play the game and is getting top PP minutes. He wouldn't have got that in San Jose. His point production with the Sharks wouldn't be half what it is in Detroit and certainly nothing close to what Burns is producing in that role.<<<

You cannot say that without ANY certainty. Let alone say they wouldnt be HALF what they are. Come on man


>>>Wellwood had 13pts in 35 games (.371 pts per game) and Handzus has 23pts in 63 games (.365 pts per game) What they are scoring at almost exactly the same pace? That can't be true cause Wellwood produced when he came to San Jose.<<<

You also cannot compare LAST years Wellwood numbers with THIS years Handzus numbers. We are looking at this year production.


>>>Niemi played much better last year. I don't know what's going on with him but I could underhand toss a puck to him and he'd give up a rebound this year. Scratch that. And give up a bad rebound...<<<

Niemi has & always will be a bad rebound goalie and he will always be average at best. The same people that had "Niemi is GOD" blinders on when SJ first got him seem to be the people calling for his head now which I find pretty funny. THIS is the real goalie, the goalie I always said he was, the goalie I always saw him as. People just didnt see it before because SJ could actually score goals last year, so he got more wins then he should. He went on good streak last year and thats all it was, a streak. Every goalie goes on one every now and then, it doesnt make them good tho.

>>As I said at the start of the season this team has the most talent the Sharks have ever iced. But at the same time the amount of turnover on the roster is a cause for concern as will be Havlat's health. I still stand by that statement.

Thats cool that you stand by that statment. But i fail to see how the best team SJ ever had could miss the playoffs for the first time in years. And its not cause everyone around them got better, its cause they blow. The pacific used to be a top 2 division and SJ would always take the title. This year its the weakest in the NHL and SJ should easly take it. But the roster blows so bad its not even frustrating, its downright laughable.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

If I can't compare the production of two separate players playing for the same team, under the same coaching staff, with the same system, in simular if not exact same roles, because it's a different year in what world is it justified to compare players on different teams in completely different roles?

 

[SJVP408]

Ahh, my favorite subject to bring up, the ones that gets the board fired up and gets mostly everyone on here to call me an idiot that doesnt know shit. Lets recap the additions & subtracts of San Jose this year from the offseason & recent ones. You know, the ones that people on the board said made THIS "the best roster san jose has ever had"

Brent Burns 66 10 21 31, who SJ wanted instead of
Ian White 65 7 23 30, and gave up
Devin Setoguchi 55 17 13 30 to get him (plus the future)
hmmm, Burns & Whites numbers are the same and SJ gave up and extra 30pts, a 1st rounder & top prospect to get them. A++++ Trade, 31pts>>>60pts (-29pts)

Martin Havlat 26 2 13 15 who SJ gave up
Dany Heatley 68 20 26 46 to get to cut payroll, which they didnt do anything with. I called injury as soon as the trade was made, and Havlet didnt disapoint by falling over the boards & being put out the rest of the season. Another wise move to improve the team, I mean, they saved how many millions, and got a guy built like a sherman tank. Another A+++ trade by the D man15pts 26gms>>>46pts 68gms (-31pts)

Kyle Wellwood 67 15 25 40, who SJ let walk, bascially replaced with
Michal Handzus 63 7 16 23 cause Kyle actually scored when they brought him in. Scoring on the 3rd line? Are you nuts? Thats NOT suppose to happen. Handzuz has been lights out all season. Close canidate for team MVP. 23pts>>>>40pts (-17pts)

Jamie McGinn 6 4 2 6 was doing the untolerable, scoring on the low lines. Again, THAT IS NOT HOCKEY!! Get that shit outa here along with the other remaining top prospects SJ has and bring in these studs
TJ Galiardi 5 0 0 0
Daniel Winnik 6 0 1 1 now thats more like it!! Is DWil a cousin of Einstien? 1pt or 2 guys>>>>>> 6pts for 1 guy & top prospect (-5pts)

Dominic Moore 8 0 2 2 this guy doesnt have a body to compare with yet
2nd rnd pick 0 0 0 0 Wait, could it finally be? 2pts>>>0pts (+2pts!!)

I can really agree with this being the best SJ roster to ever suit up. I mean, how can you disagree? The new guys have scored 52 less points then the old guys, thats impressive improvement The whole upper management staff & coaching staff really deserves our praises for this incredible team they have put on the ice for us this year!! And lets not forget about Terry Sawchuk, I mean Antti Niemi, how is quickly leading SJ to another pacific division championship & #1 seed in the west. Goalies like this come around once a generation, thankfully Wilson had the insight to snatch him up when he did. Who knows, SJ might be in like 9th place if we didnt have him back their being lights outs!

LMAO, enjoy

Ah, the "I told you so post". Even with the poor hockey the team has played over the past 2 months, there's only one move I would take back, knowing how ridiculous that sounds.

I really like Burns and what he does for this team. It took a while for him to grow on me but he's limiting his gaffes and the many times he easily gets the team going from defense to offense is so valuable. That and he adds a physical presence. White was not capable of that and Seto is Seto. Multi goal streak one week, then demoted to 4th line after a cold spell and useless two way game.

I admit it's very easy to point and laugh at the Heater/Havlat trade because of Havlat's injury. I thought he had shaken the glass man reputation due to three consecutive seasons of 73+ games played. However, Heater's floating act was getting tiring. On top of that he did jack squat in the playoffs which was the most disappointing thing. It was a move that got some more speed into the team. If Havlat continues to spend extended time on the IR for any reasons during the next 4 years, I'll say that it was a bad trade. Otherwise, Heater and his $7.5 a year had to go.

The Handzus signing is turning out baaad. I didn't mind the skillset that he was adding to the team, because the team needed PK help, but I hated that it was a two year deal. Now I really hate that it's 2 years.

The deadline moves this year aren't part of the problem either. Sharks were struggling before the moves were made. McGinn wasn't doing anything to help. The big problem with the player roster starts with the top players, not the ones that are new to this season.

There are many wrongs when it goes this poorly for a team that was supposed to contend. The top players seem uninterested on most nights. The coaching is suspect and aren't finding ways to motivate these players. Todd is so passive when it comes to this it seems like he always defers to the team to find motivation for themselves. It's been a problem for years. He should know that they don't have it within themselves. Doug is loyal to these top players and likes to tinker with the roster so much that team cohesiveness from year to year is impossible. What does it say to the team when the GM never thinks the team is good enough? All of this is playing a role in the bad hockey.

 

[Likewall32]

If I can't compare the production of two separate players playing for the same team, under the same coaching staff, with the same system, in simular if not exact same roles, because it's a different year in what world is it justified to compare players on different teams in completely different roles?

Well then by you compairisons whenver someone brings up Heatley vrs Havlet, im just gonna use 1st year in SJ Heatlys numbers, cause hey its the same thing. Who cares bout present day totals when we can just hop in the time machine and compare past numbers with current ones to prove our point. In Cmon WTF standards my point is proven even more:

Heatley 82 39 43 82 >>>>>> Havlat 26 2 13 15
And wow would you look at Nabbys numbers by Cmon standards:
Nabby 44 16 10 1998 0.922 >>>>>> Niemi 25 18 8 1318 0.913 Nabby is jus rippin shit up this year in time machine hockey.

And how bout this one, I cant believe we would let this pt per game guy go for the similar role of Burns...
Brian Campbell 20 3 16 19 >>>> Brent Burns 66 10 21 31

And whyd they get rid of Manny, I mean come on, they were similar roles.
Manny 71 14 19 33 >>>>>> Handzuz 63 7 16 23

Isnt time machine hockey great, you just throw all present day totals out the window and pick their best/worst year in san Jose to make a point

 

[Cmon_WTF]

How have those trades treated the Wild? Well, lets see, they are on pace to fall short of their point total from last year and they are on pace to score even fewer goals. <---Is that even possible? If Heatley and Seto failed to improve a team with tons of room to improve like the Wild what makes you think they would have made a difference in San Jose?

Because the added points that the sharks lost by not having them would equal more goals, chances and therefore win. No matter what equasion you throw at it, heatley in the line and his 25-30 goals is better then an injuried guy that hasnt played majority of the season. Same goes for Setoguchi, his numbers were erased and not replaced by anyone. Those etra points generate wins.

Now factor in the reduced scoring and production of both Thornton and Marleau from having Setoguchi or Heatley on that line instead of Pavelski.

Factor in the reduced production from Pavelski now that he's back to a 3rd liner.

Factor in the reduced production Wellwoods going to have as a 3rd liner with little to no PP time intead of a top six guy with 1st unit pp time.

Wellwood is a C/LW. With Pavs at C that means you need to eliminate all production from McGinn on that 3rd line.

Factor in the increased goals against that is going to be incured by having Heatley and Setoguchi on the roster.

Take all factors into account and run your numbers again.

Wellwood had 13pts in 35 games (.371 pts per game) and Handzus has 23pts in 63 games (.365 pts per game) What they are scoring at almost exactly the same pace? That can't be true cause Wellwood produced when he came to San Jose.

You also cannot compare LAST years Wellwood numbers with THIS years Handzus numbers. We are looking at this year production.

You made the year to year comparison between Wellwood and Handzus in your origional post:

Kyle Wellwood 67 15 25 40, who SJ let walk, bascially replaced with Michal Handzus 63 7 16 23 cause Kyle actually scored when they brought him in. Scoring on the 3rd line? Are you nuts? Thats NOT suppose to happen. Handzuz has been lights out all season. Close canidate for team MVP. 23pts

I highlighted the section in which you compare Handzus's production this year to Wellwood as a Shark LAST YEAR, and I'll quote again, "Kyle actually scored when they brought him in". Wellwood was brought in LAST YEAR correct?

So I ask you, why is .371 ppg last year considered "actually scoring" when .365 ppg this year is sarcasticlly dismissed as nonproduction? .006 ppg difference totals out at a whopping half a point variance over the course of a year.

Niemi played much better last year. I don't know what's going on with him but I could underhand toss a puck to him and he'd give up a rebound this year. Scratch that. And give up a bad rebound...

Niemi has & always will be a bad rebound goalie and he will always be average at best. The same people that had "Niemi is GOD" blinders on when SJ first got him seem to be the people calling for his head now which I find pretty funny. THIS is the real goalie, the goalie I always said he was, the goalie I always saw him as. People just didnt see it before because SJ could actually score goals last year, so he got more wins then he should. He went on good streak last year and thats all it was, a streak. Every goalie goes on one every now and then, it doesnt make them good tho.

The posters on this board gave credit where it was due. Except for a brief stint at the begining of last season Niemi played consistantly well. At 27 he was still young and it was only his 2nd year in the league. People acknowledged that he could still be developing and improving. This year he's been very incosistant and most often hasn't played well and the posters are acknowledging that. You want to consider that as them being fan boys that's your prerogative and you have every right to it. I see it as them just calling it like they see it.

As I said at the start of the season this team has the most talent the Sharks have ever iced. But at the same time the amount of turnover on the roster is a cause for concern as will be Havlat's health. I still stand by that statement.

Thats cool that you stand by that statment. But i fail to see how the best team SJ ever had could miss the playoffs for the first time in years. And its not cause everyone around them got better, its cause they blow. The pacific used to be a top 2 division and SJ would always take the title. This year its the weakest in the NHL and SJ should easly take it. But the roster blows so bad its not even frustrating, its downright laughable.

Having a ton of talent doesn't always equate to wins. The late 90's early 00's Rangers proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. You can have all the talent in the world on a roster but if the coach doesn't impliment a system that works to those players strengths the team will suffer. If those players have to spend a lot of time adapting to the system and new teammates the team will struggle. If the players fail to put forth a full 60 minute effort on a consistant basis the team will fail.

As I said in that 1st sentence talent dosen't necessarily equial wins. That is why at the begining of the year I questioned if the amount of turnover on the roster, Havlat's health, and the competency of the assistant coaches. I felt that all those could have minor to major negitive effect on the teams overall preformance.

 

[Slimpikins]

Likewall, for a guy who has stated here before that he doesn't care what other posters think about him, you sure do spend a lot of time trying to convince us that you are smarter than the rest of us.

 

[23sharks]

This is pretty simple:

I'll take Burns over Seto every day of the week.
Do you really think Ian White would put up those same numbers here? I liked him, but he's not THAT good. You could put just about any decent D-man in the league with Lidstrom and see similar results.
Heatley has been declining year after year, and him being gone is no big deal. Havlat getting hurt has definitely sucked.
Wellwood wouldn't be putting up those numbers here either. I was hoping they'd re-sign him too, but he would not be getting the min that he is getting in Winnipeg.

 

[Likewall32]

Now factor in the reduced scoring and production of both Thornton and Marleau from having Setoguchi or Heatley on that line instead of Pavelski.
Factor in the reduced production from Pavelski now that he's back to a 3rd liner.
Factor in the reduced production Wellwoods going to have as a 3rd liner with little to no PP time intead of a top six guy with 1st unit pp time.
Wellwood is a C/LW. With Pavs at C that means you need to eliminate all production from McGinn on that 3rd line.
Factor in the increased goals against that is going to be incured by having Heatley and Setoguchi on the roster.
Take all factors into account and run your numbers again.

LOL I dont know where you come up with theory that everyones numbers would go down inserting Seto & Heatley & eliminating Burns, its like your making things up just to sound correct. But heres the re-ran numbers of everyones points going down, ala Pavs back to the 3rd, Thorn & Marl going down etc...

Last Year Marleau: 37 36 73
This Year Marleau: 27 26 53
Marleaus numbers are down this year without Seto/Heatley. He will not pass last years numbers by scoring 20pts in 15 games.

Last Year Thornton: 21 49 70
This Year Thornton: 14 48 62
Thornton should pass last years pts if he can get 9pts in 15 games. And he may not pass them, but most likely will. We will see

Last Year Pavelski: 20 46 66
This Year Pavelski: 24 25 49
AND Pavs only played 74 games last year. His numbers are down this year, compared to his "point reduced back to the 3rd line" role. He needs 17pts in 15 games to top last years mark, and he will played more games this year. Reduction you claim? Where? The roster would have remained the name lines as last year

How bout this guy?
Last Year Clowe: 24 38 62
This Year Clowe: 12 24 36
Again, another decline.

Last year the Sharks scored 243 goals, 2.96 per game, without a full season of White or Wellwood. Those numbers wouldve likely gone up with a full year. This year the Sharks have scored 178 goals, 2.51 per game. Thats without Heatley & Seto, who you claim would have only brought Thornton, Marleau & Pavelskis numbers down, even though as pointed out above, it clearly did not. Everyone is below last year cept Thornton, who may or may not finish the same or above. Now add in the numbers of Heatley & Seto and everyones numbers & team scoring goes up.

The team PP this year is 20.0% with the addition of Burns who was suppose to be a great PP QB, another number that is down from last year, which was 23.5% - 2nd in the league, with White not having been there all year. The team PK this year is 78.0% with Handzus, who was suppose to be a great PK guy, again its down from last year, although not much, its still worse then the 79.6%. With the way the PP & PK have been playing, its safe to say that neither of these numbers will trump last years.

You also tell me (along with that false production decline from Pavs/Thorn/Mar) to factor increased goals against that will incure from having Heatley & Seto in the lineup & no burns. And once again, where is it? Where do you see that the GA would go up so much with Heatley/Seto/White in the lineup over NoOne/NoOne/Burns?

Last year the sharks gave up 204 goals (dont think this includes empty netters) which is 2.48 GAA. This year without Heatley & Seto & with Burns SJ has given up 164, a 2.44GAA... OMG those defensive liabilitys are ATROSHISH!! 0.04 more goals given up.. 0.04 more goals given up.

So their are the recrunched numbers you asked for with comparing the Seto/Heatley sharks to the non-Seto/Heatley sharks. You have increased production of every aspect of the team with them except for that 0.04.

Again, I fail to see how you can possibly say this team is better without Heatley & Seto, and the most talented team ever by adding Burns & Havlat.

And in case you are going to respond with Coutures increased production this year without heatley & seto, i feel his numbers wouldve still gone up, because he wouldve continued to improve at the same pase, and had better linemates then he has had this year.

Couture Last Year: 79 32 24 56
Couture This Year: 65 27 26 53

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I know I'm going to regret keeping this discussion going since it's pointless but, Likewall, research Thornton and Marleau's average point production per ice time (PP + ES) with Heatley as opposed to without. In both the 09/10 and 10/11 seasons Marleau and Thornton posted a better point per ice time ratio (PP/ES) without him on the ice than with. The same stat holds true when applied to Setoguchi when factored the 3rd member of the line also isn't Heatley. What reason is there to believe this trend would change?

All stats done through behindthenet along with cross referenced game logs (<-Example) and Ice time Charts (<-Example)

As far as goals against. There isn't a forward on the roster who isn't superior to both Setoguchi and Heatley defensively. So in your example you can fill in your "No One" slots with anyone and it's a defensive upgrade. Last year the team posted a 2.487 GAA with Niemi playing very well. This year the team to this point is posting a 2.441 GAA with Niemi playing like crap. The inconsistancies of the goaltender is a factor that should be considered when judging the overall improvement/decline of the cumulative defensive abilities of the skaters on the team. When comparing the relitive GAA from last year to this the differnce is quite a bit more the the basic GAA stat indicates. Obviously not all of the improved defense comes from the upgrades to Heatley and Setoguchi in the line up as players in other positions have been upgraded as well.

Clowe's suckage this year comes from him reverting to the "Thornton wanna be" style of game that highlighted his low production points of last year. When he started driving the net and working more away from the puck he produced. He did this on a more regular basis last year as opposed to this. He seems content to be primarily a perimiter guy this year for whatever reason.

The PP struggled because both Boyle and Burns are PP QB's and that worked as a detriment to it. IMO Wilson envisioned, as did I, Burns to assume a trigger position ala Rob Blake. Obviously it didn't work out that way and the team reverted to the four forward + Boyle set up as their 1st unit. Since that adjustment was made on Jan 21st the team has gone 20 for 68 on the PP (29.4%) and moved from 17th in the league to 3rd.

It's quite surprising Coutures stats are where they are based on how bad Clowe has been and the rotating cast that has been on his other wing. Couture is the one player (that I researched) that produced better with Heatley than without. Seto didn't spend enough time on the same line as Couture to make a fair assesment. In at least one way Coutures improved production can be attributed to the loss of Heatley and Setoguchi. Couture is now getting substantially more 1st unit PP time. He may not have gotten that if they were still on the team.