Let's be frank: Minnesota got fleeced in the Butler deal

[ducky]

Covington is an OK 3-and-D wing on an unnecessary contract. It's not that he's a bad player by any means, but with four years attached to him, there's going to be better value on the FA market in the coming years. (DeMarre Carroll, for instance, could come extremely cheap this summer, and he's had some very good games lately after beginning the season with injuries.)

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Covington is a great basketball player. He is never going to be a high volume scorer but he is fantastic in every other aspect of the game. It isn't a coincidence that the Wolves have dropped off in the 10 or so games since he has been out.

The Wolves essentially traded Zach Lavine, Kris Dunn and the draft rights of Lauri Markkanen for Covington and Sarik.

I would do that again in a heartbeat especially when you consider the makeup of the Wolves roster.

I like Zach. Good scorer. But it is literally his only skill. He might have gotten better by now....but when he was on the Wolves roster, he was one of the dumbest defenders I have ever seen play on a regular basis. And he doesn't even to try to hide his ineptitude with hustle which is sad.

Long and short, I would MUCH rather have Covington on his contract....then Zach and the other pieces on theirs.

Like it or not those 2 packages are what Butler was worth. Which in neither case add up to Butler's talents. But there are solid reason that Butler isn't drawing trade packages worth his talent from anyone in the NBA. Everyone knows he's an ass only looking to get paid.

 

[ducky]

The question I would like to pose for Minnesota fans (@mr.hockey4242 @Mebert @Nosferatu ) - Would you have rather given the money to LaVine instead of Wiggins? And do you think your team have been any better for it?

BTW. It is laughable how people overrate volume scorers on bad teams.

Put 2 top 20 NBA basketball players in Chicago and Lavine is a complete afterthought.

He can only put up the stats he is putting up if he plays on a losing team. Put him on a good team and he doesn't average 15 points a game. And he sits out most 4th quarters because of his lack of defense.

 

[The Q]

I would take Covington and Saric over Lavine and Dunn. That is before you consider Lavines way over the top contract. It might go slightly against the wolves because of Markkanen.

Your depiction of Covington is way off too, he is a very good defender on a good contract for his value.

No question. Even mark is probably a tad overstated as he’s a negative bpm.

Minny would’ve easily won the deal if they hadn’t taken a 3rd strong center when you had guys who really fit them well like Og and josh hart on the board.

 

[flyerhawk]

Covington is a great asset to have. Elite defender who can shoot 3s and doesn't demand a lot of ball. And he is on a very reasonable contract.

The Wolves could keep Cov or deal him for some very nice assets if they so choose. A team like the Rockets would love to have a player like him.

 

[The Q]

Covington is a great asset to have. Elite defender who can shoot 3s and doesn't demand a lot of ball. And he is on a very reasonable contract.

The Wolves could keep Cov or deal him for some very nice assets if they so choose. A team like the Rockets would love to have a player like him.

You probably get 2 of those firsts for him. Would have to eat someone like knight tho to make salaries match

 

[shopson67]

Covington is a great asset to have. Elite defender who can shoot 3s and doesn't demand a lot of ball. And he is on a very reasonable contract.

The Wolves could keep Cov or deal him for some very nice assets if they so choose. A team like the Rockets would love to have a player like him.

The Rockets would be salivating, lol.

 

[GhostOfPoverty]

You can thank Thibs for getting them into the Butler ordeal in the first place. It was his idea to insert Butler into the Wiggins/Towns based formula the team had and needs to remain committed to building around, and it failed under his watch. Honestly, he should have known better than to think a guy like Butler with a lot of diva tendencies, and also thinks he's a much higher caliber player than he is, was ever going to work out in a small market like Minnesota. Butler simply doesn't have a personality that would allow him to work out in a place like Minnesota long-term, and if it hadn't been the Towns/Wiggins fiasco that caused him to want to get out of there, something else would have.


Either way, it's not surprising that they didn't get equal value back in the Butler trade. They had literally zero leverage in any trades; Butler was forcing his way out, and was free to walk after the season if they had forced him to stay without a trade. So it's pretty obvious they were going to get the short end of the stick. However, they did pass on what seemed to be a much better offer from Miami, which you can chalk up to another bone-headed Thibs move. It's almost like he wanted to get fired. Regardless, they couldn't try keeping Butler around at the expense of throwing in the towel on the Towns/Wiggins plan. They were too deep into that plan the moment they picked up both guys to give up on it this fast.

 

[trojanfan12]

You can thank Thibs for getting them into the Butler ordeal in the first place. It was his idea to insert Butler into the Wiggins/Towns based formula the team had and needs to remain committed to building around, and it failed under his watch. Honestly, he should have known better than to think a guy like Butler with a lot of diva tendencies, and also thinks he's a much higher caliber player than he is, was ever going to work out in a small market like Minnesota. Butler simply doesn't have a personality that would allow him to work out in a place like Minnesota long-term, and if it hadn't been the Towns/Wiggins fiasco that caused him to want to get out of there, something else would have.


Either way, it's not surprising that they didn't get equal value back in the Butler trade. They had literally zero leverage in any trades; Butler was forcing his way out, and was free to walk after the season if they had forced him to stay without a trade. So it's pretty obvious they were going to get the short end of the stick. However, they did pass on what seemed to be a much better offer from Miami, which you can chalk up to another bone-headed Thibs move. It's almost like he wanted to get fired. Regardless, they couldn't try keeping Butler around at the expense of throwing in the towel on the Towns/Wiggins plan. They were too deep into that plan the moment they picked up both guys to give up on it this fast.

To be fair, this isn't all on Butler.

The guy wanted to win and was trying to get the young T-Wolves to care as much as he does and work as hard as he does.

The problem, imo, wasn't in his message, but rather in how he delivered it.

Also, he was their best player, but the T-Wolves chose to pay other big contracts before taking care of him.

I'm not saying Butler handled it correctly, he didn't and he seems to be ruffling some feathers in Philly as well, so some of what happened in Minny is definitely on him.

But, it's not like the T-Wolves are blameless either.

 

[GhostOfPoverty]

To be fair, this isn't all on Butler.

The guy wanted to win and was trying to get the young T-Wolves to care as much as he does and work as hard as he does.

The problem, imo, wasn't in his message, but rather in how he delivered it.

Also, he was their best player, but the T-Wolves chose to pay other big contracts before taking care of him.

I'm not saying Butler handled it correctly, he didn't and he seems to be ruffling some feathers in Philly as well, so some of what happened in Minny is definitely on him.

But, it's not like the T-Wolves are blameless either.

Trust me, I wasn't trying to say it was all on Butler without the Wolves as a franchise being at fault. They've been a dumpster fire in terms management since their inception in 1989. We're talking about the same ownership (who bought the team in '94 or something) who ran their most important player of all time KG both in his prime and in retirement, passed on Kobe, and cost the team three 1st round picks smack in the middle of the KG era by getting busted for trying to secretly break salary cap rules.

Screw this sorry asss franchise, tbh. They make being a Vikings fan feel like a minor luxury lol.

 

[seattlefan75]

Remember that rumor that the rockets where offering 5 first round picks for butler? if that was true idk how Minnesota didn't take it. I would have flipped those picks for someone else like Kemba Walker

 

[tlance]

Remember that rumor that the rockets where offering 5 first round picks for butler? if that was true idk how Minnesota didn't take it. I would have flipped those picks for someone else like Kemba Walker

Because late 1st round picks don't have that much trade value. As long as Harden is playing and healthy, they will be picking in the 20s.

 

[seattlefan75]

Because late 1st round picks don't have that much trade value. As long as Harden is playing and healthy, they will be picking in the 20s.

I mean yeah they aren't lottery picks and its rare than an all star comes from that range but you can find some pretty good role players in the late first round and the fact that you can get 5 of them to me is better than what they got from philly

 

[tlance]

I mean yeah they aren't lottery picks and its rare than an all star comes from that range but you can find some pretty good role players in the late first round and the fact that you can get 5 of them to me is better than what they got from philly

Nah.

Covington is a very good role player and Saric is a solid prospect.

The picks 7 and 9 years out might be something. But that is a long time to wait. Minny needs pieces to help now while they have KAT. Dealing For picks that far in future means you might as well give up on the KAT window. Minnesota can't do that.

 

[jayfan]

I would take Covington and Saric over Lavine and Dunn. That is before you consider Lavines way over the top contract. It might go slightly against the wolves because of Markkanen.

Your depiction of Covington is way off too, he is a very good defender on a good contract for his value.

I agree with this, and would add that Saric is having a rough transition with the Wolves, but he's a damn good player. They hated losing him in Philly. He was a huge part of their run last year.

 

[Sparhawk]

Saric was a former lottery pick (#12?).
And there is no doubt in my mind that Covington would have been a lottery pick given his current production.

Late 1st rounders are generally more miss than hit, but it can be done.
The only downside is that you get no short term help.
If you tank/rebuild, you can then use your pick and the late 1st rounder to trade up and/or acquire players/more assets.

It could come to fruition 3-4 years down the road and then use those other late 1sts to keep it rolling.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

4) Promotes a mediocre player you have a hard on for (Solomon Hill, DeMarre Carroll, etc.)

Alright, I'll give you your attention on this one.

Solomon Hill is not a good basketball player right now and there are multiple reasons for it.

DeMarre Carroll, however, was ranked in SI's top 100 players at the beginning of the season, and higher than your boy Danny Green.

Carroll is going to be a good value play in free agency this summer because teams will in fact be scared away by his age. If my decision came down to Carroll at two years at $16 million versus Robert Covington at four years and $60 million, I think you know which way I'd go. Only real difference between the two players is that one was part of "The Process" and the other was not.

It must be ultra-convenient to point out an instance when the other person was wrong. I was wrong about Solomon Hill and you were wrong about the Brooklyn Nets.

It works both ways.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

I would take Covington and Saric over Lavine and Dunn. That is before you consider Lavines way over the top contract. It might go slightly against the wolves because of Markkanen.

That was not the question. The question was whether you'd have given the money to LaVine instead of Wiggins and sent Wiggins in the Chicago deal instead. Whatev tho

 

[The Q]

That was not the question. The question was whether you'd have given the money to LaVine instead of Wiggins and sent Wiggins in the Chicago deal instead. Whatev tho

I would’ve happily paid neither.

 

[Mebert]

That was not the question. The question was whether you'd have given the money to LaVine instead of Wiggins and sent Wiggins in the Chicago deal instead. Whatev tho

I would rather that money not go to either player. I can say that Lavine would not have had his confidence shattered, so at least he would be the same player.

Out of the 2, I would still take Wiggins. Wolves offense is fine with his bad shot selection and poor finishing. The defense is already worst in basketball, add Lavine it is probably the worst in history.

 

[tlance]

Alright, I'll give you your attention on this one.

Solomon Hill is not a good basketball player right now and there are multiple reasons for it.

DeMarre Carroll, however, was ranked in SI's top 100 players at the beginning of the season, and higher than your boy Danny Green.

Carroll is going to be a good value play in free agency this summer because teams will in fact be scared away by his age. If my decision came down to Carroll at two years at $16 million versus Robert Covington at four years and $60 million, I think you know which way I'd go. Only real difference between the two players is that one was part of "The Process" and the other was not.

It must be ultra-convenient to point out an instance when the other person was wrong. I was wrong about Solomon Hill and you were wrong about the Brooklyn Nets.

It works both ways.

You are wrong all the time.

As for Brooklyn, I was wrong about DLo. As for the team?

I said they would be bad last year. They weren't the worst in the league, but they were still bad. I didn't say anything at all about them this year.

I also said I didn't like their build plan. I still don't. Looks a lot like the Wizards 45-50 win ceiling model to me. Now, since they are in NY, perhaps they can sign an elite player to go with what they have. If they don't? They probably cap out as a solid playoff team that doesn't actually contend. Which is what I said at the beginning of this season.