Keim - Redskins & Griffin reach critical point

[SoCalWizFan]

I expect and hope that if SM proceeds with the approach of competition, drafting solid football players and 'team over individual', our culture will inevitably trend towards a professional franchise.

The QB fiasco is just one manifestation of a dysfunctional culture issue to me.

One troubling thing I see for the 'other 52' is a lack of consistency with the stated goal of competition at all levels. I have no problem with SM taking SOME of this season to validate whether Griffin Can be the guy, but this franchise and the rest of the players need decisive decisions and sooner rather than later in the season about the position.

In essence, I think we are both coming from the same viewpoint in regards to our hopes for SM and the team.

Agree. None of us really know what is occurring behind the scenes at Redskins Park which could possibly resolve some of this in the not too distant future. I would also caution folks from reading too much into things when it is only the midway pt of the preseason.

Think about Seattle situation (where SM played a major role). QB was basically the last thing that was decided there & it was resolved in a major part due to luck. However - the team was ready once they had a solid QB since the rest of the team was in excellent shape. I have hope that something similar could happen in DC (not necessarily this season) regardless of the eventual QB.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Let's face it, nearly all professional players want a long and successful careers, so the natural and correct response to such a statement by Shanahan would be, "At what cost coach, being able to walk and not remeber my name because you were too afraid to insist on my proper development?"

I still don't get your position and I guess I never will. If he is taking all these big hits that will prevent him from walking that's on him as everyone has been saying since his rookie year. He is the idiot who did not understand that he needed to step out of bounds or slide rather than take enormous hits. Shanny told it to him repeatedly.

Russell Wilson is at no more risk of having a short career or remember his name than any other QB. Because he plays smart and takes very few hits. It's not the offense, it's the idiot QB in Washington who fails to listen when people keep telling him to protect himself and play smarter, that is the problem

 

[skinsdad62]

I still don't get your position and I guess I never will. If he is taking all these big hits that will prevent him from walking that's on him as everyone has been saying since his rookie year. He is the idiot who did not understand that he needed to step out of bounds or slide rather than take enormous hits. Shanny told it to him repeatedly.

Russell Wilson is at no more risk of having a short career or remember his name than any other QB. Because he plays smart and takes very few hits. It's not the offense, it's the idiot QB in Washington who fails to listen when people keep telling him to protect himself and play smarter, that is the problem

i agree but i will add one thing . i think shanny mishandled the injury when it occurred vs the ravens . he should have never put him in a game until he was brace free and when he tweeked it in seatle in the first half he should have sat him . then in my opinion the ACL doesnt happen , bad feelings arent there , and trust is built up

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

i agree but i will add one thing . i think shanny mishandled the injury when it occurred vs the ravens . he should have never put him in a game until he was brace free and when he tweeked it in seatle in the first half he should have sat him . then in my opinion the ACL doesnt happen , bad feelings arent there , and trust is built up

Oh no question Shanny mishandled the injury. Regarding the Ravens game it was the QB who later admitting to lying to the coach, Shanny had no idea he was hurt badly until later when it was obvious. No where Shanahan screwed up is in the playoff game against Seattle.

But the thought that he was mishandled early on by putting him in the read option, obvously the only system that works for him, is nonsense. Again the hits are on him and last time I checked he was getting pummeled in a traditional pocket offense too.

 

[Burnsie]

I wish they would just cut RG3, move in a new direction and let the circus move out of town. Then don't worry about what happens this year and build for the future.

 

[deanpet21]

I agree Burnsie

 

[Stymietee]

I still don't get your position and I guess I never will. If he is taking all these big hits that will prevent him from walking that's on him as everyone has been saying since his rookie year. He is the idiot who did not understand that he needed to step out of bounds or slide rather than take enormous hits. Shanny told it to him repeatedly.

Russell Wilson is at no more risk of having a short career or remember his name than any other QB. Because he plays smart and takes very few hits. It's not the offense, it's the idiot QB in Washington who fails to listen when people keep telling him to protect himself and play smarter, that is the problem

First let's not do revisionist history, in December 2012 against the Ravens, Griffin was already well into a slide on the ground and was hit by H. Nata causing the initial injury . The final insult to that same leg came against Seattle in the playoff game on a poor snap with no one around him, therefore no need to slide/ protect himself.

So here's mr position to be clear. This dysfunctional organization FAILED Griffin and the few other professional players on the team at the time by hiring and playing guys who had no business in the game. Remember it was Shanahan himself who stated that he devised a gimmicky scheme that propelled the team into the winning streak that garnered a playoff berth that year.


Moving on........How did they fail Griffin? They took a guy who essentially had three things going for him, he could run, throw a football and put asses in seats/ sell product and asked him, after his request/ insistence to play more conventionally. I don't know why anyone blames the guy for wanting NOT to be a runner first and alternately a passer. (Remember the 2012 scheme here) That said, once the decision was made, or to be fair Griffin's insistence to be a pocket QB granted......EVERYTHING that immediately followed should have been out of Griffin's control and those moves include: an immediate benching, intense study sessions of the playbook, film studies, the hiring of an well respected professional QB coach to teach and master footwork, pocket play and reading defenses (the technology does exist). Failing any one of them would mean zero playing time (added bonus a muting of his divatude). BTW: You don't learn to play smarter or protect yourself simply because people keep telling you to do so, you learn how to do these things because there is a professional structure in place that insists that you learn, or you don't play. Washington didnt.....that is until 2015 (too late to bench him and get that bonus).

 

[Stymietee]

I still don't get your position and I guess I never will. If he is taking all these big hits that will prevent him from walking that's on him as everyone has been saying since his rookie year. He is the idiot who did not understand that he needed to step out of bounds or slide rather than take enormous hits. Shanny told it to him repeatedly.

Russell Wilson is at no more risk of having a short career or remember his name than any other QB. Because he plays smart and takes very few hits. It's not the offense, it's the idiot QB in Washington who fails to listen when people keep telling him to protect himself and play smarter, that is the problem

Not everyone is saying or has said that!! I say now as I did when they drafted him, They should NOT have played him until he was properly prepared to play the position.

 

[skinsdad62]

First let's not do revisionist history, in December 2012 against the Ravens, Griffin was already well into a slide on the ground and was hit by H. Nata causing the initial injury . The final insult to that same leg came against Seattle in the playoff game on a poor snap with no one around him, therefore no need to slide/ protect himself.

So here's mr position to be clear. This dysfunctional organization FAILED Griffin and the few other professional players on the team at the time by hiring and playing guys who had no business in the game. Remember it was Shanahan himself who stated that he devised a gimmicky scheme that propelled the team into the winning streak that garnered a playoff berth that year.


Moving on........How did they fail Griffin? They took a guy who essentially had three things going for him, he could run, throw a football and put asses in seats/ sell product and asked him, after his request/ insistence to play more conventionally. I don't know why anyone blames the guy for wanting NOT to be a runner first and alternately a passer. (Remember the 2012 scheme here) That said, once the decision was made, or to be fair Griffin's insistence to be a pocket QB granted......EVERYTHING that immediately followed should have been out of Griffin's control and those moves include: an immediate benching, intense study sessions of the playbook, film studies, the hiring of an well respected professional QB coach to teach and master footwork, pocket play and reading defenses (the technology does exist). Failing any one of them would mean zero playing time (added bonus a muting of his divatude). BTW: You don't learn to play smarter or protect yourself simply because people keep telling you to do so, you learn how to do these things because there is a professional structure in place that insists that you learn, or you don't play. Washington didnt.....that is until 2015 (too late to bench him and get that bonus).

i have shown numerous times that Rg3 wasnt asked to be a runner first . 120 plays were read option plays out of 1000 12 % isnt run first

next robert played with a brace the hole time after the ravens game . his knee wasnt sound and he shouldnt have been in there

i also have a hard time calling a play (read option ) a gimmick when we have a qb who has been to 2 superbowls with it and another who made one

i say we need MORE gimmicks if that is the result

 

[Stymietee]

i have shown numerous times that Rg3 wasnt asked to be a runner first . 120 plays were read option plays out of 1000 12 % isnt run first

next robert played with a brace the hole time after the ravens game . his knee wasnt sound and he shouldnt have been in there

i also have a hard time calling a play (read option ) a gimmick when we have a qb who has been to 2 superbowls with it and another who made one

i say we need MORE gimmicks if that is the result

Addressing each of your points in order:

I'm not sure where you're getting that 1, 000 number from, possibly from the total number of plays in 2012, but the question is/was what was he asked to do in that year.

He attempted 393 passes and ran the ball 120 times, that's a total of 513 or specifically, 23% running plays. Comparatively Russell Wilson also attempted 393 passes in 2012 and ran the ball 94 times a total of 487 attempts or 19% of the time he ran. Colin Kaepernick attempted 212 passes and ran the ball 63 times in 2012 totaling 275 or 22% run. In total Griffin ran the ball 26 more times than Wilson and a whopping 57 more times than Kaepernick. The really sad part of all of this is that he was totally unprepared to be a QB in any system.

I agree with your second point to the extent that you've indicated, however, sticking to my guns, he never should have started post draft.

Gimmick is the term MS uses from time to time. In as much as Wilson going to 2 SB's using the read option......that's true...but what got them there was not the read option, but rather the NFL calibre players on that team, a coaching staff that knew how to use their talent, and a front office that hired competent personnel to run things. Washington has had nothing close to what Seattle put together until the early steps in that direction with 2015 moves.

 

[JonBlaze]

What happened to this guy:




the good ol' days when we would argue about other things.....

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Thanks for that clip Blaze, I guess. Kind of depressing. Oddly enough I only saw one TD pass that appeared to come off the read option which was Dad's point. It was a small percentage of the actual plays they ran but the threat of it was very effective.

Stymie asks why he wasn't on the bench until he was ready. Well clearly that wasn't necessary, he was ready enough to set records as a rookie on his way to OROY honors. And again it was not all from the read option.

 

[skinz2winz]

Looks like the guy can pass from the pocket huh? Until we get a REAL HC in here (I'm sure SM has his eye on one) to run this team effectively, our QB may be here in the future.

 

[skinsdad62]

Addressing each of your points in order:

I'm not sure where you're getting that 1, 000 number from, possibly from the total number of plays in 2012, but the question is/was what was he asked to do in that year.

He attempted 393 passes and ran the ball 120 times, that's a total of 513 or specifically, 23% running plays. Comparatively Russell Wilson also attempted 393 passes in 2012 and ran the ball 94 times a total of 487 attempts or 19% of the time he ran. Colin Kaepernick attempted 212 passes and ran the ball 63 times in 2012 totaling 275 or 22% run. In total Griffin ran the ball 26 more times than Wilson and a whopping 57 more times than Kaepernick. The really sad part of all of this is that he was totally unprepared to be a QB in any system.

I agree with your second point to the extent that you've indicated, however, sticking to my guns, he never should have started post draft.

Gimmick is the term MS uses from time to time. In as much as Wilson going to 2 SB's using the read option......that's true...but what got them there was not the read option, but rather the NFL calibre players on that team, a coaching staff that knew how to use their talent, and a front office that hired competent personnel to run things. Washington has had nothing close to what Seattle put together until the early steps in that direction with 2015 moves.

i got it from total plays and that is what you have to do . the ran 1000 plays , 120 were read option Rg3 was the qb for but about 100 snaps (KC finished up in atl , baltimore and cleveland )

you have to plays sty because that is the offense

 

[Burnsie]

Thanks for that clip Blaze, I guess. Kind of depressing. Oddly enough I only saw one TD pass that appeared to come off the read option which was Dad's point. It was a small percentage of the actual plays they ran but the threat of it was very effective.

Yes the read option was a small percentage of actual plays. However it was called enough to force the DE's to respect the play most every time they lined up. They could not always go wide for the pass rush when they had containment responsibilities. This caused a minor delay in the pass rush. Which gave RG3 more time in the pocket and helped the Oline control the defensive players. Without the read option included in the play book because he has been hurt, RG3 has to be able to successfully punish teams with his passing ability. So far he has been unable to do that. At least not nearly enough.

 

[Stymietee]

i got it from total plays and that is what you have to do . the ran 1000 plays , 120 were read option Rg3 was the qb for but about 100 snaps (KC finished up in atl , baltimore and cleveland )

you have to plays sty because that is the offense

No you don't .........you use the number of plays that he ACTUALLY ran or passed it. Using your formula discounts all others because you're crediting him with the play. Take for example Alfred Morris his 335 carries that year (33%) using your formula are all discounted simply because Griffin handed it to him. Worse Pierre Garcon who caught 44 passes that year ( .04% again using your formula) had no business on the field contributing so very little percentage wise. In my formula you include times targeted, and number of catches in the case of Garcon. They don't pay Garcon type money to a player who out of a thousand plays he accounted for .04% of the teams effort. You pay him because in 10 games he caught 44 passes for 633 yards for an average of 14.4 per catch (2012 stats).

 

[skinsdad62]

No you don't .........you use the number of plays that he ACTUALLY ran or passed it. Using your formula discounts all others because you're crediting him with the play. Take for example Alfred Morris his 335 carries that year (33%) using your formula are all discounted simply because Griffin handed it to him. Worse Pierre Garcon who caught 44 passes that year ( .04% again using your formula) had no business on the field contributing so very little percentage wise. In my formula you include times targeted, and number of catches in the case of Garcon. They don't pay Garcon type money to a player who out of a thousand plays he accounted for .04% of the teams effort. You pay him because in 10 games he caught 44 passes for 633 yards for an average of 14.4 per catch (2012 stats).

yes you do you have to count the entire offense sty . Rg3 took those snaps that he handed the ball of to a RB or wr i said the skins ran 1000 plays of which 120 were read option plays the pass attempts , sacks , and handoffs not of a read option variety account for the total offense we ran now if you want to back into the posts here from the 2012 and 2013 offseason you will see that i got the numbers from

 

[Stymietee]

yes you do you have to count the entire offense sty . Rg3 took those snaps that he handed the ball of to a RB or wr i said the skins ran 1000 plays of which 120 were read option plays the pass attempts , sacks , and handoffs not of a read option variety account for the total offense we ran now if you want to back into the posts here from the 2012 and 2013 offseason you will see that i got the numbers from

OK, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one!

 

[skinsdad62]

your question was ,what was he asked to do? . by the numbers he was asked to run the west coast offense approximately 88 % of the time based on the numbers

that was what he was asked to do by a huge margin

the read option is a play ,not a gimmick offense the pistol is a formation , not a gimmick offense and just because you line up in a pistol formation it doesnt mean its a read option play

so when soemone comes out and says they ran a gimmick offense i will come out every time and say they are wrong and the numbers dont justify the claim

he took the snaps, less KC's snaps , so he ran the entire offense whether it was a pass play , a read option play a reverse play , a stretch run play etc etc etc

 

[Sharkinva]

Looks like the guy can pass from the pocket huh? Until we get a REAL HC in here (I'm sure SM has his eye on one) to run this team effectively, our QB may be here in the future.

OK so I got to ask, whats a real HC?? We had Shanahan, who by the way helped make wonderboy Rookie of the year. But we then fired him ( primarily to appease the QB). We then bought in one of the better OC's in the league and made him the HC. Yet once again we are having Issues at the QB position.

So out of curiosity, who exactly do you think we can bring in as a "REAL" HC, that would be able to work with the chosen one?? Please, enlighten on this real HC of which you speak.