Kam Chancellor Hold out?

[WizardHawk]

There are penalties for holding out, just like there are penalties for a team to cut a player. But both are within the framework of the contracts. Otherwise there would be a lot breach of contract lawsuits from players and teams. Loss of wages for missed work is pretty standard, and it doesn't mean that he's breaking a contract, just not getting paid for the time that he misses.

And I understand how uncommon this is. I just disagree with the fact that he's doing something that is a boc. Illiformed? Sure. Dumb? Yeah. Wrong? No more than a team cutting a player with times left on his deal.

You are arguing different things to make a point I don't agree with. There is a difference between saying he's in a legal sense of breach of contract than each players contract is really year to year no matter what the terms are. They are unrelated. Kam's sitting out isn't a legal question. The CBA clearly lists what repercussions any party has and both sides agree to keep it in league. We have already seen glaring examples of how well that works in real life with the deflategate garbage. The leagues rules have been torn up in courts for years now. But it is in their code to keep these matters in house.

Things were different a very short time ago. Players held out all the time, like big Walt. Rookies held out to try and get better deals before they ever even saw the field and vets held out to get the kind of money some rookies were being offered. It was a hot mess. They entirely restructured the whole contract process and made it so rookies had almost no rights at all through the end of their predetermined contracts. This leaves teams able to pay veterans more as rookies now have to prove it before getting paid. Both teams and players made out well in that exchange, however the players ended up giving up some of the leverage they used to have as well. The things that let Galloway stay out and profit aren't the same anymore.

I have zero compassion for most players in these things. That doesn't mean I hate them. Obviously Wilson is an example of someone screwed by the system and someone who did deserve understanding. I had no problems with Bennett asking for more money in the off season. Said as much to those who were tossing him under a bus. I said then to wait and see if he takes into the season. That's where the line clearly is and must be. He came into camp even on day 1. Had zero issues with him. Players and teams both benefit from the system as is. This notion that players get screwed because teams can dump them at any time is pure nonsense. Both players and teams want multi year deals. Players want guaranteed money that goes beyond this years pay as insurance which they know makes it much harder for teams to get rid of them until those guarantees are paid off. The longer the deal they sign, the larger the signing bonus and windfall payday they receive. They are not innocent victims of long term contracts that are one sided. It simply isn't true.

 

[WizardHawk]

Seems a few people up here are lost on what is fact and what is opinion.
These are the facts of the situation. There is no room for debate.

1. Kam is holding out from playing or participating in team activities and is carrying into the regular season. He is doing so of his own free will, not out of injury.
2. By not playing in game 1 his team has a greater than 0% percent more of a chance of losing unless you feel his replacement is exactly as good as he is or better than him, and if you do this discussion is way over your head.
3. Earl hasn't played a live down of football since the SB and will not have Kam to help lean on while he gets back into the swing of things. In fact he very likely will have to do even more with Kam gone to help make up for any mistakes from Kam's replacement. This puts Earl's chances of reinjury just due to Kam not being there at greater than 0%.
4. Kam wants something out of the team. We don't know the exact terms he's asked for as there have been different reports saying different things, however the fact he isn't here and is sitting out games means he is asking for something more than he has now.
5. If the Seahawks win and look good in the secondary his sitting out accomplishes nothing. If that trend continues he will have to come back at some point with almost no chance at an improved deal.
6. This means he needs either the team to lose, Earl or his replacement to get injured, or at least the secondary to not look good in order for his sitting out to be productive. He literally can't gain anything unless one or more of those happens as a result of his sitting out.


So it is my opinion he's a pile of crap for being willing to put the team and his fellow players in positions where injury and failure for them are greater while he waits to cash in on it.

I will add to #5 that not only will it not give him whatever it is he is seeking by sitting out if the team still wins and looks good without him, but he will actually lose because he's not likely to get these rolling fines waved nor any kind of deal that pays him for games lost. You know damned well if Earl gets hurt he's not only demanding whatever he's asking for in '16, but he's also going to demand he gets paid for time lost and fines waved and he will very much have the leverage to push those as possible. That isn't open for debate is it?

 

[chf]

So it is my opinion

<golf clap>

You could have just led with that.

 

[chf]

No, the irony or hypocrisy if you prefer are telling someone to not do something and then doing it yourself. I never told you not to do anything. I simply pointed out that being a hypocrite isn't helping you look any smarter. And that's a fact.

Except AGAIN, I'm not telling you not to do something. I'm disagreeing with your conclusions. As are other people.

YOU are the one playing the 'hey it's just simple logic' card, like anyone with the temerity to disagree with your conclusions must therefore be teh stupidz.

 

[WizardHawk]

Except AGAIN, I'm not telling you not to do something. I'm disagreeing with your conclusions. As are other people.

YOU are the one playing the 'hey it's just simple logic' card, like anyone with the temerity to disagree with your conclusions must therefore be teh stupidz.

I made a post not far above this that laid out the simple facts. I notice you didn't respond to that, you instead again attempt to put words in my mouth. Something you have done now on half a dozen posts or so?

It's not helping you man. This grade school shit didn't work on me 40 years ago and sure isn't going to now. Try sticking to the facts at hand if you want to be taken seriously, otherwise you are just another internet douche.

 

[chf]

I made a post not far above this that laid out the simple facts. I notice you didn't respond to that, you instead again attempt to put words in my mouth. Something you have done now on half a dozen posts or so?

It's not helping you man. This grade school shit didn't work on me 40 years ago and sure isn't going to now. Try sticking to the facts at hand if you want to be taken seriously, otherwise you are just another internet douche.

The early #'s in your list, there's nothing to disagree with, and nobody IS disagreeing with you on them (that's a strawman you've constructed on your own). In fact I've AGREED with you that Kam probably isn't going to get what he wants.

You lose the thread when you veer into his motivations, as if the early #'s in your list lead to your conclusion that he's hoping for the team to fail without him. THAT'S what people are disagreeing with.

And your little Fruedian type, where you used the word 'opinion,' says it all. Like I said, you should have just led with that, and we could have avoided all this back and forth nonsense.

It's your opinion. Noted.

 

[WizardHawk]

The early #'s in your list, there's nothing to disagree with, and nobody IS disagreeing with you on them (that's a strawman you've constructed on your own). In fact I've AGREED with you that Kam probably isn't going to get what he wants.

You lose the thread when you veer into his motivations, as if the early #'s in your list lead to your conclusion that he's hoping for the team to fail without him. THAT'S what people are disagreeing with.

And your little Fruedian type, where you used the word 'opinion,' says it all. Like I said, you should have just led with that, and we could have avoided all this back and forth nonsense.

It's your opinion. Noted.

My first post said he needed for them to lose to get what he wants. Now that was so many pages ago perhaps you simply forgot, but I've created no such distractions. It is you that has fabricated this into something more than I've said.

Curious, you speak of the 'early numbers' and then sort of vaguely elude to the latter having issues. Please expand. What exactly is incorrect with the the later number facts. I was super cautious to delineate what I was saying is fact and what my opinion was. Show me where I was wrong.

 

[WizardHawk]

Because most of the ire of you and a couple of other posters appears to be the semantics of 'needs' vs 'rooting for' or 'wants'. All of which aren't that far apart in this case.

 

[chf]

My first post said he needed for them to lose to get what he wants. Now that was so many pages ago perhaps you simply forgot, but I've created no such distractions. It is you that has fabricated this into something more than I've said.

Curious, you speak of the 'early numbers' and then sort of vaguely elude to the latter having issues. Please expand. What exactly is incorrect with the the later number facts. I was super cautious to delineate what I was saying is fact and what my opinion was. Show me where I was wrong.

My angle the entire time was in your need to make Chancellor out to be (and I'm quoting your post on this page) a 'pile of crap.'

AGAIN, nobody is arguing your early points in your list above. We can all agree on the facts.

Here's some other facts.

1. Kam Chancellor was a team captain.
2. Kam Chancellor was regarded as a team leader and motivator from management/coaches on down to players.
3. Kam (as you've admitted) had kept the respect of the players even after his holdout, by tutoring his replacements.

My personal take? Kam backed himself into a corner, and his pride wouldn't let him walk it back. I'm disappointed in how he handled this.

I think it's hyperbole to call him a 'piece of crap,' or whatever other colorful language you've used in this thread.

That's where my disagreement lies.

Not with your 'facts' early in your list.

 

[chf]

Because most of the ire of you and a couple of other posters appears to be the semantics of 'needs' vs 'rooting for' or 'wants'. All of which aren't that far apart in this case.

And clearly there's not much difference between 'respected team leader' and 'pile of crap,' right?

 

[chf]

To follow up my thoughts in #530, from an organizational standpoint, Kam is most likely going to be back. In the interests of team chemistry moving forward, it's REALLY important that language like 'piece of crap,' be avoided.

If he's not going to be back, then Seattle needs to maximize his value in order to get the biggest return.

In that scenario also, language like 'piece of crap' would be counter-productive.

Thankfully you're nowhere near the negotiations.

 

[WizardHawk]

My angle the entire time was in your need to make Chancellor out to be (and I'm quoting your post on this page) a 'pile of crap.'

AGAIN, nobody is arguing your early points in your list above. We can all agree on the facts.

Here's some other facts.

1. Kam Chancellor was a team captain.
2. Kam Chancellor was regarded as a team leader and motivator from management/coaches on down to players.
3. Kam (as you've admitted) had kept the respect of the players even after his holdout, by tutoring his replacements.

My personal take? Kam backed himself into a corner, and his pride wouldn't let him walk it back. I'm disappointed in how he handled this.

I think it's hyperbole to call him a 'piece of crap,' or whatever other colorful language you've used in this thread.

That's where my disagreement lies.

Not with your 'facts' early in your list.

Why continue to mention 'facts early in my list' if you don't have anything to disagree with the ones later in that same list? Either I presented the facts correctly or I didn't. That you feel other facts should also add to it is your opinion, but doesn't render that he NEEDS the team to lose or someone to get hurt for his holdout to be productive. That's just a fact of this situation that he put the team in. And yet that seems to trouble you and a few other fans up here.

And clearly there's not much difference between 'respected team leader' and 'pile of crap,' right?

So you can't both give props to a guy that does great things and still say what he is doing now is shitty? Because life isn't as black and white as you portray it to be. I'll show you in a few minutes, give me a second or two.

 

[gohusk]

Why continue to mention 'facts early in my list' if you don't have anything to disagree with the ones later in that same list? Either I presented the facts correctly or I didn't. That you feel other facts should also add to it is your opinion, but doesn't render that he NEEDS the team to lose or someone to get hurt for his holdout to be productive. That's just a fact of this situation that he put the team in. And yet that seems to trouble you and a few other fans up here.

So you can't both give props to a guy that does great things and still say what he is doing now is shitty? Because life isn't as black and white as you portray it to be. I'll show you in a few minutes, give me a second or two.

It's not your facts. It's your conclusion that he's rooting against the team that everyone has a problem with. Just because he's having problems with the FO doesn't mean he's rooting against his teammates. Do you honestly think he'd be happy with a Rams win? Your opinion is yes. Most other people don't share that opinion. But the fact of the matter is that it's your opinion. If ET were to blow out his knee then it would help him as well. Do you think he's rooting for that?

 

[WizardHawk]

This is on my wall in my office right now over my desk. Tell me again you know everything about what credit I do, or do not give any particular player based solely off comments I'm making about current events.

This is oddly enough sitting right next to my Seahawks calendar which is featuring Earl this month for those that also have that.

So keep telling me what I'm saying and mischaracterizing my overall views. It's really showing you don't want to address the situation, but would rather just attack anyone that doesn't share your views.

 

[TheDayMan]

Jesus christ. Have we gotten to a point where everyone has such a giant stick up their ass that we need to give a disclaimer everytime we post our opinions on a message board? What's this argument even about anymore? Some of us acknowledge that, since he's choosing to sit out games now, Kam has to be rooting against the Seahawks on some level, and some of you blow up into this? If you don't think that's true more power to you I suppose...

 

[SonnyCID]

You are arguing different things to make a point I don't agree with. There is a difference between saying he's in a legal sense of breach of contract than each players contract is really year to year no matter what the terms are. They are unrelated. Kam's sitting out isn't a legal question. The CBA clearly lists what repercussions any party has and both sides agree to keep it in league. We have already seen glaring examples of how well that works in real life with the deflategate garbage. The leagues rules have been torn up in courts for years now. But it is in their code to keep these matters in house.

Things were different a very short time ago. Players held out all the time, like big Walt. Rookies held out to try and get better deals before they ever even saw the field and vets held out to get the kind of money some rookies were being offered. It was a hot mess. They entirely restructured the whole contract process and made it so rookies had almost no rights at all through the end of their predetermined contracts. This leaves teams able to pay veterans more as rookies now have to prove it before getting paid. Both teams and players made out well in that exchange, however the players ended up giving up some of the leverage they used to have as well. The things that let Galloway stay out and profit aren't the same anymore.

I have zero compassion for most players in these things. That doesn't mean I hate them. Obviously Wilson is an example of someone screwed by the system and someone who did deserve understanding. I had no problems with Bennett asking for more money in the off season. Said as much to those who were tossing him under a bus. I said then to wait and see if he takes into the season. That's where the line clearly is and must be. He came into camp even on day 1. Had zero issues with him. Players and teams both benefit from the system as is. This notion that players get screwed because teams can dump them at any time is pure nonsense. Both players and teams want multi year deals. Players want guaranteed money that goes beyond this years pay as insurance which they know makes it much harder for teams to get rid of them until those guarantees are paid off. The longer the deal they sign, the larger the signing bonus and windfall payday they receive. They are not innocent victims of long term contracts that are one sided. It simply isn't true.

You can bet your ass that every team evaluates every contract, every offseason. Some are simple evaluations, and some are not. But with a salary cap hanging over you, you are constantly evaluating the money that you are spending, and/or want to spend or save. We see so many moving pieces in the NFL, it's a constant rotation of players (cuts, renegotiations, restructurings) don't see why it's a crazy idea that the teams are always going over what they have on the books.

As far as the ethical nature of what he's doing... I honestly see it no more unethical of a business practice than cutting a player under contract, or asking them to take less money or else be cut.

 

[chf]

So you can't both give props to a guy that does great things and still say what he is doing now is shitty? Because life isn't as black and white as you portray it to be. I'll show you in a few minutes, give me a second or two.

Yes, you can. That's my point, Kam can do what he's doing without being a 'pile of crap.'

You're literally calling the guy a pile of human excrement (I'm assuming human, dog?)

It's your hyperbole I have the issue with. It's why I compared you to a teenage girl upthread. It's like you're hormonal or something. How old are you btw?

 

[WizardHawk]

It's not your facts. It's your conclusion that he's rooting against the team that everyone has a problem with. Just because he's having problems with the FO doesn't mean he's rooting against his teammates. Do you honestly think he'd be happy with a Rams win? Your opinion is yes. Most other people don't share that opinion. But the fact of the matter is that it's your opinion. If ET were to blow out his knee then it would help him as well. Do you think he's rooting for that?

1. Fact 'most other people' amounts to 3? Maybe 4?
2. Kam can only get what he wants if the team loses, someone gets injured, or the secondary plays badly. He stands to lose a lot if none of those happens. He's also increasing the odds that those do happen simply by not being there. That's enough to be angry about IMO.

If you all want to get caught up in semantics then simply say 'need' instead of 'want', but they are the same to me. I've also said he has to be conflicted as these are his teammates and friends whose lives he is messing with in his selfish acts he is involved in.

 

[chf]

View attachment 28370
This is on my wall in my office right now over my desk. Tell me again you know everything about what credit I do, or do not give any particular player based solely off comments I'm making about current events.

This is oddly enough sitting right next to my Seahawks calendar which is featuring Earl this month for those that also have that.

So keep telling me what I'm saying and mischaracterizing my overall views. It's really showing you don't want to address the situation, but would rather just attack anyone that doesn't share your views.

Dude, I'm not mis-characterizing squat. I'm QUOTING you for fvck's sake.

'Pile of crap.'

That's a poster of a 'pile of crap,' you have on your wall.

 

[chf]

2. Kam can only get what he wants if the team loses, someone gets injured, or the secondary plays badly.

That's not true. Someone already quoted Kris Richard saying something would get done. And as of now the team hasn't lost, no-one has been injured, and the secondary hasn't played badly.

You have a problem with opinion and fact.