Josh Gordon: Facing Suspension - Failed Drug Test

[Retroram52]

What? Icefreeze. You most certainly did mention that attitude of life. Here is the direct quote:

"But that is neither here nor there, even if it was a choice, who cares? I don't hate everyone who doesn't make the same choices I do. Personally, I prefer everything private and advertising sex isn't something I think we should promote, so as long as they're being appropriate, do whatever they want!"

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

I don't want to join the argument here, but from an outsider's perspective just observing, I see certain patterns. Retro argues with facts that back up his statements.....he can verify what he says...which by definition makes his statements factual. Shopson on the other hand I've noticed that you continually argue with heresay, rhetoric, and personal opinion. And not just on this thread, that is your Modus operandi. Now that is fine most of the time because these boards are just for that---voicing your opinion. And as long as that is all that your arguing, opinion, yours is just as valid as anybody else's. But when you want to argue fact vs opinion.....well it doesn't quite work Shopson. You don't seem to understand that concept. And until you do Retro will continue to just make you look bad.

 

[Vitamike]

I don't want to join the argument here, but from an outsider's perspective just observing, I see certain patterns. Retro argues with facts that back up his statements.....he can verify what he says...which by definition makes his statements factual. Shopson on the other hand I've noticed that you continually argue with heresay, rhetoric, and personal opinion. And not just on this thread, that is your Modus operandi. Now that is fine most of the time because these boards are just for that---voicing your opinion. And as long as that is all that your arguing, opinion, yours is just as valid as anybody else's. But when you want to argue fact vs opinion.....well it doesn't quite work Shopson. You don't seem to understand that concept. And until you do Retro will continue to just make you look bad.

In the interest of fairness and although I agree with Retro's opinions on the connection between long-term memory loss and marijuana use, it's actually only shopson who has made a 'factual statement' regarding marijuana.

There are cases where certain strains can control seizures that otherwise cannot be controlled..

Marijuana stops child's severe seizures - CNN.com

300 grand mal seizures a week too will cause memory loss!

This part of Charlotte's Web should make us all take a step back and think outside the box.

"I literally see Charlotte's brain making connections that haven't been made in years," Matt said. "My thought now is, why were we the ones that had to go out and find this cure? This natural cure? How come a doctor didn't know about this? How come they didn't make me aware of this?"
The marijuana strain Charlotte and now 41 other patients use to ease painful symptoms of diseases such as epilepsy and cancer has been named after the little girl who is getting her life back one day at a time.
It's called Charlotte's Web.
"I didn't hear her laugh for six months," Paige said. "I didn't hear her voice at all, just her crying. I can't imagine that I would be watching her making these gains that she's making, doing the things that she's doing (without the medical marijuana). I don't take it for granted. Every day is a blessing."

Facts must be conclusive and not disputable, in other words, a factual statement can only be answered by true or false.

See below.....

Concerns have been raised about the potential for long-term cannabis consumption to increase risk for schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression, however studies are inconclusive[4][5] and the ultimate conclusions on these factors are disputed.[6][7][8][9] The evidence of long-term effects on memory is preliminary and hindered by confounding factors.[10][11]Effects of cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Retroram52]

Here Vita are a few research papers that provide definitive evidence indicating loss of memory with cannabis use. I think these data are very factual but I am not sure they will be accepted as such on this board for obvious reasons.

1. Gordon AJ, Conley JW, Gordon JM (December 2013). "Medical consequences of marijuana use: a review of current literature". Curr Psychiatry Rep (Review) 15 (12): 419. doi:10.1007/s11920-013-0419-7. PMID 24234874.

2. Ranganathan, Mohini; d'Souza, Deepak Cyril (2006). "The acute effects of cannabinoids on memory in humans: a review". Psychopharmacology 188 (4): 425–44. doi:10.1007/s00213-006-0508-y. PMID 17019571.

3. Rubino, T; Parolaro, D (2008). "Long lasting consequences of cannabis exposure in adolescence". Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 286 (1–2 Suppl 1): S108–13. doi:10.1016/j.mce.2008.02.003. PMID 18358595.

 

[Vitamike]

Here Vita are a few research papers that provide definitive evidence indicating loss of memory with cannabis use. I think these data are very factual but I am not sure they will be accepted as such on this board for obvious reasons.

1. Gordon AJ, Conley JW, Gordon JM (December 2013). "Medical consequences of marijuana use: a review of current literature". Curr Psychiatry Rep (Review) 15 (12): 419. doi:10.1007/s11920-013-0419-7. PMID 24234874.

Abstract
With the advent of legalization of marijuana for medicinal and recreational purposes, and the increase use of marijuana, healthcare providers will be increasingly confronted with marijuana users as patients in clinical environments. While there is vast literature regarding the societal and mental health harms associated with marijuana use, there is a paucity of reviews of the potential consequences of marijuana use on physical health or medical conditions. We examine the recent literature on the physical harms associated with illicit and legal marijuana administration. We surveyed the peer-reviewed medical literature from 1998 to 2013 of studies assessing the association of marijuana use and physical diseases. We conclude that healthcare providers should be cognizant that the existing literature suggests that marijuana use can cause physical harm. However, evidence is needed, and further research should be considered, to prove causal associations of marijuana with many physical health conditions.

(Posted by Vita)
Long term memory loss isn't even mentioned as part of this research reference. Even then, it calls for more evidence and further research.


2. Ranganathan, Mohini; d'Souza, Deepak Cyril (2006). "The acute effects of cannabinoids on memory in humans: a review". Psychopharmacology 188 (4): 425–44. doi:10.1007/s00213-006-0508-y. PMID 17019571.

Despite the increasing use of cannabis among adolescents, there are little and often
contradictory studies on the long-term neurobiological consequences of cannabis
consumption in juveniles. Adolescence is a critical phase for cerebral development, where
the endocannabinoid system plays an important role influencing the release and action of
different neurotransmitters. Therefore, a strong stimulation by the psychoactive
component of marijuana, delta-9-tetrahydrocanabinol (THC), might lead to subtle but
lasting neurobiological changes that can affect adult brain functions and behaviour.

(Posted by Vita)
This is study on adolescent memory loss. Nothing in this thread has discussed this prior. If your are merely providing this because of the Charlotte's Web the young lady used a strain (R4) said to be low in THC and high in CBD. Reducing her coma's from 300 per week to 3-4 per month is remarkable! Escpecially considering the 'Doctors and Hospital' suggested putting her into a medically induced coma to give her body a rest!


3. Rubino, T; Parolaro, D (2008). "Long lasting consequences of cannabis exposure in adolescence". Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 286 (1–2 Suppl 1): S108–13. doi:10.1016/j.mce.2008.02.003. PMID 18358595.

Conclusions This profile of effects suggests that cannabinoids impair all stages of memory including encoding, consolidation, and retrieval. Several mechanisms, including effects on long-term potentiation and long-term depression and the inhibition of neurotransmitter (GABA, glutamate, acetyl choline, dopamine) release, have been implicated in the amnestic effects of cannabinoids. Future research in humans is necessary to characterize the neuroanatomical and neurochemical basis of the memory impairing effects of cannabinoids, to dissect out their effects on the various stages of memory and to bridge the expanding gap between the humans and preclinical literature.

(Posted by Vita)
Again, this research 'suggests' impairment and states future research is humans in necessary. Hardly a statement of fact

With all due respect and I'm sorry Retro because I agree with your conclusions, none of these articles listed demonstrate a conclusive link between long term memory loss and marijuana. These are a good starting points however far from fact.

Truth be told, I'm not certain they are even objective because of the US Federal Barriers

Scientific research on the medical effects of marijuana has been limited due to the stipulation that all studies must be funded by the National Institutes of Health. With cannabis declared to have “no currently accepted medical use,” the FDA designated it a Schedule I drug, a categorization reserved for street drugs with high abuse potential, such as heroin, quaaludes, lysergic acid diethylamide, and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine.3 This designation has resulted in a near-cessation of scientific research on cannabis in the United States, particularly because the only federally authorized source of cannabis is a strain grown at the University of Mississippi and accessible to researchers only by applying to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, which is reluctant to support medical research and has historically focused its efforts (almost) exclusively on demonstrating the drug's harmful effects. According to Ware et al, most cannabis research in the United States occurs "under a paradigm of prohibition and the study of risk is not yet balanced by much-needed research on benefits." Mayo Clinic PUBMED 3538401

 

[Retroram52]

I gave those to you to start you reading those are literature reviews mostly. And buy the way, you can't prove with factual statements that cannabis does improve pain or long-term memory either because the same conditions exist as you have provided here. It is often subjective or anecdotal at best. But I have a few more definitive studies for you that I'll eventually post.

 

[Retroram52]

One of the problems of doing research with cannabis is that the government will not permit longitudinal studies with humans because of political reasons I suspect as well it is highly regulated. But here is an overview to start from work going on at Penn State one of my many alma maters.

"With the recent legalizing of marijuana in Colorado, and having medical marijuana legal in 17 other states, the subject of marijuana is starting to become more appropriate (possibly appropriate enough for a blog in SC200). We all know that it is illegal, and we all know that many people have experimented with it. I myself have experimented with it many of times, and I never really felt any side effects. Maybe there is a side effect that you can't really feel or sense, memory loss. I've always heard the rumor that it did, but I never really did any scientific research on the subject. Here goes nothing.



When THC is inhaled, it passes rapidly from the lungs through the bloodstream, which gets carried to the brain. (THC is the chemical that gives you the high feeling, tetrahydrocannabinol) The THC hits parts of your brain where cannabinoid receptors are. Cannabinoid receptors can influence memory, pleasure, thinking, concentrating, sensory, time perception, and coordinated movement. THC can cause problems with learning and memory for the short time when you are "high". It may also affect you for a few days or even up to a week after. Studies have not yet been able to detect whether it has a long term effect on your memory, but it definitely decreases your ability to learn, comprehend, and memorize during your high and within an average of a few days of the high.


In one study involving lab rats, the rate were given THC and the effects on the brain were studied. The studies found that the THC weakens the connections between neurons in the hippocampus. The hippocampus is a structure that is crucial for memory formation. The hippocampus serves a major role in new memories and experienced events. This would mean that short term and long term memory loss, but it is still not proven that long term memory loss is prevalent .


From personal experience, I have never felt any memory loss. I have friends who have never smoked marijuana at all, and I still performed better academically in the classroom. As for studying, I never experienced any problems memorizing. So, for habitual users, short term memory loss is definitely something to be concerned about. Although long term memory loss is not proven, I would still think twice about using marijuana because it could possibly affect it, not to mention there are other side effects besides memory loss in marijuana."

Those neuronal connections have to do with the prduction and maintenance of neurotransmitters serotonin/dopamine, as well as acetylcholin while strengthing inhibitory neurotransmitter gammaminobutyric acid or GABA. Short-term memory is definitely affected and I know long-term memory is as well. More studies to come.

 

[Retroram52]

Here is a portion of a study from the National Institute of Drug Abuse. Among other things, THC use promotes heart attack risk and cancer in the lungs.

How does marijuana use affect your brain and body?


Effects on the Brain

As THC enters the brain, it causes the user to feel euphoric—or high—by acting on the brain's reward system, which is made up of regions that govern the response to pleasurable things like sex and chocolate, as well as to most drugs of abuse. THC activates the reward system in the same way that nearly all drugs of abuse do: by stimulating brain cells to release the chemical dopamine.

Along with euphoria, relaxation is another frequently reported effect in human studies. Other effects, which vary dramatically among different users, include heightened sensory perception (e.g., brighter colors), laughter, altered perception of time, and increased appetite. After a while, the euphoria subsides, and the user may feel sleepy or depressed. Occasionally, marijuana use may produce anxiety, fear, distrust, or panic.

Marijuana use impairs a person's ability to form new memories (see below) and to shift focus. THC also disrupts coordination and balance by binding to receptors in the cerebellum and basal ganglia—parts of the brain that regulate balance, posture, coordination, and reaction time. Therefore, learning, doing complicated tasks, participating in athletics, and driving are also affected.

Marijuana users who have taken large doses of the drug may experience an acute psychosis, which includes hallucinations, delusions, and a loss of the sense of personal identity. Short-term psychotic reactions to high concentrations of THC are distinct from longer-lasting, schizophrenia-like disorders that have been associated with the use of cannabis in vulnerable individuals. (See "Is There a Link Between Marijuana Use and Mental Illness?")

Our understanding of marijuana's long-term brain effects is limited. Research findings on how chronic cannabis use affects brain structure, for example, have been inconsistent. It may be that the effects are too subtle for reliable detection by current techniques. A similar challenge arises in studies of the effects of chronic marijuana use on brain function. Although imaging studies (functional MRI; fMRI) in chronic users do show some consistent alterations, the relation of these changes to cognitive functioning is less clear. This uncertainty may stem from confounding factors such as other drug use, residual drug effects (which can occur for at least 24 hours in chronic users), or withdrawal symptoms in long-term chronic users.


Marijuana, Memory, and the Hippocampus

Memory impairment from marijuana use occurs because THC alters how information is processed in the hippocampus, a brain area responsible for memory formation.

Distribution of cannabinoid receptors in the rat brain. Brain image reveals high levels (shown in orange and yellow) of cannabinoid receptors in many areas, including the cortex, hippocampus, cerebellum, and nucleus accumbens (ventral striatum).

Most of the evidence supporting this assertion comes from animal studies. For example, rats exposed to THC in utero, soon after birth, or during adolescence, show notable problems with specific learning/memory tasks later in life. Moreover, cognitive impairment in adult rats is associated with structural and functional changes in the hippocampus from THC exposure during adolescence.

As people age, they lose neurons in the hippocampus, which decreases their ability to learn new information. Chronic THC exposure may hasten age-related loss of hippocampal neurons. In one study, rats exposed to THC every day for 8 months (approximately 30 percent of their life-span) showed a level of nerve cell loss (at 11 to 12 months of age) that equaled that of unexposed animals twice their age.

An enduring question in the field is whether individuals who quit marijuana, even after long-term, heavy use, can recover some of their cognitive abilities. One study reports that the ability of long-term heavy marijuana users to recall words from a list was still impaired 1 week after they quit using, but returned to normal by 4 weeks. However, another study found that marijuana's effects on the brain can build up and deteriorate critical life skills over time. Such effects may be worse in those with other mental disorders, or simply by virtue of the normal aging process.

Effects on General Physical Health

Within a few minutes after inhaling marijuana smoke, an individual's heart rate speeds up, the bronchial passages relax and become enlarged, and blood vessels in the eyes expand, making the eyes look red. The heart rate—normally 70 to 80 beats per minute—may increase by 20 to 50 beats per minute, or may even double in some cases. Taking other drugs with marijuana can amplify this effect.

Limited evidence suggests that a person's risk of heart attack during the first hour after smoking marijuana is four times his or her usual risk. This observation could be partly explained by marijuana raising blood pressure (in some cases) and heart rate and reducing the blood's capacity to carry oxygen. Such possibilities need to be examined more closely, particularly since current marijuana users include adults from the baby boomer generation, who may have other cardiovascular risks that may increase their vulnerability.


Consequences of Marijuana Abuse

Acute (present during intoxication)
Impairs short-term memory
Impairs attention, judgment, and other cognitive functions
Impairs coordination and balance
Increases heart rate
Psychotic episodes

Persistent (lasting longer than intoxication, but may not be permanent)
Impairs memory and learning skills
Sleep impairment

Long-term (cumulative effects of chronic abuse)
Can lead to addiction
Increases risk of chronic cough, bronchitis
Increases risk of schizophrenia in vulnerable individuals
May increase risk of anxiety, depression, and amotivational syndrome*



* These are often reported co-occurring symptoms/disorders with chronic marijuana use. However, research has not yet determined whether marijuana is causal or just associated with these mental problems.

The smoke of marijuana, like that of tobacco, consists of a toxic mixture of gases and particulates, many of which are known to be harmful to the lungs. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illnesses, and a greater risk of lung infections. Even infrequent marijuana use can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough. One study found that extra sick days used by frequent marijuana smokers were often because of respiratory illnesses.6

In addition, marijuana has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens—up to 70 percent more than tobacco smoke. It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their cancer-causing form, which could accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells. And since marijuana smokers generally inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers, the lungs are exposed longer to carcinogenic smoke. However, while several lines of evidence have suggested that marijuana use may lead to lung cancer, the supporting evidence is inconclusive.8 The presence of an unidentified active ingredient in cannabis smoke having protective properties—if corroborated and properly characterized—could help explain the inconsistencies and modest findings.


Within a few minutes after inhaling marijuana smoke, an individual's heart rate speeds up, the bronchial passages relax and become enlarged, and blood vessels in the eyes expand, making the eyes look red.

A significant body of research demonstrates negative effects of THC on the function of various immune cells, both in vitro in cells and in vivo with test animals. However, no studies to date connect marijuana's suspected immune system suppression with greater incidence of infections or immune disorders in humans. One short (3-week) study found marijuana smoking to be associated with a few statistically significant negative effects on the immune function of AIDS patients; a second small study of college students also suggested the possibility of marijuana having adverse effects on immune system functioning. Thus, the combined evidence from animal studies plus the limited human data available seem to warrant additional research on the impact of marijuana on the immune system. (See "The Science of Medical Marijuana")

Similar to alcohol, this article outlines the totality of negative side effects with THC use. Sounds like a helluva a price to pay for pain reduction Vita when there are other pain reduction agents available. As the article states, the amounts found in the brain maybe below our present ability to measure them. However, evidence is slowly beginning to come in indicating long-term changes in memory and coordination areas of brains of adolescents who have used Cannabinoids long-term. Also, do you want highly paid athletes deliberately degrading their coordination skills? I think not. More to follow.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

Touché Retro. It's amazing how many of these myths, personal opinions, empirical, anecdotal, and junk science ideas just seem to wither away when confronted with the cold hard facts of real science. I commend your research and thoroughness, and I appreciate your methods. Puts to rest many a potential debate, and weeds out the "Merely Opinionated" and "Factually ignorant"

 

[Retroram52]

Here are some specific studies that aren't lit reviews

Martin, P. D., & Shapiro, M. K. (2000). Disparate effects of long-term potentiation on evoked potentials and single CA1 neurons in the hippocampus of anesthetized rats. Hippocampus 10, 207–212.
Sullivan, M. (2000). Cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory impairments produced by cannabinoids. Learning Memory 7, 132–139.

Pistis, M., Porcu, G., Melis, M., et al. (2001). Effects of cannabinoids on prefrontal neuronal responses to ventral tegmental area stimulation. Neuroscience 14(1), 96–102. this one is on other areas of the brain as are a few others.


Hajos, N., Ledent, C., & Freund, T. F. (2001). Novel cannabinoid-sensitive receptor mediates inhibition of glutamatergic synaptic transmission in the hippocampus. Neuroscience 106(1), 1–4.

Nicoll, R. A., & Malenka, R. C. (1995). Contrasting properties of two forms of long-term potentiation in the hippocampus. Nature 377, 115–118.

Bear, M. F., & Abraham, W. C. (1996). Long-term depression in hippocampus. Annual Review Neuroscience 19, 437–462.

Shen, M., Piser, T. M., Seybold, V. S., et al. (1996). Cannabinoid receptor agonists inhibit glutamatergic synaptic transmission in rat hippocampal cultures. Journal Neuroscience 16, 4322–4334.

Misner, D. L., & Sullivan, J. M. (1999). Mechanism of cannabinoid effects on long-term potentiation and depression in hippocampal CA1 neurons. Journal of Neuroscience 19(16), 6795–6805.

Pistis, M., Ferraro, L., Pira, L., et al. (2002). Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol decreases extracellular GABA and increases extracellular glutamate and dopaminelevels in the rat prefrontal cortex: an in vivo microdialysis study. Brain Research 948, 155–158.

Miller, L. L., & Branconnier, R. J. (1983). Cannabis: effects on memory and the cholinergic limbic system. Psychological Bulletin 93(3), 441–456.

Lichtman, A. H., & Martin, B. R. (1996). Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol impairs spatial memory through a cannabinoid receptor mechanism. Psychopharmacology Series (Berl) 119, 282–29

Wise, L. E., Thorpe, A. J., & Lichtman, A. H. (2009). Hippocampal CB1 receptors mediate the memory impairing effects of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol. Neuropsychopharmacology 34, 2072–2080.

Misner, D. L., & Sullivan, J. M. (1999). Mechanism of cannabinoid effects on long-term potential and depression in hippocampal CA1 neurons. Journal Neuroscience 19, 6795–6805.

Shen, M., Piser, T. M., Seybold, V. S., & Thayer, S. A. (1996). Cannabinoid receptor agonists inhibit glutamatergic synaptic transmission in rat hippocampal cultures. Journal of Neuroscience 16, 4322–4334.

Hajos, N., Katona, I., Naiem, S. S., et al. (2000). Cannabinoids inhibit hippocampal GABAergic transmission and network oscillations. European Journal of Neuroscience 12, 3239–3249.

Glickfeld, L. L., & Scanziani, M. (2006). Distinct timing in the activity of cannabinoid-sensitive and cannabinoid-insensitive basket cells. Nature Neuroscience 9, 807–815.

Mackie, K., & Katona, I. (2009). Get stoned in GABAergic synapses. Nature Neuroscience 12(9), 1081–1083.

Laviolette, S. R., & Grace, A. A. (2006). Cannabinoids potentiate emotional learning plasticity in neurons of the medial prefrontal cortex through basolateral amygdala inputs. The Journal of Neuroscience 26(24), 6458–6468.

Laviolette, S. R., Lipski, W. J., & Grace, A. A. (2005). A subpopulation of neurons in the medail prefrontal cortex encodes emotional learning through burst and frequency codes through a dopamine D4 receptor-dependent basolateral amygdala input. Journal Neruoscience 25, 6066–6075

Silva de Melo, L. C., Cruz, A. P., Rios Valentim Jr, S. J., et al. (2005). Delta(9)-THC administered into the medial prefrontal cortex disrupts the spatial working memory. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 183, 54–65.

Egashira, N., Mishima, K., & Iwasaki, K., et al. (2002). Intracerebral microinjections of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol: search for the impairment of spatial memory in the eight-arm radial maze in rats. Brain Research 952, 239–245.

Ranganathan, M., & D’Souza, D. C. (2006). The acute effects of cannabinoids on memory in humans: a review. Pharmacology 188, 425–444.

Hampson, R. E., & Deadwyler, S. A. (2000), Cannabinoids reveal the necessity of hippocampal neural encoding for short-term memory in rats. Journal of Neuroscience 20(23), 8932–42.

Lundqvist, T. (2005). Cognitive consequences of cannabis use: Comparison with abuse of stimulants and heroin with regard to attention, memory and executive functions. Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behaviour 81, 319–330.

Ilan, A. B., Smith, M. E., & Gevins, A. (2004). The effects of marijuana on neurophysiological signals of working and episodic memory. Psychopharmacology 176, 214–222.

Curran, H.W., Brignell, C., Fletcher, S., Middleton, P., Henry, J.(2002). “Cognitive and subjective dose-response effects of acute oral delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) in infrequent cannabis users” Psychopharmacology 164(9). 61–70.

Kanayama G, Rogowska J, Pope H G, Gruber S A, & Yurgelun-Todd, D A. (2004) Spatial working memory in heavy cannabis users: a functional magnetic resonance imagining study. Psychopharmacology 176. 239–247.

Smith, A. M., Fried, P. A., Hogan, M. J., & Cameron, I. (2006). Effects of prenatal marijuana on visuospatial working memory: an fMRI study in young adults. Neurotoxicology and Teratology 28, 286–295.

Padula, C. B., Schweinsburg, A. D., & Tapert, S. F. (2007). Spatial Working Memory Performance and fMRI Activation Interactions in Abstinent Adolescent Marijuana Users. Psychology of Addictive Behaviours 21(4), 478–487.

These are fairly specific in scope.

 

[Retroram52]

Touché Retro. It's amazing how many of these myths, personal opinions, empirical, anecdotal, and junk science ideas just seem to wither away when confronted with the cold hard facts of real science. I commend your research and thoroughness, and I appreciate your methods. Puts to rest many a potential debate, and weeds out the "Merely Opinionated" and "Factually ignorant"

Thanks Boss. That is why I borrowed all that money, participated in research, and obtained all theose advanced degrees over a 30-year period. I want to know the truth and research is one way to get there plus I enjoy learning.

 

[Vitamike]

Note: I tried to quote all text however received this message...

The text that you have entered is too long (12847 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

That said, please click on the for each quote to review Retroram's full posts.

One of the problems of doing research with cannabis is that the government will not permit longitudinal studies with humans because of political reasons I suspect as well it is highly regulated. But here is an overview to start from work going on at Penn State one of my many alma maters..............

Well done Retro! This was good stuff!

Here is a portion of a study from the National Institute of Drug Abuse. Among other things, THC use promotes heart attack risk and cancer in the lungs.

How does marijuana use affect your brain and body?


Effects on the Brain

As THC enters the brain..............

Similar to alcohol, this article outlines the totality of negative side effects with THC use. Sounds like a helluva a price to pay for pain reduction Vita when there are other pain reduction agents available. As the article states, the amounts found in the brain maybe below our present ability to measure them. However, evidence is slowly beginning to come in indicating long-term changes in memory and coordination areas of brains of adolescents who have used Cannabinoids long-term. Also, do you want highly paid athletes deliberately degrading their coordination skills? I think not. More to follow.

Some of this seems a bit dated however abuse of any drug and it's bad news so I don't see the need to support a debate of mj use with mj abuse.

Thanks Boss. That is why I borrowed all that money, participated in research, and obtained all theose advanced degrees over a 30-year period. I want to know the truth and research is one way to get there plus I enjoy learning.

I truly believe in the statement, 'Let every man be my mentor, so I may learn from him.' I also think kindness goes along way in the exchange of thoughts ideas and beliefs. This message boards has been devoid of kindness and fairness and it's not only disturbing, it's alarming. We have lost some very good posters and we stand to lose more if we can't seem to act in a more compassionate way towards one another when we disagree.

I personally believe God provided all herbs for man's use, heck it was written! That said, there is a duty to use it properly. As my name sake goes, (Vitamike) I am a staunch believer in nutritional healing and also believe that marijuana has a role if we can find the true purpose and components useful to elevate man that God has intended.

I'd like to add more however I gots to go out the door right now!

Cheers fellas! And be kind in all your endeavors!

 

[ozarkram]

Why don't we just stop all debate,conversation and discussion. Then we can slam the door in the face of anyone that does not agree with us. Oh wait this is a message board we are suppose to have debate,conversation and discussion. And differing view points. My bad again. Carry on.

 

[Retroram52]

Advice taken, Vita. Ozark, you kill me sometimes with your sense of humor! lol.

 

[Vitamike]

Advice taken, Vita. Ozark, you kill me sometimes with your sense of humor! lol.

You are cool peeps brudah!

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

I truly believe in the statement, 'Let every man be my mentor, so I may learn from him.' I also think kindness goes along way in the exchange of thoughts ideas and beliefs. This message boards has been devoid of kindness and fairness and it's not only disturbing, it's alarming. We have lost some very good posters and we stand to lose more if we can't seem to act in a more compassionate way towards one another when we disagree.


Good idea Vita. But coming from someone who's motto is "Telling it like it is" you must also realize that when someone argues with supposed "facts" that turn out to be "opinions" or "junk science" they are inevitably going to get slammed. I'm not trying to insinuate anything or pointing fingers at anyone, so I'm not saying, I'm just saying. Know what I mean? The first rule of debate is when arguing factual evidence, make sure yours is accurate. I've seen many debates go south in a hurry when one party is unprepared or trying to pull the wool over the judge's eyes.

 

[Vitamike]

I truly believe in the statement, 'Let every man be my mentor, so I may learn from him.' I also think kindness goes along way in the exchange of thoughts ideas and beliefs. This message boards has been devoid of kindness and fairness and it's not only disturbing, it's alarming. We have lost some very good posters and we stand to lose more if we can't seem to act in a more compassionate way towards one another when we disagree.


Good idea Vita. But coming from someone who's motto is "Telling it like it is" you must also realize that when someone argues with supposed "facts" that turn out to be "opinions" or "junk science" they are inevitably going to get slammed. I'm not trying to insinuate anything or pointing fingers at anyone, so I'm not saying, I'm just saying. Know what I mean? The first rule of debate is when arguing factual evidence, make sure yours is accurate. I've seen many debates go south in a hurry when one party is unprepared or trying to pull the wool over the judge's eyes.

Boss, I appreciate your insight, you make very good arguments. There is no need to 'tell it like it is' and be rude about it. My only objection to the debate was the appearance of facts as opposed to actual facts however mostly the lack of kindness in the exchange.

Compiled evidence and research study are not facts. Even a preponderance of evidence, the legal definition required for burden of proof, are not facts rather merely a collection of evidence. Even then the evidence was described as paucity of reviews, that is nearly the oposite of a preponderance of evidence.

Originally Posted by shopson67
There are cases where certain strains can control seizures that otherwise cannot be controlled..

Do you see he used the word 'can'? This is what makes his statement factual as opposed to an opinion. The word 'can' indicates a possibility or probability and in the case of Charlotte's Web, it was absolutely factual. Now to make it an absolute, it would need to be true across the board and until it is known across the board shopson absolutely needs to include the word 'can' for his statement to be true and factual. If Retro included the word can in his statements, his statements too would be factual statements.

I don't want to join the argument here, but from an outsider's perspective just observing, I see certain patterns. Retro argues with facts that back up his statements.....he can verify what he says...which by definition makes his statements factual. Shopson on the other hand I've noticed that you continually argue with heresay, rhetoric, and personal opinion. And not just on this thread, that is your Modus operandi. Now that is fine most of the time because these boards are just for that---voicing your opinion. And as long as that is all that your arguing, opinion, yours is just as valid as anybody else's. But when you want to argue fact vs opinion.....well it doesn't quite work Shopson. You don't seem to understand that concept. And until you do Retro will continue to just make you look bad.

Now, with that said, your conclusions 'slamming' shopson were incorrect and not factual and hey I didn't slam you. Why, because you are a comrade, a brother just like shopson. We are all on the same team and each deserves a measure of kindness. We should leave the 'slamming' for our divisional foes. Even then I have a hard time with that, as they love the game like I do. Christ was kind, he never 'slammed' anyone however he always told it like it was, didn't he? I want to be like that dude, and I would bet, so you you.

 

[ozarkram]

Oh thats just great. I had pitchforks and torches and everything. And what am I going to do with all these snacks? Please tell me the book burning is still on.

 

[Vitamike]

Oh thats just great. I had pitchforks and torches and everything. And what am I going to do with all these snacks? Please tell me the book burning is still on.

The mob mentality is easy to adhere to. I see what you are doing here, good for you brother!

 

[ozarkram]

The mob mentality is easy to adhere to. I see what you are doing here, good for you brother!

Vita I am with you on this one. I have no real problem with anyone here. I believe as Ram fans we need to all stick together. There are few enough of us as it is. And we have all been through the meat grinder with this team. None of us agree all the time. Thats the way it should be. But... leave the name calling the slander and slamming out. Retro and many here have worked hard to build this board. Lets not destroy it over pettiness. Lets call our brothers in arms back that have left and welcome new ones with civility.