Jimmy G. or Shanahan... Who should shoulder more of the blame?

[gohusk]

He never had great speed and he's definitely lost a step. He can do well with a really good pass rush.

If he doesn't get a good jam or has help over the top he's toast.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Fans ignore this. They just see they averaged 6+ ypc so assume it's a given they get the first down.

You are correct. And the majority of their runs went for 0-2 yards. do that and you leave JG needing to pass. Not a good situation for him.

Like I said in another post (game thread, I think), at some point we should give a little credit to Spagnolo's halftime adjustments and the Chiefs defense as well. The were able to at least control the run game better.
As for the Niners D, going into this, too many people were anointing them as some alltime great unit. They are good but it's that front drives it. They get pressure and opposing QBs don't have time. The secondary dropped 4 across the field deep and kept everything in front and tackle. By the time the 4th qtr came around, they weren't getting pressure with just 4 nearly as much. They were tired and it showed. Mahomes is shifty and quick and was getting away from arm tackles. Much like Wilson does to defensive fronts and what Murray did to these guys in the regular season.At some point, doesn't a HC have to understand this and try to at least give those guys a breather? Not saying JimmyG shouldn't have made an easy throw to Kittle for a 1st down though. That's all on the QB but some clock milking is in order and your bread and butter is running the ball, you have to at least try.

 

[Myles]

why do you ignore the majority of their runs were for 0-2 yards (or less)?

It is mostly on a drive where they could have nearly run the clock out. 1st down - 5 yards. Then they pas and pass again when nearly anyone could tell you that you run the ball on 2nd and 10 in that situation. Even a 2 yard gain keeps the clock running and you have 3rd and 3.

 

[msgkings322]

IF reports are true, Belichick did all he could to keep Jimmy G and move on from Brady. That would have to count for something.

I mean, if he doesn't overthrow Sanders on one pass play at the end, the whole narrative is reversed. JG is a Super Bowl MVP, Shanahan is a young genius, Andy Reid can't win the big games, etc. Sports are funny that way

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Jimmy is pretty good, but Kaepernick played a lot better in the Super Bowl. People build narratives on Super Bowl performance, so maybe Jimmy's behind Kaepernick as a Niner QB until he can get back to the Super Bowl and play better.

Mike Person is a great story. He gives you all that he can, but it just doesn't seem like he's all that talented. Otherwise he wouldn't bounce around the league like he has.

In the defense of the Niners D, I think that things were tilted in favor of the offense in this game. For example, I don't think there was a single holding call the entire game. Obviously, it's even, so I can't complain, but I just think that the Niners D shouldn't be judged too harshly. The 4th quarter blown lead had a lot more to do with the Niners offense not coming through.

Yeah, you certainly can build a narrative on a SB performance...Joe Namath did...but generally speaking would be their playoff performances overall. Jimmy G, is still a very young QB from an experience standpoint. You'd like to think there is some growth yet to be tapped there.

D...I still feel the same way about the SF DEF...very good, not great. They did better than yeomen's work against Mahomes and the KC OFC for 3 Qtrs.

 

[Tom Ace]

"Top QB in the NFL" you said. Just last week, you're sucking his dick because his team's in the Super Bowl- despite horrible playoff numbers. In the end, there's not enough data to say if Jimmy G. is a better QB for SF than Colin Kaepernick. It did take a while for analysts to claim Kaepernick was a good QB though (and even longer to admit that he might've been overrated). Similarly, both guys had capable supporting casts on offense and a strong defense though.

He didn't have horrible playoffs numbers. He just didn't have much to do before the Super Bowl. He played well, just with limited passing opportunities. A year and a half ago I said he could be a top QB in the NFL. He showed that potential this season, where, as you pointed out last week, he was top 10 in passing yards, completion percentage and TDs.

Held KC to 10 points in the first half. Picked KC off twice, sometimes scoring points off the turnover, almost recovered a fumble from Mahomes too. Defenses get tired as games go on. But Jimmy G. was not good; his picks looked Favre-esque in how reckless the throws were. Blaming the HC for stupid throws of the QB is more than a little unfair. I know you want to defend sunk cost, but a Trent Dilfer-like QB generally isn't going to be the hero. Jimmy G. didn't put his team in a situation to win. Putting all the blame on Shanahan is also disingenuous; the QB can call timeouts too.

[/QUOTE]

The SF defense didn't score their points. The offense did. Jimmy G was very good for 3 quarters. He was 18/21 for something like 180 yards at one point. The only pick he threw that mattered was his first, and they recovered from that fine.

The SF defense played well for 3 quarters, but they blew it much more than Garoppolo did in the fourth. It's a little disingenuous to make excuses for them but not for Garoppolo. Jimmy G didn't lose them this game. He didn't put the team on his back and win it for them at the end either. He was a good QB who had his team in position to win. Unfortunately for them, Mahomes was on the other side and did what he seems to always do.

As I said, in order of responsibility for KC's win: Mahomes, SF D, Shanahan, Jimmy G.

The fact that you still claim Garoppolo is "dilfer like" disqualifies your opinion as worth anything. Dilfer was a subpar-bad QB. Garoppolo is a good-very good QB. To pretend they're of equal value is one of the stupidest things you've ever said, which is saying a lot.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Next year is going to be interesting. The niners were shot out of a cannon this year. They will not be taking anyone by surprise next year. I like what Shanahan is doing as a coach. Most of their big plays come off misdirection schemes. That can work in small doses, but good teams eventually catch on. The biggest problem for the niners going forward is the division is only getting better.

-Rams have a very talented team and coach. I think Goff is the same as JG. He can be good when there is no pressure but struggles otherwise.

-Seattle was right there the entire time and their team had injuries all over the place.

-The Cards are only going to get better. They gave the niners all they could handle in both games last year.

Also, the Cards and Sehawks have a ton of cap space while the niners and rams have next to none.

The niners will be the favorite to win the NFC west next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if they finished 2nd, 3rd or even last.

Gonna be a fun ride.

 

[Tom Ace]

I mean, if he doesn't overthrow Sanders on one pass play at the end, the whole narrative is reversed. JG is a Super Bowl MVP, Shanahan is a young genius, Andy Reid can't win the big games, etc. Sports are funny that way

Exactly. As a Caps fan I've seen this play out in both directions. Usually the bad luck has been against them, but in 2018, they had several bounces go their way, any one of which could have sunk them.

Or just look at the "Tuck Rule" game. What happens if that's called a fumble? No first Super Bowl for them.

 

[Mofo]

He didn't have horrible playoffs numbers. He just didn't have much to do before the Super Bowl. He played well, just with limited passing opportunities. A year and a half ago I said he could be a top QB in the NFL. He showed that potential this season, where, as you pointed out last week, he was top 10 in passing yards, completion percentage and TDs.

And one of the worst in clutch situations and picks.

The SF defense didn't score their points. The offense did. Jimmy G was very good for 3 quarters. He was 18/21 for something like 180 yards at one point. The only pick he threw that mattered was his first, and they recovered from that fine.

Said like a true Baltimore fan? And every pick matters. Because it's a lost opportunity.

The SF defense played well for 3 quarters, but they blew it much more than Garoppolo did in the fourth. It's a little disingenuous to make excuses for them but not for Garoppolo. Jimmy G didn't lose them this game. He didn't put the team on his back and win it for them at the end either. He was a good QB who had his team in position to win. Unfortunately for them, Mahomes was on the other side and did what he seems to always do.

Blaming Jimmy G's shortcomings on Mahomes being good, is a pretty piss-poor excuse.

As I said, in order of responsibility for KC's win: Mahomes, SF D, Shanahan, Jimmy G.

Unless it comes out that Garoppolo is not allowed to change plays or call time-outs, then Shanahan only deserves a limited amount of blame. This offense was described as "balanced" or even run-heavy, so having a QB not screw up is the chief mission.

The fact that you still claim Garoppolo is "dilfer like" disqualifies your opinion as worth anything. Dilfer was a subpar-bad QB. Garoppolo is a good-very good QB. To pretend they're of equal value is one of the stupidest things you've ever said, which is saying a lot.

Uh huh. As if I'm the only person calling out Garoppolo for sub-par play or comparing him to Trent Dilfer. Professional analysts are doing it.

History will note that SF was probably not a powerhouse team. They had a padded regular season, though won in the playoffs early on. Some QBs have the ability to put their team on their back and win in big situations. I'd expect a "Top-12" kinda guy to be able to do that.

 

[Myles]

And one of the worst in clutch situations and picks.


Said like a true Baltimore fan? And every pick matters. Because it's a lost opportunity.

Blaming Jimmy G's shortcomings on Mahomes being good, is a pretty piss-poor excuse.

Unless it comes out that Garoppolo is not allowed to change plays or call time-outs, then Shanahan only deserves a limited amount of blame. This offense was described as "balanced" or even run-heavy, so having a QB not screw up is the chief mission.

Uh huh. As if I'm the only person calling out Garoppolo for sub-par play or comparing him to Trent Dilfer. Professional analysts are doing it.

History will note that SF was probably not a powerhouse team. They had a padded regular season, though won in the playoffs early on. Some QBs have the ability to put their team on their back and win in big situations. I'd expect a "Top-12" kinda guy to be able to do that.

As a Colts fan, I'd still trade Brissett for JG in a heartbeat.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I lean both, with the main thought being to blame Shanhan for putting the game in Jimmy's hands when it simply wasnt needed or necessary.

 

[Mofo]

As a Colts fan, I'd still trade Brissett for JG in a heartbeat.

Yeah, well, you and every Colts fan, probably. I can think of few situations more sucky than having your big, dumb, ugly, facial hair-challenged QB announce his retirement 1 week before the start of the regular season.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Next year is going to be interesting. The niners were shot out of a cannon this year. They will not be taking anyone by surprise next year. I like what Shanahan is doing as a coach. Most of their big plays come off misdirection schemes. That can work in small doses, but good teams eventually catch on. The biggest problem for the niners going forward is the division is only getting better.

-Rams have a very talented team and coach. I think Goff is the same as JG. He can be good when there is no pressure but struggles otherwise.

-Seattle was right there the entire time and their team had injuries all over the place.

-The Cards are only going to get better. They gave the niners all they could handle in both games last year.

Also, the Cards and Sehawks have a ton of cap space while the niners and rams have next to none.

The niners will be the favorite to win the NFC west next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if they finished 2nd, 3rd or even last.

Gonna be a fun ride.

NFC WEST is gonna be a B for a few years but yeah it will also be pretty fun too.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

He didn't have horrible playoffs numbers. He just didn't have much to do before the Super Bowl. He played well, just with limited passing opportunities. A year and a half ago I said he could be a top QB in the NFL. He showed that potential this season, where, as you pointed out last week, he was top 10 in passing yards, completion percentage and TDs.

The SF defense didn't score their points. The offense did. Jimmy G was very good for 3 quarters. He was 18/21 for something like 180 yards at one point. The only pick he threw that mattered was his first, and they recovered from that fine.

The SF defense played well for 3 quarters, but they blew it much more than Garoppolo did in the fourth. It's a little disingenuous to make excuses for them but not for Garoppolo. Jimmy G didn't lose them this game. He didn't put the team on his back and win it for them at the end either. He was a good QB who had his team in position to win. Unfortunately for them, Mahomes was on the other side and did what he seems to always do.

As I said, in order of responsibility for KC's win: Mahomes, SF D, Shanahan, Jimmy G.

The fact that you still claim Garoppolo is "dilfer like" disqualifies your opinion as worth anything. Dilfer was a subpar-bad QB. Garoppolo is a good-very good QB. To pretend they're of equal value is one of the stupidest things you've ever said, which is saying a lot.[/QUOTE]

You can't go 3 for 11 in the 4th Qtr and the game on the line and get a "played well"...he played okay overall imo.

I would rank the order of responsibility...Mahomes, Shanahan, SF D, Jimmy G.

Mahomes continuously extended plays with his feet...sometimes just to avoid a negative play, other times to make a play...there were plays late that the DEF won their assignments and still could get him on the ground.

Shanahan...imo, at the critical points in the game, the playcaller went away from their strength, and away from what was working...the OFC got stagnant and had two quick possessions.

SF D...the back breaker was obviously the 38 yd run by Damien Williams...The OFC gave them zero support late with a 3 min and punt drive, and they followed that up with a drive that lasted only a min...that had to fatigue that DEF leading up to the long TD run.

Jimmy...the overthrow to Sanders was probably his worst pass. The end of the game was not his best for sure, but imo you can't ask him to takeover the game when that hasn't been his role.

 

[poewelch84]

That really isn't true.

49ers vs. Chiefs - Play-By-Play - February 2, 2020 - ESPN

1st series after the Niners had a 20-10 lead to start the 4th quarter.

Run, short pass to Kittle(incomplete), run, pass, penalty, pass, pass, punt. He started with runs and safe passes.

Chiefs get the ball and score in 2:40 seconds. It's now a 3 point game with 6 minutes left.

Next drive is perhaps the one you can criticize but I think hindsight is in play here. Niners series. Run, short pass(incomplete), short pass(incomplete).

Chiefs get the ball again and march down and score in 2:26.

Now time matters and they can't just run the ball. They have to score a TD.

So that one series you could, perhaps, argue that they should have run on 2nd and 5 or 3rd and 5. But throwing the Kittle has been their bread and butter all season. JG simply couldn't hit him.

What people sometimes forget is that teams react to what the other team is doing. The Chiefs were loading up the line and challenging the Niners to throw.

I think it is a huge assumption to believe that the Niners would be able to kill an entire quarter running the ball.

In your own analysis they ran the ball three times in those two drives and passed it six it really should have been the other way around. Shanahan got pass happy in the 4th quarter when he didn't have to.

 

[Robotech]

The niners will be the favorite to win the NFC west next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if they finished 2nd, 3rd or even last.

Gonna be a fun ride.

Hey, I thought GNG and I were the Captain Obviouses around here. You're right, there's nothing predictable about the NFL. I think this is true about all sports, but especially the NFL.

 

[flyerhawk]

In your own analysis they ran the ball three times in those two drives and passed it six it really should have been the other way around. Shanahan got pass happy in the 4th quarter when he didn't have to.

Well maybe. But when you get down to 2 or 3 plays being a run versus a pass, I think you are splitting hairs.

The Chiefs scored 10 points in the first 3 quarters. They scored 21 in the 4th. That's what it really boils down to.

 

[Robotech]

Yeah, you certainly can build a narrative on a SB performance...Joe Namath did...but generally speaking would be their playoff performances overall. Jimmy G, is still a very young QB from an experience standpoint. You'd like to think there is some growth yet to be tapped there.

D...I still feel the same way about the SF DEF...very good, not great. They did better than yeomen's work against Mahomes and the KC OFC for 3 Qtrs.

They didn't win the Super Bowl, so people won't think of them as great. If their offense would've helped them in the 4th quarter and the Niners win, there could be talk of them being great, as they would've finished off an impressive playoff run. They did look shaky down the stretch of the regular season, however.

I'm trying to think of defenses that didn't win the Super Bowl, but are considered great. I consider those Eagles defenses with Reggie White great, but I'm not sure how much recognition they get. Maybe the Dome Patrol Saints. Purple People Eater Vikings.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

They didn't win the Super Bowl, so people won't think of them as great. If their offense would've helped them in the 4th quarter and the Niners win, there could be talk of them being great, as they would've finished off an impressive playoff run. They did look shaky down the stretch of the regular season, however.

I'm trying to think of defenses that didn't win the Super Bowl, but are considered great. I consider those Eagles defenses with Reggie White great, but I'm not sure how much recognition they get. Maybe the Dome Patrol Saints. Purple People Eater Vikings.

If SF had won holding KC to that 10 spot or <20...there would've been some talk about them in the greatness category.

I've been saying most of the playoffs, very good. I saw them play the Falcons when they were battling for seeding and ATL was battling for 2020 jobs. They probably were not full strength in that one. For me it's a personnel thing...some legit studs, and some guys having career years. CB1 had a good season, but really at the end of his prime. They had a great season...Armstead is playing out his 5th yr option and had a killer season...much like Bud Dupree...you want to see that again before parting with a huge multi-yr contract.

Great DEF...I agree not many. The players won multiple SBs, so it doesn't really count, but the Steeler '76 DEF might've been one of the best of the era did not win a SB.

Those Buddy Ryan Eagle DEFs had one great season, but were stacked on the DL with Jerome Brown and Reggie White.

 

[Tom Ace]

And one of the worst in clutch situations and picks.

You'll have to show support for the "clutch situations" part. But even so, that doesn't mean he's overall bad.

Said like a true Baltimore fan? And every pick matters. Because it's a lost opportunity.

When the game is already out of reach, the pick doesn't matter.

Blaming Jimmy G's shortcomings on Mahomes being good, is a pretty piss-poor excuse.

Good thing I didn't do that then. I pointed out that Mahomes is the biggest reason KC won. There are a few people above Jimmy on that list.

Unless it comes out that Garoppolo is not allowed to change plays or call time-outs, then Shanahan only deserves a limited amount of blame. This offense was described as "balanced" or even run-heavy, so having a QB not screw up is the chief mission.

I don't know what you mean by "limited". I already said I'd blame Mahomes and SF's D more than him. But what does Garoppolo calling timeouts have to do with it? Shanahan was responsible for the lack of timeouts at the end of the first half. He even explained why he didn't use them. Garoppolo could have called one, but by the time they got the ball, Shanahan had already cost them over 30 seconds and made it clear they weren't doing that.

Uh huh. As if I'm the only person calling out Garoppolo for sub-par play or comparing him to Trent Dilfer. Professional analysts are doing it.

Ah, good to see you're still using your usual tactics. Tack on a legitimate thing to go with the thing you already said, in order to make it sound legitimate too.

Yes, a lot of people are criticizing Garoppolo. No, no one is comparing him to Dilfer. Again, the fact that you are doing that in all seriousness means your opinion on football is worthless.

History will note that SF was probably not a powerhouse team. They had a padded regular season, though won in the playoffs early on. Some QBs have the ability to put their team on their back and win in big situations. I'd expect a "Top-12" kinda guy to be able to do that.

Oh, good, another bet. They were a powerhouse team. They went 13-3 and made it to the Super Bowl (without all that much trouble against Minnesota or Green Bay). They very nearly won the Super Bowl. Padded regular season or not, that's pretty damn good.

Maybe Garoppolo isn't the guy to carry the team in such situations. Maybe he needs a good team around him that is balanced...just like he has. He can be top-12 and not be Patrick Mahomes. But we also don't know whether any of that is true. He came up big against New Orleans in NO. So, this one time he missed a few passes. That's a tiny sample size. You might want to let it play out a bit more before condemning him (even though you were condemning him for no reason 2 years ago).