Jay Cutler... For discussion

[Mikefive]

Last year due to Jay Cutler injuries, Josh McCown played several games with us. Statistically, his stats were better than Cutler's. He had a better TD/Int ratio by far, despite that he doesn't have Cutler's arm. But an argument can be made that McCown by and large played against weaker defenses than Cutler did. But in the end, those two were at least close in overall effectiveness. Debates about this droned on last year.

Fast forward to today. McCown has joined another team with another coaching staff and supporting cast. He lasted 3 games before being benched in favor of marginal NFL starter Mike Glennon.

In QB effectiveness, is Jay Cutler about the same value as Mike Glennon? An argument can be made there.

Discuss.

 

[toooverbearing]

Let's let the season marinate a little bit. It is easy after a bad game to lose some perspective. Just like after the first three games we've been hearing all of the banter on the radio and in forums about Rogers coming down to Earth and Jay statistically being better than him this year. I thought Jay did a great job in the first half and while I've heard logical reasons for his picks yesterday, personally I think it was him trying to do too much and trying to force big plays because he thought he had to (and maybe he did have to the way our defense was playing (or not playing)).

As far as McCown... I agree with you. Last year was a mirage. He regressed back to what the rest of his career suggested he was... a journeyman backup.

As far as Glennon goes... I would give him some time too. He's a young qb who probably is not yet playing his peak football. Also, let's see who his coordinators and qb coaches end up being. A lot is put on these guys like it is set in stone from the moment they are drafted that they will end up being a boom or a bust... or even a boom or bust at a specific level. But the truth is you are drafting potential but the team environment (coaching and teammates) also have some say in whether that player develops into their potential. Under the right circumstances, maybe Glennon could be a Kurt Warner or Rich Gannon... but under the wrong circumstances he may be a Tim Couch or Ryan Leaf. I'd be interested to see where Tampa goes with their commitment to develop him.

 

[nomoreshoop]

thumbs up for M5, his posts make sense and don't attack people.

 

[Mikefive]

I may not be quite with you here. Or maybe I am.

I don't believe that veteran players change that much from year to year. I just don't. But what changes are externalities to their play. Injuries, drug usage, personal problems, new coach, new system... all these things and others are potentially much more impactful on a player's performance than another birthday. In short, I just don't think Josh McCown went from putting up quality NFL QB numbers to no better than a backup in one year because of any way that HE himself changed. But he had a lot of external things around him that changed. In my view, THAT is where you have to look to explain his poor 2014 performance.

Let's diverge for a moment and look at Chris Conte in 2012 and 2013. In 2012, he looked like a legit NFL safety. He was never the most reliable tackler. But he could make some plays in coverage and looked OK. In 2013, what changed? We suffered significant losses in our defensive front and had to play rookies and off the street guys in front of him and was the worst rushing defense in the league. This put Conte in the position of having to be the TD saver a far higher percentage of the time and his tackling weakness was exposed. Bear fans wanted to burn Conte at the stake. But now 2014 is here and he's back to his 2012 kind of performance. Did Chris Conte change? No. But the players around him did. It should be no surprise that putting better players in front of him, resulting in his having to do less of what he's not so good at make him look better.

It's difficult to make comparisons to players on different teams because there are so many variables that come into play. But when two players have the same coach, system and team around them, comparisons are more reasonable, since there are far fewer variables. Thus, it's difficult to ignore the Cutler-McCown comparisons last year.

When you say that McCown "regressed", that implies that he suddenly became a significantly worse player. I don't accept that. Now he doesn't have Marshall, Jeffery, Bennett and Forte by his side. And he's not running Trestman's offense any more. He's working with Tampa's offense and teammates now. His lack of experience with those guys may be a factor, since he was with the Bears for a couple years before last year. (Glennon was with Tampa previously, too.) It's also possible that Trestman's system works well with McCown's skill set, but Tampa's offense doesn't.

I just have a hard time with "regressed". That's not only unlikely to be true, but it's also a vast oversimplification.

 

[toooverbearing]

I may not be quite with you here. Or maybe I am.

I don't believe that veteran players change that much from year to year. I just don't. But what changes are externalities to their play. Injuries, drug usage, personal problems, new coach, new system... all these things and others are potentially much more impactful on a player's performance than another birthday. In short, I just don't think Josh McCown went from putting up quality NFL QB numbers to no better than a backup in one year because of any way that HE himself changed. But he had a lot of external things around him that changed. In my view, THAT is where you have to look to explain his poor 2014 performance.

Let's diverge for a moment and look at Chris Conte in 2012 and 2013. In 2012, he looked like a legit NFL safety. He was never the most reliable tackler. But he could make some plays in coverage and looked OK. In 2013, what changed? We suffered significant losses in our defensive front and had to play rookies and off the street guys in front of him and was the worst rushing defense in the league. This put Conte in the position of having to be the TD saver a far higher percentage of the time and his tackling weakness was exposed. Bear fans wanted to burn Conte at the stake. But now 2014 is here and he's back to his 2012 kind of performance. Did Chris Conte change? No. But the players around him did. It should be no surprise that putting better players in front of him, resulting in his having to do less of what he's not so good at make him look better.

It's difficult to make comparisons to players on different teams because there are so many variables that come into play. But when two players have the same coach, system and team around them, comparisons are more reasonable, since there are far fewer variables. Thus, it's difficult to ignore the Cutler-McCown comparisons last year.

When you say that McCown "regressed", that implies that he suddenly became a significantly worse player. I don't accept that. Now he doesn't have Marshall, Jeffery, Bennett and Forte by his side. And he's not running Trestman's offense any more. He's working with Tampa's offense and teammates now. His lack of experience with those guys may be a factor, since he was with the Bears for a couple years before last year. (Glennon was with Tampa previously, too.) It's also possible that Trestman's system works well with McCown's skill set, but Tampa's offense doesn't.

I just have a hard time with "regressed". That's not only unlikely to be true, but it's also a vast oversimplification.

When I say "regressed" I didn't really mean he got worse as much as I thought last year was an outlier. The environment like you said was a lot more favorable to him... better receivers, a system that suited his strengths better, the defenses weren't as difficult... I think this year he played a lot closer to what his career had been before last year. With Glennon, its also a cautionary tale on how he could develop or not develop. With the right coaching and players around him he could be that player who comes out of nowhere and looks great. Remember how Drew Brees looked in his first seasons in San Diego? Or Rich Gannon in Minnesota (he wasn't terrible... but he wasn't the same guy he was in Oakland either)? If either of these guys went to the Bears with Terry Shea throwing to David Terrell, I have no doubt they'd be busts.

With Conte... I don't disagree at all. You could even extend that to Major Wright who couldn't even make the cut for his old coach in Tampa even though he also looked good in 2012.

Going back to Cutler... even if he was outplayed last year by McCown, the decision had to be who would be better in the future with Trestman's playbook, not who did better in the past. Cutler also had a promising year before he got injured... it's not like he played poorly in the offense. But with more reps and familiarity, and more of the playbook being implemented, which one would have the higher upside? I think they chose correctly with Jay Cutler based on his physical skills advantage and the fact that his baseline in the offense was still pretty good. Just my opinion.

 

[NCChiFan]

Cutler for all his great abilities, great physical tools can make poor throws... But, he is way more gifted than McCown. Remember, Josh was all but retired. So call Josh a systems guys who got locked into the perfect system for him??!!??!!??!! or say blind luck, but no way is he, or was he ever thought of as a Jay Cutler type talent..... Not now, not before, not ever.

 

[anotheridiot]

Jays biggest problem is trusting his big receivers. The missed TD to wide open Jeffrey throwing the ball 5 feet over his head. A wide open receiver should have the ball in his gut. Jays throws are more the throws we see with great athletic effort by receivers. That "he threw the ball right where it had to be" is fine with tight coverage, but wide open receivers should have the ball in their gut. I saw four of those passes by Jay yesterday, two were to DB's. Rodgers throws will catch the receiver in stride. Thats my rating on QB's, now many get their receivers in stride, how many make their receivers leave their feet to make a catch and take big hits because of it?

There was no choice between Jay and McCown. There was not even a conversation. Todays NFL states you need a "franchise" quarterback. Sad part is, most of these franchise QB's are not in the superbowl. Russell Wilson might break that "curse", he may never win another superbowl when they show him the money.

We are a lucky group of fans, we get two playoff atmosphere games against the fudge every year. 1-9 against the packers is not getting the job done.

 

[beardown07]

Yup. It is un-fucking-acceptable.

 

[Mondio]

I brought this up in another thread, but I think the fact that you have such big, quality receiving targets just covers things up and makes an already slightly undisciplined QB in Cutler, even more loose with the balls he throws. He doesn't have to be completely accurate with every ball and he doesn't always need a receiver to be open to get a completion. It lets him get away with poor decisions that he's prone to making anyway and make enough of them in a game, the other team is going to get some of them. That's my take anyway

 

[Mikefive]

There was no choice between Jay and McCown.

I've seen this multiple times, but I don't understand why. Here's the question that was asked...

In QB effectiveness, is Jay Cutler about the same value as Mike Glennon?

Can somebody tell me why Cutler is not Mike Glennon, other than he's older and has a stronger arm?

 

[richig07]

Lol… I just don't get Bears fans. It's like unreal how much of a roller coaster it is with you people. One win, and they're the best team in the NFC, and as soon as they lose they're fucking pieces of shit who might as well piss their season away.

Yeah, yesterday got away from them, and it was pretty damn ugly in that second half. But for chrissakes, where does one game get Jay Cutler compared to Glennon? lol. By that logic, after the previous two weeks, he was as valuable as Peyton Manning.

Give me a break. Onto the next one.

 

[anotheridiot]

Lol… I just don't get Bears fans. It's like unreal how much of a roller coaster it is with you people. One win, and they're the best team in the NFC, and as soon as they lose they're fucking pieces of shit who might as well piss their season away.

Yeah, yesterday got away from them, and it was pretty damn ugly in that second half. But for chrissakes, where does one game get Jay Cutler compared to Glennon? lol. By that logic, after the previous two weeks, he was as valuable as Peyton Manning.

Give me a break. Onto the next one.

Its just the chance us realistic fans, (also known as haters) get to comment on what we all know and keep saying about cutler, but his sack latchers still dont grasp the reality, so its "on to the next one" when he is a big part of the loss..

Not turning the ball over wins more games than "franchise" quarterbacks do.

Two turnovers 14 points. Not throwing the ball into the end zone at halftime cost the other 7. Throw it in the end zone or throw it away. You do not throw it to the 2.

 

[richig07]

Its just the chance us realistic fans, (also known as haters) get to comment on what we all know and keep saying about cutler, but his sack latchers still dont grasp the reality, so its "on to the next one" when he is a big part of the loss..

Not turning the ball over wins more games than "franchise" quarterbacks do.

Two turnovers 14 points. Not throwing the ball into the end zone at halftime cost the other 7. Throw it in the end zone or throw it away. You do not throw it to the 2.

Yeah, and like you never ignore when Cutler plays well… and then come out of the wood work when he throws a couple of INT's. Give me a break. You're so obsessed with him. It's hilarious. It's also pretty funny how you can spin everything to be the guy's fault. Picking and choosing what to critique him on.

He's on pace for 40 TD's and 16 INT's. He's doing more than fine. I'm not sure what Cutler can do about Brandon Marshall deciding to run a go-route when he was supposed to run a hook.

I specifically have said Cutler sucked in other posts on here. He absolutely deserves a big portion of the blame, and I ABSOLUTELY give it to him. My post literally had nothing to do with Jay. I just hate fans who can't grasp the reality of the NFL. Which is that things change so much week to week, and you just have to keep a level head. It's a young season, and so far the Bears have played some good football and some pretty poor football.

I absolutely hold Jay accountable for yesterday, and for the Buffalo interception as well. He's definitely played a big part in the two losses.

 

[nebearsfan70]

My opinion is changing on Cutler. I have always looked at him as a decent QB, and he is. However, if a QB cannot beat division rivals, he is not elite. Hell, he is not even adequate. The fact is Cutler has only won 1 game against GB, and has had his ass handed to him in the others. This is just not acceptable. I know, I know, the Bears D sucks. But so does GBs, and the Bears only put up 17 on them. Who's at fault?


I am reaching the bitter truth that the Bears will not be a good team unless there are significant upgrades at certain positions. At this point we all pretty much agree the defense sucks so bad that this team will be lucky to win 8. The defense needs to be revamped, starting with the D coaches. But the QB position needs to be upgraded as well. If the Bears had a decent QB, they would have made it a game.

 

[anotheridiot]

Dan Hampton pretty much said its a given call on that marshall play. If the DB is pressing to the inside, you go, if he is on the outside, you stop. DB was on the inside. If it was a pump fake, then throw over his head it would have been a touchdown. Marshall would have stopped the db was right there.

Hampton pretty much blamed that on lack of practice time with marshall for the week. He went on to say things about piddly injuries, but he is clearly not happy with the lack of intensity during practices.

Personally, its like when Rodgers gave that toking a joint sign to his receiver, they both know what they are thinking. To me that sign was, what are these guys high to be running man in this situation?

I dont ignore when cutler plays without throwing interceptions. I commended him for the win in san francisco and some posters here thought I was pushing into the circle jerk and didnt want to hear it. Now he plays like shit and who comments that anything said before was that far off? Nobody. I dont come out of the woodwork, I am shunned to the woodwork for even having an opinion. Well, my opinions were all proven yesterday. We will see how quickly they forget.

 

[wood20ks]

My opinion is changing on Cutler. I have always looked at him as a decent QB, and he is. However, if a QB cannot beat division rivals, he is not elite. Hell, he is not even adequate. The fact is Cutler has only won 1 game against GB, and has had his ass handed to him in the others. This is just not acceptable. I know, I know, the Bears D sucks. But so does GBs, and the Bears only put up 17 on them. Who's at fault?


I am reaching the bitter truth that the Bears will not be a good team unless there are significant upgrades at certain positions. At this point we all pretty much agree the defense sucks so bad that this team will be lucky to win 8. The defense needs to be revamped, starting with the D coaches. But the QB position needs to be upgraded as well. If the Bears had a decent QB, they would have made it a game.

I applaude........Nicely stated.

we all know the Bears def is not great,not great at all,but when we`ve,not we cause I`m not one of them,make up excuses why he`s sucked over the years here,whats your excuse now?

Is his o-line bad?
is his wrs bad?
Is his te bad?
Is his rb bad?
How about Trestman the qb guru or they say he is bad?

What more excuses can someone come up with.........Thats right,now its ALWAYS gonna be the def fault.

Time to get that bum out of town.

Cause as long as he is behind center,we won`t win.........unless of course we get the 85 defense back.:rollseyes:

I predict by seasons end,fans are gonna start booing him if we don`t make a run for the playoffs.

 

[GNG]

Cutler for all his great abilities, great physical tools can make poor throws... But, he is way more gifted than McCown. Remember, Josh was all but retired. So call Josh a systems guys who got locked into the perfect system for him??!!??!!??!! or say blind luck, but no way is he, or was he ever thought of as a Jay Cutler type talent..... Not now, not before, not ever.

Cutler is a poor man's Brett Favre.

 

[Robotech]

Cutler is what he is. He's about a B or B+ level QB who gets erratic at times. That said, I think he's still better than Mike Glennon at this point.

 

[GNG]

Cutler is what he is. He's about a B or B+ level QB who gets erratic at times. That said, I think he's still better than Mike Glennon at this point.

That's not saying much.

 

[Robotech]

That's not saying much.

Well, the question posed by the OP is whether Cutler and Glennon are equals in QB effectiveness. I say Cutler is still better.