Its on the Offense

[skinsdad62]

Bottom line is that it hasn't been addressed. RG3 is getting knocked down, chased down and body slammed to the ground with pressure up the middle and from the right. Its not all on RG3 because Cousins was running for his life as well.

Williams was a great pick and he is the only one with Pro-level talent. Litch was a Shanahan draft pick cut by the Broncos the year after drafted, Monty was cut the year after being drafted by the Panthers, Polumbus was drafted in 2008 and cut in 2010 by the Broncos and then cut again by the Seahawks after a year. Chester is talented by has switched from OLine to TE and back to OLine. He was actually a backup when we signed him from the Ravens. So that is our current OLine, 1 high draft pick, 3 journeymen and player who has switched positions and was a backup. This is not good and the numbers reflect that.

Yes, we have drafted players to help but we can admit that they have not really panned out. Gettis and especially LeRibus have been unable to unseat the current starters and are projecting as backups and nothing more.

At the end of the day, its a terrible OLine. Its ok to have a terrible OLine, but its not ok to put your franchise player and QB of the future in harms way nearly every snap. We cannot stop pressure up the middle. The Dallas game was a perfect example of how mediocre talent bullied our OLine and defeated us. You can say that Shanahan has tried to address the OLine but it hasn't worked and you cannot argue that. I agree that RG3 and the gimmic offense helped mask the mediocrity of the OLine last year. It was not a true reflection of how our OLine really is.

I understand that signing Mack, Monroe and Asamoah is not realistic, but signing 2 of the 3 or signing 2 upgrades (RT and G) is realistic and has to be done unless we want to ruin RG3's career. If we stay on the same road we are, RG3 will have chronic health problems and will be used up in 5 years.

like i said we have tried to address the o/line with draft picks 6 total , and free agents despite having the very old CBA in effect , a lockout , and 36 mil in cap penalties . do we do away with a kerrigan instead for an o/lineman ? we need to address the o/line for sure and next season we should get a good whack at it

 

[j_y19]

we have had an injured qb on the mend and a press corp/fan base who nearly crucified shanahan for getting the guy hurt in the 1st place

now i agree we should use our o/line better but understand why we havent as well

the last few weeks we have seen us take steps to get better and overall i think we are going in the right direction

face it RG3 had his worst game as a pro and that is why the offense stunk it up

I don't understand why we haven't used our OLine better and no one has yet offered a coherent answer. I still can't for the life of me understand why we want to take a multidimensional threat at QB and try and turn him into a single threat pocket passer, at least at this stage. Our OL is not designed, nor capable, of holding a pocket for long. RG3 is unfamiliar with feeling pressure in a pocket and what to do if he does (he has no idea how to dump off to a RB in the flat). Because of this, he is in more danger in the pocket (and we are a worse team) than if he is on the move with designed rollouts and bootlegs. He has the sideline to use for protection and can always tuck and run, keeping the defense honest.

It would seem to me that the prudent thing to at this point is to revert back to the scheme that we employed last year. Get RG3 around the edge and force the secondary to make a decision to either come up and stop his running or stay back and cover. The difference being that he be given the instructions that if he runs, he gets out of bounds or down well before contact. Then we can start to sprinkle in some drop back plays to keep the D off kilter. In the offseason, we make a focus of both improving our OL for pocket protection as well as working with RG3 to understand how to read defenses in the pocket and make quicker decisions. I would give him any Peyton game tape and watch that master read a defense. RG3 is smart, he can do this, he just has never had to before. Next year, we increase the drop back plays as he is more prepared, our OL is better at protection in this scheme and we have a more complete WR corps.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

I don't understand why we haven't used our OLine better and no one has yet offered a coherent answer. I still can't for the life of me understand why we want to take a multidimensional threat at QB and try and turn him into a single threat pocket passer, at least at this stage. Our OL is not designed, nor capable, of holding a pocket for long. RG3 is unfamiliar with feeling pressure in a pocket and what to do if he does (he has no idea how to dump off to a RB in the flat). Because of this, he is in more danger in the pocket (and we are a worse team) than if he is on the move with designed rollouts and bootlegs. He has the sideline to use for protection and can always tuck and run, keeping the defense honest.

It would seem to me that the prudent thing to at this point is to revert back to the scheme that we employed last year. Get RG3 around the edge and force the secondary to make a decision to either come up and stop his running or stay back and cover. The difference being that he be given the instructions that if he runs, he gets out of bounds or down well before contact. Then we can start to sprinkle in some drop back plays to keep the D off kilter. In the offseason, we make a focus of both improving our OL for pocket protection as well as working with RG3 to understand how to read defenses in the pocket and make quicker decisions. I would give him any Peyton game tape and watch that master read a defense. RG3 is smart, he can do this, he just has never had to before. Next year, we increase the drop back plays as he is more prepared, our OL is better at protection in this scheme and we have a more complete WR corps.

This is what I can't figure out either. I understand using a modified approach from last year to develop Griffs skill set (and this is what I think they are trying to achieve), but they are abandoning what works for these guys at inexplicable times, and it leaves me stymied. Playing from behind, etc., mitigates this somewhat, but is not enough of a answer to explain why other times. Even the 34/43 defense explanation doesnt completely explain it. We've had success with rollouts, screens and bootlegs against either defensive schemes. Stretch right has been a consistent weakness all year. Why keep going there? Use TW and stretch left more than....again, play to your strengths. Drives me crazy sometimes.

It feels like there is a disconnect with HOW to properly develop Griff as a passer, while using the strengths of the talent we have. Im beginning to think this is the most likely reason. And that really is a problem. We do not have the ability to change our Oline completely mid season. You gotta use the guys we have, smarter.

 

[skinsdad62]

I don't understand why we haven't used our OLine better and no one has yet offered a coherent answer. I still can't for the life of me understand why we want to take a multidimensional threat at QB and try and turn him into a single threat pocket passer, at least at this stage. Our OL is not designed, nor capable, of holding a pocket for long. RG3 is unfamiliar with feeling pressure in a pocket and what to do if he does (he has no idea how to dump off to a RB in the flat). Because of this, he is in more danger in the pocket (and we are a worse team) than if he is on the move with designed rollouts and bootlegs. He has the sideline to use for protection and can always tuck and run, keeping the defense honest.

It would seem to me that the prudent thing to at this point is to revert back to the scheme that we employed last year. Get RG3 around the edge and force the secondary to make a decision to either come up and stop his running or stay back and cover. The difference being that he be given the instructions that if he runs, he gets out of bounds or down well before contact. Then we can start to sprinkle in some drop back plays to keep the D off kilter. In the offseason, we make a focus of both improving our OL for pocket protection as well as working with RG3 to understand how to read defenses in the pocket and make quicker decisions. I would give him any Peyton game tape and watch that master read a defense. RG3 is smart, he can do this, he just has never had to before. Next year, we increase the drop back plays as he is more prepared, our OL is better at protection in this scheme and we have a more complete WR corps.

isnt that what we are doing now ? the staff was careful in managing RG3 as most on this board said they should and now we bash them for doing just that ?

RG3 wasnt ready for all that early on as for the o/line we have been harping on that for years .

but again i will tell you that the salary cap penalties hurt us and we had to make do with what we have . we have drafted 6 guys to help out and so far it hasnt worked out although gettis could

next off season we could address a couple of o/line spots

 

[j_y19]

You're missing our point. I'm not bashing anyone for what talent we have or haven't brought in. I understand the limitations they have had to work with. Maybe we missed on Leriebus and Gettis, but they should get until their 3rd year before we make that verdict. What Cali and I are saying is that we are trying to force the limited talent to do something that they are not good at way too often, pocket pass protect. Last year, RG3 took a standard drop back way less times than this year. We did far more designed plays to move the pocket and get RG3 outside in space, where his natural abilities can shine. I was not one of those bashing the staff for using RG3 in this manner last year. I was bashing RG3 for not avoiding hits. He does a better job of that now (still not perfect). Moreover, because of our OL weaknesses in this area, we usually have to keep an extra player in to help block, resulting in only 2 WRs going out. They both end up being double teamed, which only exasperates the issue RG3 has on locking in on receivers and forcing throws while in the pocket.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

isnt that what we are doing now ? the staff was careful in managing RG3 as most on this board said they should and now we bash them for doing just that ?

RG3 wasnt ready for all that early on as for the o/line we have been harping on that for years .

but again i will tell you that the salary cap penalties hurt us and we had to make do with what we have . we have drafted 6 guys to help out and so far it hasnt worked out although gettis could

next off season we could address a couple of o/line spots

That's just it dad. I get the first 4 games and easing Griff back in and all the hiccups we saw on offense as a result. But since the Dallas game, where we saw a jump in Griffs mobility, that is where there begins the disconnect with using our players smartly, consistently.

You're points regarding the talent at OLine not being addressed or spot fixed with FA and cap hits are spot on. Regardless, there have been opportunities to use the talent we have better and we haven't capitized on that. We've actually placed our players in situations that they are almost guaranteed to fail in, at times. And that is what is inexplicable.

I agree that we will/must address the Oline this next season. I just want us to maximize what we HAVE for the remainder of THIS year. I'm sure this is the goal of the team. Some of this can be attributed to sheer LACK of execution as well. It's hard to pinpoint, given each week it seems to be something different is not working.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

You're missing our point. I'm not bashing anyone for what talent we have or haven't brought in. I understand the limitations they have had to work with. Maybe we missed on Leriebus and Gettis, but they should get until their 3rd year before we make that verdict. What Cali and I are saying is that we are trying to force the limited talent to do something that they are not good at way too often, pocket pass protect. Last year, RG3 took a standard drop back way less times than this year. We did far more designed plays to move the pocket and get RG3 outside in space, where his natural abilities can shine. I was not one of those bashing the staff for using RG3 in this manner last year. I was bashing RG3 for not avoiding hits. He does a better job of that now (still not perfect). Moreover, because of our OL weaknesses in this area, we usually have to keep an extra player in to help block, resulting in only 2 WRs going out. They both end up being double teamed, which only exasperates the issue RG3 has on locking in on receivers and forcing throws while in the pocket.

Lol, you're explanation is much better than my own...

 

[skinsdad62]

Lol, you're explanation is much better than my own...

you are missing my point , and that is RG3 wasnt healthy enough to implement your suggestions . the last 3 games he seems to be himself mobility wise but now his progression as a qb arent there yet .

the team chose to protect him and limit his mobility at the beginning of the year . i cant fault them for that

 

[j_y19]

you are missing my point , and that is RG3 wasnt healthy enough to implement your suggestions . the last 3 games he seems to be himself mobility wise but now his progression as a qb arent there yet .

the team chose to protect him and limit his mobility at the beginning of the year . i cant fault them for that

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not talking about naked bootlegs, I'm talking about designed movement of the pocket. Your OL moves with the rollout. It is, in fact, what they are good at, blocking on the run. The don't need to power block, just get their bodies in position to be in the way. It also wears down a DL as they are constantly in chase mode. RG3 was healthy enough even in the first game to take a snap and roll out. He probably wasn't healthy enough to be the running threat that he is now.

In any event, he got hit 18 times on sunday while in the pocket. How is that protecting him?

 

[Caliskinsfan]

you are missing my point , and that is RG3 wasnt healthy enough to implement your suggestions . the last 3 games he seems to be himself mobility wise but now his progression as a qb arent there yet .

the team chose to protect him and limit his mobility at the beginning of the year . i cant fault them for that

If your point is that in the LAST 3 games, Griff has not been healthy enough or has not progressed as a passer enough to implement playing to your Olines strengths and his, then I respectfully disagree. If you're saying that part of the problem is execution, I do agree that is a huge part of the problem, but not all of it. Maybe I am misunderstanding something else.

As to protecting Griff at the beginning of the year, I totally agree.

 

[skinz2winz]

GK, you're not defending our OL, are you? Last year we had a healthy RG3 that was always on the move. He masked much of the weaknesses of our OL. Defenses now know what our achilles heel is. It is not RT, but max pressure right up the middle. collapse the pocket on RG3. He tends to lock in on one receiver until he is open and is somewhat oblivious to the pocket collapsing until it is too late.

Due to traveling, work etc,until today to post my comments about the game. I was in Denver on Sunday to watch the game from some pretty darn good box seats that allowed me to see every play develop and here are my observations of Sunday's game.

1. The fans in Denver were great and compassionate to Skins fans regardless of the score.
2. An idiot Skins fan got his arse kicked after the game for being a raven lunatic in his section before
continuing his antics while leaving the stadium. What an embarrassment to us all I might add.
3. Our play calling once up 21-7 was just plain awful by Kyle. This trend continues each week. Run
the damn ball and keep Manning on his sideline. Is it that hard to comprehend.
4. Our OL is terrible with the exception of Williams who gave up the strip sack of RG3. Please stop
defending them any longer. A great portion of run success is due to the zone scheme and how hard
Morris & Helu run.
5. Griffin did hold on to the ball at times but when his first progression was covered (much of the time)
since we have no qualified NFL WR's except Garcon, he was looking at the back of jersey's running
long routes. Yes, I know he missed a TD to the corner in this game.
6. Can we just replace Rocca now? The guy blows.
7. Defend the defense all you want, they are bad regardless of where they start on the field. That
starts with Haslett. How many times did we NOT cover the RB out of the backfield or even a TE
for that matter?
8. Our tackling did improve somewhat on Sunday. (There, a positive)
9. Don't get me started about our WR's. They stink! Does every Griffin pass have to hit our WR's in the
hands in order for them to catch it? Does Morgan not know how to throttle down in zone coverage
over the middle to catch a ball. It's likely he drops it should it hit him in the chest/hands anyway.
10. How much longer does Haslett & Co continue to call his front very good? Players such as Coefield,
Goldsten, Bowen etc were non existent. Heck, Baker is more relevant at this point.
11. Watching Denver's offense, what does Kyle not get? Manning killed us with dump off's, short routes,
crossing routes etc. His QB can't even run or throw a spiral for that matter but boy, he sure was
protected all day for the most part.
12. Body language of the players says it all, they have all but mailed it in on this coaching staff.

My buddy test me during the game (49'er fan) and says, "Dude, sorry you have NO playmakers. At least I have Gore, Davis, Crabtree, Kaepernick, Boldin, Bowman, Willis, Smith 1, Smith 2, Whitner".
He is right, in 5 years with Shanny & Son, we have little to no playmakers, REAL playmakers who can make a difference on an NFL field. Our team is a long way off from contending for any SB and someone has to be held accountable for the albatross I witnessed on Sunday. I'm pointing the finger at one guy!!!

Regardless, I supported my Skins to the bitter end even when Cousins (who devalued himself) threw his pick 6 to DRC and took mass amounts of chit from the surrounding Broncos fans all in good jest mind you. I did have a blast and there was some good play out there by Amerson, Hall, Morris & Helu just to name a few. The team has a LONG way to go to even deserve contending talk and I didn't think this would take Shannahan & Co 8 years to accomplish this.

 

[gkekoa]

I think Mike and Kyle both feel a little guilty about RG3's leg and just like RG3 have listened to people, including people here, claim RG3 should stay in the pocket. I think this has contributed to the poor play-calling and lack of creativity in the game plan.

The two games prior to DEN, I had thought we turned the corner and realized RG3 needs to be a threat. I'm not sure what happened in DEN. It was the most absurd thing I have ever seen.

This is a typical Shanahan OL in their strength is agility. They won't overpower any other team so we need to get DL moving. This creates holes.

 

[duke1861]

I think Mike and Kyle both feel a little guilty about RG3's leg and just like RG3 have listened to people, including people here, claim RG3 should stay in the pocket. I think this has contributed to the poor play-calling and lack of creativity in the game plan.

The two games prior to DEN, I had thought we turned the corner and realized RG3 needs to be a threat. I'm not sure what happened in DEN. It was the most absurd thing I have ever seen.

This is a typical Shanahan OL in their strength is agility. They won't overpower any other team so we need to get DL moving. This creates holes.

I could care less what scheme they run. The scheme needs to be "not get the Quarterback killed". They should try that one first. Again, it wasn't just RG3 as Cousins was being murdered in the few series he saw.

 

[j_y19]

Here's my question. How does letting your QB get hit 18 times against Denver while in the pocket protect him?

 

[skinsdad62]

If your point is that in the LAST 3 games, Griff has not been healthy enough or has not progressed as a passer enough to implement playing to your Olines strengths and his, then I respectfully disagree. If you're saying that part of the problem is execution, I do agree that is a huge part of the problem, but not all of it. Maybe I am misunderstanding something else.

As to protecting Griff at the beginning of the year, I totally agree.

i said at the beginning of the year they protected him .

j-y19 the "moving pocket" still means Rg3 has to roll with the pocket and at the beginning of the year he didnt seem healthy enough to do it

also RG3 is at fault on a lot of the hits he took by holding the ball too long and not getting rid of it when there was no play

the o/line is avg at best . we need help there i get it but it seems only now has RG3 been healthy enough (now meaning last 3 weeks ) to do it . and who knows that other knee injury could have an effect on him some more

 

[SoCalWizFan]

i said at the beginning of the year they protected him .

j-y19 the "moving pocket" still means Rg3 has to roll with the pocket and at the beginning of the year he didnt seem healthy enough to do it

also RG3 is at fault on a lot of the hits he took by holding the ball too long and not getting rid of it when there was no play

the o/line is avg at best . we need help there i get it but it seems only now has RG3 been healthy enough (now meaning last 3 weeks ) to do it . and who knows that other knee injury could have an effect on him some more

Good post. We both agree that a lot of this relates to the fact that RG3 is a work in progress. He got away with a lot of things in college & in his rookie year that masked his shortcomings. He needs work in areas such as pocket presence, field vision, clock mgmt, etc. I am sure that he will use his time wisely over the offseason to improve in these areas.

As several have stated - the rehab took away from this time last offseason. To suggest that his wedding plans interfered with this is laughable. He was working out at 5 am on his bachelor party weekend. You also have to allow the guy to have somewhat of life. Trust me - he will rededicate himself to being a better QB.

 

[skinz2winz]

I have seen the progress both Luck & Wilson have made over the past 1.5 seasons. To say they are better QB's than Griffin would be absurd. Not just because he is our QB either but, he is more athletic than both, has as strong as arm and does things (evident last season) that the other two can't. So that leaves me with a finger pointing at the scheme, play calling and over all direction of the offense. In this case, both Luck & Wilson have it better thus allowing them to progress as QB's where as Griffin is fighting the improved progress due to the Shannahan's short comings.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I have seen the progress both Luck & Wilson have made over the past 1.5 seasons. To say they are better QB's than Griffin would be absurd. Not just because he is our QB either but, he is more athletic than both, has as strong as arm and does things (evident last season) that the other two can't. So that leaves me with a finger pointing at the scheme, play calling and over all direction of the offense. In this case, both Luck & Wilson have it better thus allowing them to progress as QB's where as Griffin is fighting the improved progress due to the Shannahan's short comings.

You have to go beyond that. First of all - RG3 is better athletically but obviously he has some shortcomings that require additional work on his part as well as the coaches. His field vision, pocket presence, etc need a fair amt of improvement. This isn't just about the play calling and surrounding talent - this also falls on him. However - as I previously mentioned - I have faith that he can improve in these areas over the next several years. To assume that he is a finished product at this time would be foolish.

Another area that needs to be considered is the surrounding talent. Consider Wilson. He really didn't do anything special last Mon against the Rams. However - his defense bailed him out since they are dominant. By comparison the Redskins defense is inconsistent & at best could be alright but certainly not dominant. The QB is not the end all - be all for any team.

With some additions, tweaks, and improvements by RG3 this team could be much improved & that is possible with or without Shanahan - I would not be too upset if they go in either direction.