Its on the Offense

[deanpet21]

The Phil game was a direct result of the offense not getting first downs and the defense being on the field all night. Same with the Packers although it is Rodgers. The bottom line is when your offense cant get first downs and sustain drives to put up POINTS your defense is going to suffer I don't care who it is. Jy19 we had this argument earlier in the year. Its the offense that is killing this team. Not the defense.

 

[Krusheasy]

Griffin was let down by the line. He was let down by the receivers not making the plays.

But, I couldn't tell you how many times I heard Sonny say Griffin was not "seeing the field" today

Or how many times Cooley said another receiver was open.

I'm sure we've all noticed that Griffin locks into is favorite receivers.

These are things to be expected from a second year quarterback.

Griffin is adjusting to becoming a pocket quarterback & struggling, which is understandable. However, his long term health/success out weighs his short term failures, IMO.

That's the thing, Krush.......why the urgency to make him a pocket passer? He does great when we move the pocket and he rolls out. It freezes the defense because the don't know if he is going to run or not. he actually is very accurate throwing on the run. It also helps our OL, especially with the pressure up the middle. So why are we trying to make him a pocket passer, at least with this OL? Can somebody please explain that to me?

It's so easy to be shortsighted to say run for you life, you're mobile .... we need to win today. Win now. When realistically we're not going to make a serious push for the superbowl & all we're doing is jeopardizing our investment.

But eventually we'll reach a point where the franchise can be considered relevant contenders for a superbowl. Once we have available salary cap to address the secondary & O-line through free agency ... along with first round picks in 2015.

In order to get the value of 3 first round picks out of Griffin we need to make a superbowl run. I think everything we do now is building to that point ... everything is building toward 2015.

It comes down to building for the future.

... I'd like to add

While I'm sure we all will take every win we can get

Alot of us have disagreed on if playing Griffin past the Baltimore game last season was a good idea.

If we had to choose between a second major knee injury for Griffin or a conference title, the decision is easy. But they always are in hindsight.

And while Griffin is adding to his repertoire of being that dual threat QB, we'll take every win we can get ...

a QB who is a mobile threat, like Griffin is with his speed, is dangerous

a QB who is a threat in the pocket, like Romo is, is dangerous.

a QB who can master both of those skill ... will be legendary.

 

[duke1861]

It's definitely on the offense. There is no question to that and the defense deserves a ton of credit for how well they played.

They forced 4 turnovers and scored 7 points.

They were great until Rocca shanked that punt. Did anybody not thing Denver was going to get a TD? Then RG3 had a pick. Denver got 14 points right there on 60 yards of offense.

RG3 missed pass after pass. Even when he saw the open player like Josh Morgan, he missed the pass. As much as many of you would like to see RG3 a "pocket passer," it's foolish to make him that way. By the time we find out if he is, it will be time to sign him to a big contract. Right now he has no pocket presence at all.

The offensive line is not a good traditional pass blocking line but can hold up if the run threat is there. If we get one dimensional, we cannot win.

We have been talking about this since the days on the ESPN board Gkekoa, the OLine is horrible and the front office has done little to nothing to upgrade it since drafting Williams. Our interior OLine cannot stop a simple bull rush and Polumbus is awful. I understand we had 36 million stolen from us, but that doesn't stop RG3 from getting murdered out there.

I am honestly thinking we need to sign/draft 3 new OLinemen (RT, C and RG) this offseason. RG3 cannot continue to take the beatings he is on a weekly basis. Eugene Monroe would probably be a good start along with Jon Asamoah. I might even kick the tires with Alex Mack. The OLine is literaly that bad. Bottom line, I don't care how they do it, but they have to protect RG3 if this team is going to progress.

 

[gkekoa]

People still haven't figured it out. OLs are not comprised of all first round talent. There is usually only one...maybe two first round talent OL on a good OL. Most are comprised of veterans and a QB with pocket presence. While our OL does not hold up great, our QB does them few favors by holding the ball too long.

This is the same OL we had last season that led the NFL in rushing and led us to the division title for the first time in a decade.

 

[Krusheasy]

This is the same OL we had last season that led the NFL in rushing and led us to the division title for the first time in a decade.

Having a new gimmick offense, with a mobile QB, helped.

That OL doesn't deserve all the credit either, alot of credit goes to the WR, TE & FB going out there and getting it done.

Nobody is calling for 5 first round picks on the OL. But, we need to invest in the OL to protect our investment at QB. A good start would be a upgrade for Polumbus/Montgomery. Montgomery gets manhandled by 3-4 NT & the only reason Polumbus has a roster spot is becouse of Brown. I hate giving the boys credit, but their new center looks like a beast. Would be great if we could find something similar ... just not in the first round, lol.

Wouldn't hurt if LeRibeus made a contribution either.

 

[j_y19]

... I'd like to add

While I'm sure we all will take every win we can get

Alot of us have disagreed on if playing Griffin past the Baltimore game last season was a good idea.

If we had to choose between a second major knee injury for Griffin or a conference title, the decision is easy. But they always are in hindsight.

And while Griffin is adding to his repertoire of being that dual threat QB, we'll take every win we can get ...

a QB who is a mobile threat, like Griffin is with his speed, is dangerous

a QB who is a threat in the pocket, like Romo is, is dangerous.

a QB who can master both of those skill ... will be legendary.

Krush, you are missing my point. My question is why do we try and make this transition to pocket QB now? We do not have the OL built to protect any QB in a pocket. I can see the reasons down the road why you want to develop pocket passing skills in RG3, but when he is hit 18 times in 35 drop backs, our OL is not able to protect him in a pocket. So you do what we did last year and you move the pocket. You roll him out. You call boot legs. It makes him very dangerous. You start to integrate some pocket passing in certain situations. As his skill set grows in reading defenses and seeing the entire field and our OL is upgraded, you increase the use of pocket based plays.

SO again, my question is why now?

 

[j_y19]

People still haven't figured it out. OLs are not comprised of all first round talent. There is usually only one...maybe two first round talent OL on a good OL. Most are comprised of veterans and a QB with pocket presence. While our OL does not hold up great, our QB does them few favors by holding the ball too long.

This is the same OL we had last season that led the NFL in rushing and led us to the division title for the first time in a decade.

GK, you're not defending our OL, are you? Last year we had a healthy RG3 that was always on the move. He masked much of the weaknesses of our OL. Defenses now know what our achilles heel is. It is not RT, but max pressure right up the middle. collapse the pocket on RG3. He tends to lock in on one receiver until he is open and is somewhat oblivious to the pocket collapsing until it is too late.

 

[gkekoa]

I am defending the OL to an extent.

RG3 is a lot like Vick in they hold the ball too long. They are so used to being much more athletic than their opposition that they think they can extend every play. This causes RG3 to get hit a lot.

Another thing that is hurting this OL is play-calling. The best way to slow down a pass rush is commitment to the run. An occasional screen wouldn't hurt either.

The answer is not high draft picks and high priced free agents. Somebody suggested Eugene Monroe (first rounder), Alex Mack (first rounder), and Jon Asamoah (third rounder) to accompany our first rounder in Trent. It's not feasible to spend that much money on the OL.

 

[j_y19]

I am defending the OL to an extent.

RG3 is a lot like Vick in they hold the ball too long. They are so used to being much more athletic than their opposition that they think they can extend every play. This causes RG3 to get hit a lot.

Another thing that is hurting this OL is play-calling. The best way to slow down a pass rush is commitment to the run. An occasional screen wouldn't hurt either.

The answer is not high draft picks and high priced free agents. Somebody suggested Eugene Monroe (first rounder), Alex Mack (first rounder), and Jon Asamoah (third rounder) to accompany our first rounder in Trent. It's not feasible to spend that much money on the OL.

I absolutely agree with everything you say. RG3 does hold the ball too long while locked into one receiver waiting for him to get open. Interestingly enough, I don't remember him doing this last year. I also agree that we don't need to spend big bucks on OL. We already have the linchpin in Williams. But we do need to at least replace, probably via FA, Montgomery and one of either Licht (he's having a terrible year), Chester, or Polombus.

 

[sublime4eva]

I thought the defense played well enough today. The offense is absolutely horrible. Embarrassing. We can't score points or get first downs. This passing offense is a joke right now. RG3 was so bad today. Has to be the worst offensive performance of the year. The defense had 4 turnovers and scored again.

I cant believe our offense is this bad. Who is responsible? Kyle, Rg3, WR's, or Mike?? Someone please take responsibility.

Our line was awful, hard for me to blame any of this on Griffin,he was hammered in the pocket yesterday, the O-line was a joke!

 

[deanpet21]

you have to blame Griffen too b/c of bad decision missing open WR's. He did not play well yesterday

 

[Caliskinsfan]

Griffin had arguably the worst game of his NFL career yesterday. It's very disheartening to have seen him regress this week, but this will happen as he continues to grow and develop. QB play was probably the biggest reason for the 4th quarter implosion yesterday. It's not all on him, but yesterday, I feel it was the biggest factor. Yes, there was more pressure than ever, but Griff (and Kyle) HAVE to adjust and move the pocket. Where was that mobile pocket? Also, as mentioned by Cooley, I'm not sure Griff is really seeing what's happening on the other side of the ball. He has to step up. I think he can and will.

The head scratcher about this team so far this season is that each week, different parts of the team seem to break down. We have yet to see any of the 3 phases of the game, clicking for an entire 60 minutes, and then taking that momentum into the next week. Quite frustrating. Makes it almost impossible to pinpoint any one thing as the problem. Its a little bit of everything, everywhere.

Reality is, "we are just not that good" right now. We dont have the talent to be an elite team, but we CAN be a dangerous, good team, every week. We really do have that ability. Now, I want to see it on the field, please.

 

[j_y19]

We have to remember that Griffin has never had to learn to read a defense and go through progressions. What he did in college and for the most part last year was roll out, create havoc in then secondary and either hit an open receiver as a result of that havoc or run the ball. When he did drop back, it was a surprise to the defense so they froze. Now, with out any preseason, we are trying to teach him to be a pocket QB on the go. With an OL that can't pocket protect and mediocre receivers that struggle to get separation. Defenses are basically thanking their lucky stars that we have changed thinking on this and are saying that they will risk RG3 beating them by staying in the pocket. They bring 5-6 every time, usually right up the middle. Grffin, for some inexplicable reason, doesn't really try and escape, he just back pedals, keeping his eyes on one receiver.

This is an issue that will not be solved this year. He also compounds this by not knowing when to just toss the ball away. He waits, and waits, and waits until a defender is just bearing down on him so that he can't get any mustard even behind a throw away.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

We have to remember that Griffin has never had to learn to read a defense and go through progressions. What he did in college and for the most part last year was roll out, create havoc in then secondary and either hit an open receiver as a result of that havoc or run the ball. When he did drop back, it was a surprise to the defense so they froze. Now, with out any preseason, we are trying to teach him to be a pocket QB on the go. With an OL that can't pocket protect and mediocre receivers that struggle to get separation. Defenses are basically thanking their lucky stars that we have changed thinking on this and are saying that they will risk RG3 beating them by staying in the pocket. They bring 5-6 every time, usually right up the middle. Grffin, for some inexplicable reason, doesn't really try and escape, he just back pedals, keeping his eyes on one receiver.

This is an issue that will not be solved this year. He also compounds this by not knowing when to just toss the ball away. He waits, and waits, and waits until a defender is just bearing down on him so that he can't get any mustard even behind a throw away.

Exactly. Well stated. Only thing I would add, is that I DO think we will see Griff improve (not master) in these areas this year. The key will be keeping a mobile pocket for him as he learns and develops. And have a little help from those wide receivers who are dropping balls... We must play to our players strengths. We come up short, every time, when we don't.

 

[j_y19]

Exactly. Well stated. Only thing I would add, is that I DO think we will see Griff improve (not master) in these areas this year. The key will be keeping a mobile pocket for him as he learns and develops. And have a little help from those wide receivers who are dropping balls... We must play to our players strengths. We come up short, every time, when we don't.

I think as he becomes more comfortable with the mental part of his recovery, i think his accuracy will return. I just don't see how he can improve on an unlearned skill set with no supporting cast this year. But your point about moving the pocket is valid. We need to do this much more both to protect RG3 and to give our OL an chance to block someone. We also need to get a RB middle screen into the playbook. Want to beat max blitz up the middle? Run a screen where the LBs just blitzed from. Helu will pick up yards in big chunks and they will have to start thinking twice about bringing 6 and 7 on blitzes.

 

[skinsdad62]

ok exactly tell me what we havent done to address the o/line ?

we have used draft picks on it , signed free agents with the money we had , so just what arent we doing ?

we have drafted 4 o/lineman in3 drafts or one a year 2 are still on the team williams and hurt

we have signed quite a few free agents with 2 years of cap penalties , a lock out , and one under the old CBA

so what would you do better in hindsight ?

i agree we need help but please dont tell me we havent tried to address it

 

[Caliskinsfan]

The talent we have must be used smarter. We need to game plan to our Olines strengths. Our Oline is built to complement a run game and a mobile pocket. That is what has been missing consistently this year. If you have to go into "pass" mode and go away from the run which is our strength, that pocket HAS to be mobile with bootlegs, screens etc... This is an area we continually come up short.

 

[j_y19]

The talent we have must be used smarter. We need to game plan to our Olines strengths. Our Oline is built to complement a run game and a mobile pocket. That is what has been missing consistently this year. If you have to go into "pass" mode and go away from the run which is our strength, that pocket HAS to be mobile with bootlegs, screens etc... This is an area we continually come up short.

BINGO!

 

[skinsdad62]

BINGO!

we have had an injured qb on the mend and a press corp/fan base who nearly crucified shanahan for getting the guy hurt in the 1st place

now i agree we should use our o/line better but understand why we havent as well

the last few weeks we have seen us take steps to get better and overall i think we are going in the right direction

face it RG3 had his worst game as a pro and that is why the offense stunk it up

 

[duke1861]

ok exactly tell me what we havent done to address the o/line ?

we have used draft picks on it , signed free agents with the money we had , so just what arent we doing ?

we have drafted 4 o/lineman in3 drafts or one a year 2 are still on the team williams and hurt

we have signed quite a few free agents with 2 years of cap penalties , a lock out , and one under the old CBA

so what would you do better in hindsight ?

i agree we need help but please dont tell me we havent tried to address it

Bottom line is that it hasn't been addressed. RG3 is getting knocked down, chased down and body slammed to the ground with pressure up the middle and from the right. Its not all on RG3 because Cousins was running for his life as well.

Williams was a great pick and he is the only one with Pro-level talent. Litch was a Shanahan draft pick cut by the Broncos the year after drafted, Monty was cut the year after being drafted by the Panthers, Polumbus was drafted in 2008 and cut in 2010 by the Broncos and then cut again by the Seahawks after a year. Chester is talented by has switched from OLine to TE and back to OLine. He was actually a backup when we signed him from the Ravens. So that is our current OLine, 1 high draft pick, 3 journeymen and player who has switched positions and was a backup. This is not good and the numbers reflect that.

Yes, we have drafted players to help but we can admit that they have not really panned out. Gettis and especially LeRibus have been unable to unseat the current starters and are projecting as backups and nothing more.

At the end of the day, its a terrible OLine. Its ok to have a terrible OLine, but its not ok to put your franchise player and QB of the future in harms way nearly every snap. We cannot stop pressure up the middle. The Dallas game was a perfect example of how mediocre talent bullied our OLine and defeated us. You can say that Shanahan has tried to address the OLine but it hasn't worked and you cannot argue that. I agree that RG3 and the gimmic offense helped mask the mediocrity of the OLine last year. It was not a true reflection of how our OLine really is.

I understand that signing Mack, Monroe and Asamoah is not realistic, but signing 2 of the 3 or signing 2 upgrades (RT and G) is realistic and has to be done unless we want to ruin RG3's career. If we stay on the same road we are, RG3 will have chronic health problems and will be used up in 5 years.