Is Vanderbilt the premier college baseball school?

[Red_Alert]

South Florida Nittany Lion

 

[CatsTopPac]

I don't know about all of this. The premier? Hell no, and that's not even debatable. No one can convince me that because a team has two CWS appearances, and one title in their program's history (even they both came in the last 4 years), they are the premier program in college baseball.

As far as A premier program? Eh, how many premier programs are we talking about here? How far back do we go? Is it 5 years, 10 years? Don't get me wrong, Vandy is a very solid program (in the last 10 years), and has made Regionals for 9 straight years. A couple of SEC titles also look nice.

However, all of that being said, if you want to look at all of the "premier programs" then you have to include an argument for:

AZ - 2 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 4 NC total)
ASU - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (22 CWS, 5 NC total)
UF - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (8 CWS, 0 NC total)
LSU - 3 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 6 NC total)
UNC - 6 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (10 CWS, 0 NC total)
Oregon State - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade 2 NC (5 CWS, 2 NC total)
South Carolina - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 2 NC (11 CWS, 2 NC total)
UT - 5 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (35 CWS, 6 NC total)
UCLA - 3 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (5 CWS, 1 NC total)

Next question:

If instead of Norwood hitting that HR in the 8th, a player from VA does instead, are we still having this conversation? I'm not trying to play 'what if' here, but they were that close to not winning, and then they would only have had two CWS appearances in the last 4 years, and how many of us would consider them the premier college baseball school? My point is that I don't think that essentially one win (even for the NC) establishes a premier baseball school.

If you look at the list above, there are schools with a bunch of CWS appearances and NC(s), a bunch of CWS with no NC, and schools with a couple/few CWS and NC(s) along with them. I picked a decade, because at least that gives a bit better trajectory of some sort of longevity. Hell, OU went to the CWS in 1992, 1994, and 1995, with a title in '94. I don't know if anyone would say that they were the premier baseball school at that time. I would still have gone with CS FUllerton, LSU, or even Miami, etc. And you look at what OU did before and after that nice three year stretch, and it's really pretty "eh" except for a nice stretch of CWS appearances in the mid-70s. So, I wouldn't be as quick to say that Vandy is the premier college baseball school, just yet.

Even considering the teams I listed above, there are teams who are a little hotter in the last 5 years (So Car, UCLA, etc., and some other teams who did much better 5-10 years ago, but have still remained at the top for some time before and since (UT, LSU, etc.). And then you have teams like ASU who hasn't won since '81, but they have had boatloads of CWS appearances every decade since the '60s. And, you even have teams like UNC who have very high recent success of CWS, but no title. Those are all still very solid programs with title contenders every year, even if they haven't won. Same thing can be said for UVA, FSU, etc.

Again, Vandy is doing well; a nice run of recent success. But I wouldn't put them ahead of So Car, UT, LSU, or Oregon State. And I think that programs like AZ, UCLA, and ASU who have either had similar success in the last decade (UCLA), similar success and a better history (AZ), or just a better history with a ton of CWS appearances (ASU), would be at least in the same category as Vandy. I think there is an argument that having 0 NCs in program history would put a program below Vandy, but I don't think that UNC, FSU, UF, and maybe even a TCU would be very far at all from Vandy.

2 CWS and 1 NC in the last 5 years (shit, ever) doesn't define the premier college baseball program in the nation, to me.

 

[Red_Alert]

I don't know about all of this. The premier? Hell no, and that's not even debatable. No one can convince me that because a team has two CWS appearances, and one title in their program's history (even they both came in the last 4 years), they are the premier program in college baseball.

As far as A premier program? Eh, how many premier programs are we talking about here? How far back do we go? Is it 5 years, 10 years? Don't get me wrong, Vandy is a very solid program (in the last 10 years), and has made Regionals for 9 straight years. A couple of SEC titles also look nice.

However, all of that being said, if you want to look at all of the "premier programs" then you have to include an argument for:

AZ - 2 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 4 NC total)
ASU - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (22 CWS, 5 NC total)
UF - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (8 CWS, 0 NC total)
LSU - 3 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 6 NC total)
UNC - 6 CWS appearances in the last decade, 0 NC (10 CWS, 0 NC total)
Oregon State - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade 2 NC (5 CWS, 2 NC total)
South Carolina - 4 CWS appearances in the last decade, 2 NC (11 CWS, 2 NC total)
UT - 5 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (35 CWS, 6 NC total)
UCLA - 3 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (5 CWS, 1 NC total)

Next question:

If instead of Norwood hitting that HR in the 8th, a player from VA does instead, are we still having this conversation? I'm not trying to play 'what if' here, but they were that close to not winning, and then they would only have had two CWS appearances in the last 4 years, and how many of us would consider them the premier college baseball school? My point is that I don't think that essentially one win (even for the NC) establishes a premier baseball school.

If you look at the list above, there are schools with a bunch of CWS appearances and NC(s), a bunch of CWS with no NC, and schools with a couple/few CWS and NC(s) along with them. I picked a decade, because at least that gives a bit better trajectory of some sort of longevity. Hell, OU went to the CWS in 1992, 1994, and 1995, with a title in '94. I don't know if anyone would say that they were the premier baseball school at that time. I would still have gone with CS FUllerton, LSU, or even Miami, etc. And you look at what OU did before and after that nice three year stretch, and it's really pretty "eh" except for a nice stretch of CWS appearances in the mid-70s. So, I wouldn't be as quick to say that Vandy is the premier college baseball school, just yet.

Even considering the teams I listed above, there are teams who are a little hotter in the last 5 years (So Car, UCLA, etc., and some other teams who did much better 5-10 years ago, but have still remained at the top for some time before and since (UT, LSU, etc.). And then you have teams like ASU who hasn't won since '81, but they have had boatloads of CWS appearances every decade since the '60s. And, you even have teams like UNC who have very high recent success of CWS, but no title. Those are all still very solid programs with title contenders every year, even if they haven't won. Same thing can be said for UVA, FSU, etc.

Again, Vandy is doing well; a nice run of recent success. But I wouldn't put them ahead of So Car, UT, LSU, or Oregon State. And I think that programs like AZ, UCLA, and ASU who have either had similar success in the last decade (UCLA), similar success and a better history (AZ), or just a better history with a ton of CWS appearances (ASU), would be at least in the same category as Vandy. I think there is an argument that having 0 NCs in program history would put a program below Vandy, but I don't think that UNC, FSU, UF, and maybe even a TCU would be very far at all from Vandy.

2 CWS and 1 NC in the last 5 years (shit, ever) doesn't define the premier college baseball program in the nation, to me.

LMAO

If you want to include "all time" then there are only to premier programs.

Southern Cal and Texas.

That you left them BOTH off your list is massive fail.

 

[CatsTopPac]

LMAO

If you want to include "all time" then there are only to premier programs.

Southern Cal and Texas.

That you left them BOTH off your list is massive fail.

First of all, UT = University of Texas. Go back and look again, and see what I wrote about UT. They're knee-deep in my analysis. Perhaps you should have looked at the programs I listed, at the one (UT) with 35 CWS appearances with 6 NCs total. That should have been a pretty clear indication that I wasn't referencing Tennessee, or Toledo.

Second of all, I say nothing at all about "all time". If you are handing out quotation marks on words, can you show me where I actually typed "all time"? I am talking about the last ten year. I noted that several times. The reason I exclude USC is precisely because I am not talking about "all time". Hell, if I was talking about "all time" I would have also included Miami, maybe even Ok St. However, since I am only going back ten years, I wouldn't really include any of them would I? USC hasn't even made a CWS since 2001, and Miami has made it twice (2004 and 2008), with no title. Ok St hasn't made it since 1999. The programs I listed (as I wrote in my post above) are those who have has as many CWS appearances with a NC, or have a pretty good run of CWS appearances in the last decade without having won it (which still makes the case that they are still a premier program, given their last ten years of success, compared to Vandy.

Take nothing away from USC, Miami, etc., and they are obviously still elite programs, but in the last decade, they have either been completely, or largely, absent from CWS/NC ranks. I specifically explained that I think going back a decade is still considered recent enough to establish a school as currently the premier program, but it also shows a better trajectory than simply going back 5 years, where it might specifically pull the very recent success out of context from the staying power of some of the programs with more longevity; hence why I went back a decade. Not sure what else I need to explain from my post above. Might just want to go back and reread it before handing out failures all willy nilly.

 

[Red_Alert]

First of all, UT = University of Texas. Go back and look again, and see what I wrote about UT. They're knee-deep in my analysis. Perhaps you should have looked at the programs I listed, at the one (UT) with 35 CWS appearances with 6 NCs total. That should have been a pretty clear indication that I wasn't referencing Tennessee, or Toledo.

Second of all, I say nothing at all about "all time". If you are handing out quotation marks on words, can you show me where I actually typed "all time"? I am talking about the last ten year. I noted that several times. The reason I exclude USC is precisely because I am not talking about "all time". Hell, if I was talking about "all time" I would have also included Miami, maybe even Ok St. However, since I am only going back ten years, I wouldn't really include any of them would I? USC hasn't even made a CWS since 2001, and Miami has made it twice (2004 and 2008), with no title. Ok St hasn't made it since 1999. The programs I listed (as I wrote in my post above) are those who have has as many CWS appearances with a NC, or have a pretty good run of CWS appearances in the last decade without having won it (which still makes the case that they are still a premier program, given their last ten years of success, compared to Vandy.

Take nothing away from USC, Miami, etc., and they are obviously still elite programs, but in the last decade, they have either been completely, or largely, absent from CWS/NC ranks. I specifically explained that I think going back a decade is still considered recent enough to establish a school as currently the premier program, but it also shows a better trajectory than simply going back 5 years, where it might specifically pull the very recent success out of context from the staying power of some of the programs with more longevity; hence why I went back a decade. Not sure what else I need to explain from my post above. Might just want to go back and reread it before handing out failures all willy nilly.

"AZ - 2 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 4 NC total)"

Arizona has 16 CWS appearances and 4 NC's in the last 10 years?

Why put those stats up if you had no intention of making them relevant?

I don't need to see the words "all time" to know you're referring to all-time.

If you want your topic to be about the last 10 years, you should probably limit your information to the last 10 years.

 

[CatsTopPac]

"AZ - 2 CWS appearances in the last decade, 1 NC (16 CWS, 4 NC total)"

Arizona has 16 CWS appearances and 4 NC's in the last 10 years?

Why put those stats up if you had no intention of making them relevant?

I don't need to see the words "all time" to know you're referring to all-time.

If you want your topic to be about the last 10 years, you should probably limit your information to the last 10 years.

Well good, at least we've moved passed UT meaning Texas. And out of all of that, you choose to focus on the comparative analysis instead of the main argument. I'll break it down for you one more time. The addition of including their totals is simply to add context to the main (and overwhelmingly present) timeline of a decade. If you look a little in front of the totals, they are clearly in relation to what has also happened in the last decade. Bringing in the history of the teams who have specifically done well in the last decade adds the macro to the meso, to strengthen the argument of the meso. It does not replace the original argument, only supports it.

I mention the 10-year span of Vandy in the 2nd paragraph. Then I list other programs with at least comparable statistics over the last decade to Vandy. That establishes that the main argument is comparing Vandy's last decade with those on the list immediately after.

Some of those programs didn't do well beyond the 10 years (UCLA, S Car, and Oregon State), but that they still made quite a dent (more than Vandy) in the last decade.

I also include other programs who might have had a similar decade as Vandy in the last decade, but also have a history to show the longevity of their decade; to place in a larger context. This simply shows that they are more apt to continue their CWS and higher level of competition because this past decade was just as competitive for them as other decades (AZ, UT, LSU).

Then I move on to the teams that maybe have not had the NC that Vandy has in the last decade, but they were still at least competitive with a better history (ASU, FSU). I spent the last 3 paragraphs explaining the history only as it bolsters the work they've done in the last decade, compared to Vandy. The most important part of the argument is the decade comparison to Vandy, the history is only support. I explain it in black and white in the middle of the last paragraph:


And I think that programs like AZ, UCLA, and ASU who have either had similar success in the last decade (UCLA), similar success and a better history (AZ), or just a better history with a ton of CWS appearances (ASU), would be at least in the same category as Vandy.

But all of those schools are still programs who have done at least as well as Vandy in the last decade.

The whole establishment of the question of this thread is to discuss premier college baseball school. That has to be more recent than past. So we are talking about the last 10 years. If you have programs like USC and Miami, then they really can't draw on the last 10 years, because they were almost exclusively absent (certainly not comparable to Vandy in the last decade). The examples of the past that I use stand on an addition to the last decade, it bolsters my argument by saying "This decade's success isn't even out of the ordinary, they are always here, including this decade." That is a better argument than establishing the premier school as one that has only been to 2 CWS and has 1 NC not only in the last 4 years, but ever. With the teams who have also done at least as well as Vandy over the last decade, but have had similar decades prior to this one, we can better predict that their success will continue, adding to the argument that the school also had at least a comparable decade as Vandy, but with the history, it further strengthens the argument as the more premier program: not just having a good decade, but a good decade and a strong history. Or, the history of one of those schools is not as strong as some of the past decades by other programs, but have had a better decade than Vandy. Or, some schools didn't have the NC, but they still had the appearances in Omaha, their level of competition is high decade in and out, as shown by their history. All of those examples show that those other 9 teams had at least the resume that Vandy does, to establish themselves as a more premier program than Vandy.

In conclusion, I am making their history relevant, but only as it relates to the main argument of comparing the last decade. And I didn't write all-time, because I didn't mean all-time. I meant that it's better to place the teams who have done will in the past decade into another point of analysis (historical trajectory), to illustrate an additional emphasis on the last decade, and support an argument why the other teams listed who have had comparable decades is a more premier baseball school.

Any other questions, or do you have something specific about the teams I listed, in relation to Vandy?

 

[Red_Alert]

TL: DR

 

[CatsTopPac]

TL: DR

So you're a picture book kind of guy, huh? Makes sense as to why you struggled to understand a simple argument. Sounds about right. I guess that none of the other schools that have also won (once or multiple times) and/or made multiple CWS in the past decade can make arguments for being the premier baseball school. Nice job on the short memory. Hell, I guess that UF is the premier softball school since they won it last year (albeit their first NC, as well). Glad you cleared that up for me. Fuck what anyone else has done in the recent past to challenge the narrative. Maybe every year's current champion is the premier school in that sport. Could have really eliminated a lot of sound arguments if that was just defined at the beginning. Glad we had this talk.

 

[Red_Alert]

So you're a picture book kind of guy, huh? Makes sense as to why you struggled to understand a simple argument. Sounds about right. I guess that none of the other schools that have also won (once or multiple times) and/or made multiple CWS in the past decade can make arguments for being the premier baseball school. Nice job on the short memory. Hell, I guess that UF is the premier softball school since they won it last year (albeit their first NC, as well). Glad you cleared that up for me. Fuck what anyone else has done in the recent past to challenge the narrative. Maybe every year's current champion is the premier school in that sport. Could have really eliminated a lot of sound arguments if that was just defined at the beginning. Glad we had this talk.

They are all good programs in their own right. However, Vanderbilt is the current champion and that gives them the most to sell to a potential recruit. It's not like they were a 2014 Cinderella, out of nowhere, flash in the pan.

When somebody uses a word I generally take it in the literal sense. What does it mean?

Premier: adjective

First in rank; chief; leading.

Vanderbilt is First in rank and therefore the premier program until someone takes that away from them. Cry me a river if you don't like that.

I have anything but a short memory. I just don't opt to choose an arbitrary time-frame to determine what a premier program is. Anything other than All-Time is a moot argument.

The All-Time premier programs in college baseball are Texas and Southern California.

 

[CatsTopPac]

They are all good programs in their own right. However, Vanderbilt is the current champion and that gives them the most to sell to a potential recruit. It's not like they were a 2014 Cinderella, out of nowhere, flash in the pan.

When somebody uses a word I generally take it in the literal sense. What does it mean?

Premier: adjective

First in rank; chief; leading.

Vanderbilt is First in rank and therefore the premier program until someone takes that away from them. Cry me a river if you don't like that.

I have anything but a short memory. I just don't opt to choose an arbitrary time-frame to determine what a premier program is. Anything other than All-Time is a moot argument.

The All-Time premier programs in college baseball are Texas and Southern California.

You are confusing Team with Program. You keep using program and sometimes you refer to it in the correct usage (your last sentence), but when you talk about Vandy, you mean team, not program. They are the best team right now, yes. No argument there. But just like in my last post, that doesn't mean that UF has the premier program in college softball, nor does it mean that Vandy is the premier baseball school. They just won their first NC and have only been to one other CWS.

I am not saying at all that they are a cinderella. They are a good program and this has been their best team. But again, that is not the best program. Their are more premier baseball schools out there. I listed some. Those are programs, they have this success all of the time. They've had it, and or they currently have it as much or more (from a program perspective, not team) as Vandy.

Hats off to Vandy, take nothing away from them. They are at the top of the mountain, but it doesn't mean that they are the premier program. If AZ wins the NC in basketball this year, even with the success of the last 25 years, I still wouldn't say that AZ is the premier basketball school in the country. It simply wouldn't be true. UK, KU, Duke, and Ville would all still be more premier. I could make an argument against UCLA, because there has been enough times (almost 3 decades) where AZ has been arguably better (especially if we win the NC this season), but that would only mean that AZ has the best team, not the best program.

So to that point with UCLA, I would bring in USC baseball. UCLA has hands down the most NC, the most storied basketball program of all time. But they haven't done much since Wooden left. They have a handful of FFs and one NC. That is not consistent with the other schools I named ahead of AZ who not only have the history, but they are also currently very good. They have won multiple NCs (and recently) as well as having the past to go with it. But is UCLA the most premier program in CBB? No. They don't get the recruits, they don't have the head coach, and they don't have the hardware except for once in the last 4 decades. That is what USC is in baseball (relative to this argument).

USC is the best program of all time, but they are not currently the most premier. There is a difference. Premier means that they are not only fielding some of the best teams recently. It means that you are either only doing it recently, but you are doing it at such a high rate compared to everyone else, that you have demonstrated that you are a force to be reckoned with for a good chunk of the recent past, even if you haven't won (UNC, ASU, FSU). Or, it means that you have only recently solidified yourself at the top, but you have done it at a higher rate with NC quality (UCLA, So Car, Oregon State), or you have the high quality in the recent past, and you have the history to solidify that status (AZ, UT, LSU).

But it's the combonation of recent past and the history, or just an overwhelming recent past that establishes someone as premier. And Although USC's past is the richest, they are riding on that alone. It doesn't erase the past, but it begs for more to satisfy expectations. And USC has not delivered since 1999. At all.

I say recent past and you isolate it to Vandy for your argument. I mention history and you swing the other way toward USC. But it's the combination of both, overwhelming recent success (at least) that defines the premier program. It's not one or the other. Vandy is the best team, USC is the best program, but neither makes them the premier program. Those schools I listed either did more or the same as Vandy recently, with the history to back it up as having longevity, or the have done enough recently to remove doubt that they just had a decade or so of good baseball, but only limited success. Vandy doesn't have any history before 2011. They were a good squad, but hadn't even ever made the CWS. And now after 3 years with 1 NC, they are the premier baseball school???? Absolutely not. Those schools I listed have had a better last decade, have a comparable comparable last decade but with history, or have not won but have been solidified in CWS/NC competition to the extent that they have been ingrained at the top longer than Vandy (either for most of the decade or longer).

Vandy went to the CWS in '11 and won last year. All of those teams I listed are at least as enticing as Vandy.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I mean, is there one of the three categories that you disagree with? Do you really think that Vandy is a more premier baseball school than UT, LSU, So Car, UCLA, FSU, etc. Is it that you think I'm a AZ homer, so you don't agree with AZ? What about Oregon State, ASU, UNC? Pick some that you think Vandy is more premier than. If you think that Vandy really is more premier than everyone, then I am going to need a better argument than something like "Premier means first in rank and Vandy just won, so that must mean that they are the most premier."

 

[Red_Alert]

Just using your 10 year argument, Vandy is on par with any program in the country. They are certainly on par with every program you've listed.
When there are a bunch of good programs, you must find something that separates one from the rest to determine a premier.

That one thing is a national championship trophy.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Just using your 10 year argument, Vandy is on par with any program in the country. They are certainly on par with every program you've listed.
When there are a bunch of good programs, you must find something that separates one from the rest to determine a premier.

That one thing is a national championship trophy.

Okay, so breaking it down:

Vandy has 2 CWS and 1 NC in the last ten years.

Oregon State has 4 CWS and 2 NC in the last decade
So Car has 4 CWS and 2 NC in the last decade.

Is Vandy on par with that?

What about the fact that UT has 5 CWS and 1 NC in the last decade?
LSU has 3 CWS and 1 NC in the last decade.
UCLA has 3 CWS and 1 NC in the last decade.

Vandy looks just a little short of them.

Now we get to a program like AZ.

AZ won it in 2012, and has the same 2 CWS and 1 NC. So, are you saying that Vandy is more premier than AZ just because they won it this past year, when AZ won it in 2012? Because I have to believe that given the brand new facilities (best in the Pac), it's own stadium off campus that serves beer (good attendance draw), and the fact that they have been averaging a NC and a handful of CWS per decade since the 70s or at least 80s, that they are at least as premier as Vandy, who just won their first NC this year, and only made their first CWS in 2011.

Or what about ASU? they don't have a recent NC, but they have still made 4 CWS in the last decade (and two more years they had sanctions during). ASU is one of the best programs in the country, hands down. And even though they don't have a recent NC, they have 5 total, a bunch of MLB players, and they are still playing at CWS quality almost every year. Even though ASU doesn't have the NC in the past decade, and because they are still always knee deep in the CWS, I have to believe that ASU is more premier than Vandy.

How about FSU? Same story with them. They are always in the CWS. No title, but they have still established themselves as a program that makes CWS and is in the title hunt year after year for decades. I have to believe that if a team like FSU (much like ASU) has made 12 CWS in the last 25 years (including 3 in the last decade), then they are more premier than a team who has only made their first CWS in 2011, and their only NC, this year.

Once we get down to the UF and UNC, I can admit that they are far more comparable to Vandy, than any of the others. UF has 8 CWS, but half of them came in the last decade. They are not a top tier program (in terms of prestige, kind of like Vandy), so they don't have the history to go along with a solid decade, and they haven't won a NC. Same with UNC. Each school has a very nice collection of CWS appearances in the last decade, so they have established themselves as a solid program over decades.

But my point is that Vandy hasn't. Vandy's program is pretty weak, when you take both what they have done in the past decade, and look at their overall program history. They have a CWS in 2011, and a NC this year. That's it. When it comes to the other programs I named, that is weak in the past 10 years, let alone in the past 10 years and their history.

When a recruit looks at schools, they take recent success into consideration like they take historical prestige into consideration. They are not separate. Don't get me wrong. I am not shitting on Vandy. I just don't think that they are the most premier baseball school in the US. They are a very solid school, hell, they just won the NC. But I would say that:

Top tier at this moment is

UT, LSU, So Car, Oregon State

The second tier is ASU, AZ, and UCLA.

I would put Vandy in the next tier with close proximity to the second tier, and I would put them in with FSU, UNC, UF.

What are your tiers? DO you really think that Vandy is more premier than UT, LSU, So Car, and Oregon State? Out of those 10-11 schools, how would you rank them?

 

[Sid Mead]

We have the winningest all-time baseball coach, possibly the winningest all-time Div 1 coach with 1900+ wins.

You may have the Div 1 winningest coach, but quite a few of those wins ( 875 over 19 seasons ) came while he was the head coach at CSF. Any talk of a premier baseball school without making mention of the Titans is ludicrous. In only 37 seasons of play CSF has a .703 winning percentage and has amassed numerous CWS appearances to go along with 4 NC's. Their record speaks for itself.

 

[CatsTopPac]

You may have the Div 1 winningest coach, but quite a few of those wins ( 875 over 19 seasons ) came while he was the head coach at CSF. Any talk of a premier baseball school without making mention of the Titans is ludicrous. In only 37 seasons of play CSF has a .703 winning percentage and has amassed numerous CWS appearances to go along with 4 NC's. Their record speaks for itself.

Great point, I'd definitely add CSF to the list!

 

[charlie42s]

You may have the Div 1 winningest coach, but quite a few of those wins ( 875 over 19 seasons ) came while he was the head coach at CSF. Any talk of a premier baseball school without making mention of the Titans is ludicrous. In only 37 seasons of play CSF has a .703 winning percentage and has amassed numerous CWS appearances to go along with 4 NC's. Their record speaks for itself.

We also had the winningest(at the time when he 'retired') baseball coach in Cliff Gustafson. He was replaced by Augie.

 

[Sid Mead]

We also had the winningest(at the time when he 'retired') baseball coach in Cliff Gustafson. He was replaced by Augie.

I can't blame Augie for leaving CSF in 1996 for greener pastures. There's just no way that a Cal state school can compete " salary wise " when it comes to paying their head coaches. He was a winner there and guided the Titans to 3 NC's.

As far as Vandy being a top tier program, imo the jury is still out in deliberations. While it's true that the Commodores have had a decent 10 year run,that alone will not guarantee success going forward. A program needs consistency year after year which means that teams must be making NCAA appearances and going deep into the playoffs to be considered a premier program. Let's see what the next 10 years bring for Vandy & how consistent the program remains.

 

[jeffro151]

How anyone leaves UVa off the list of current top tier programs is beyond me. Over the past 5 seasons, UVa has won the most games total.
UVa-249 wins, 4 seasons of 50 or more wins
South Carolina- 245 wins, 2 seasons of 50 or more wins
Vandy- 240 wins, 3 seasons of 50 or more wins
FSU- 234 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
UNC- 229 wins, 2 seasons of 50 or more wins
LSU- 227 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
Florida- 216 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
Oregon St- 210 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
UCLA- 208 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
Texas- 202 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
Arizona St- 201 wins, 1 season of 50 or more wins
Arizona- 177 wins, 0 seasons of 50 or more wins

 

[CatsTopPac]

I mentioned UVA in post #22. I guess my overall point was that there are a dozen or so premier schools in baseball. Depending on the metrics, you could put any school(s) above others. But my argument is that just because Vandy has just won the CWS doesn't seem to me to be a good enough qualifier to label them as being the premier college baseball school. UVA is having a nice run, no reason that it should cease. Hell, I pointed out that if UVA would have hit that HR in the 8th instead of Vandy, that we wouldn't even be taking about Vandy as the best. They would only have had two CWS appearances in the last 5 years, but that's really it for them. To your point, just winning that game to claim the NC doesn't put them at the top for me.

 

[RoyHobbs]

How anyone leaves UVa off the list of current top tier programs is beyond me. Over the past 5 seasons, UVa has won the most games total.

Its not that hard to do really if you consider what the whole reason for playing a season is. Take the pros in MLB, every team's goal should be to not only make the WS, but to be crowned world champion. As the years go by, are people going to remember which team won the most games in the regular season and stumbled in the playoffs ? More realistically, the normal fan is going to remember last years champion.

Obviously, you as a fan of U of V are going to bring up your regular season record that you are naturally very proud of.
But lets call a spade a spade. UVa has never won a CWS title and was finally a runner up for the very first time this year. You've got three appearances in the CWS in the past 5 years which is a good thing. But dynasty's and premier programs have something very similar in common. Either they bring home the trophy or they are in contention to bring home the trophy season after season. That's the measurement that everyone can agree upon. To the winner go all of the accolades. Its an elite group and to gain entry you must have at least 1 NC.

Don't get me wrong, I am not disparaging the UVa baseball program. Being among a top tier program in CB is desirable and I applaud any team headed in the right direction. But don't kid yourself. Just ask Dan Marino how it feels to have never won a Super Bowl despite being in the HOF.