Ichiro... 3000

[Shanemansj13]

One of the greatest hitters of all-time IMO. Just think if he would have 4-6 years of possibly his young prime in the majors as well.

Since the age of 20...7 of 9 years in Japan he had over 1200 hits about 175 hits per season and that is with an average AB per season of only 494.

 

[navamind]

I have no fucking clue what that stat represents. But I'm sure theres some make believe invloved.

And even if you want to ignore park/league adjusted stats, Ichiro's stats still don't come close to ranking among the best. Obviously he's one of the best contact hitters of all-time, but you're talking about a guy with a .357 OBP (good, but not great; and he was a leadoff hitter) and a guy that had minimal power (career .405 SLG% despite hitting well over .300).

His all-around game still makes him an easy HOFer in my eyes, but I just don't see how he ranks among the greatest hitters in the game. The only argument for him is his BA, which only tells part of the story. It doesn't tell you how often they actually reached base and it counts singles/doubles/triples/home runs as being equal.

 

[molsaniceman]

And even if you want to ignore park/league adjusted stats, Ichiro's stats still don't come close to ranking among the best. Obviously he's one of the best contact hitters of all-time, but you're talking about a guy with a .357 OBP (good, but not great; and he was a leadoff hitter) and a guy that had minimal power (career .405 SLG% despite hitting well over .300).

His all-around game still makes him an easy HOFer in my eyes, but I just don't see how he ranks among the greatest hitters in the game. The only argument for him is his BA, which only tells part of the story. It doesn't tell you how often they actually reached base and it counts singles/doubles/triples/home runs as being equal.

what u dont like those 2,444 singles

 

[navamind]

what u dont like those 2,444 singles

I don't think BA is a worthless stat by any means. You do need to be able to make contact in the majors to some degree. It's hard to be a productive offensive player when you're hovering around .200. It requires a lot of home runs and a lot of walks/HBPs. McGwire hit 29 home runs in 97 games in his final season (while hitting only 4 doubles!). He drew 56 walks in 364 PA (15.4%). He finished with a 104 wRC+ that year. He batted .187.

 

[Omar 382]

Making alterations to statistics is make believe in my book.

Parks are different. Eras are different. Weather changes. Day games and night games have an impact. It's part of the game and affects players numbers. Just the way it is.

Saying Ichiro could've hit X amount of homers, if he wanted to, is make believe. So is a stat that isn't based in actual on field (wherever that field happens to be)production.

Coincidentally, have you ever read a statistics book? Are you familiar with the field?

 

[Omar 382]

I don't think BA is a worthless stat by any means. You do need to be able to make contact in the majors to some degree. It's hard to be a productive offensive player when you're hovering around .200. It requires a lot of home runs and a lot of walks/HBPs. McGwire hit 29 home runs in 97 games in his final season (while hitting only 4 doubles!). He drew 56 walks in 364 PA (15.4%). He finished with a 104 wRC+ that year. He batted .187.

The only thing BA is worthwile for is ISO. BA is ISO's bitch

 

[wazzu31]

I don't buy the 'he could hit all the home runs he wants to' thing. That power hitter claim has been around from the beginning, people like to say it, but where does it come from? What has he ever done to show he could flip a switch and be an effective power hitter if he wants?

Problem is the dude had power. The myth about it came from his BP when he would make Bonds look like nothing. The other issue with the myth is Ichiro didn't hit a ton of homeruns but when he would it was at the perfect time for him personally not when the team needed him. Him showing great power but never being a team player all added to that myth.

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

He does seem to do everything well (except for power). Congratulations Ichiro!!!!

He was also not par for on base for his high average for many years. He is well known as a good fielder with great arm in his prime and of course one of the best contact hitters and good baserunner.. He certainly deserves a first ballad hall nod, but to say he is this generation's greatest hitter is laughable. OPS is indeed slightly overrated because it does favor power hitters immensely(Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard) but he still had some weaknesses in his game that keeps him from being in the discussion of greatest hitter. You have to do it all ala Pujols in his prime to be considered.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Was about to type pretty much this. Something that was cool to say but wasn't supported by actual evidence (sorry batting practice doesn't count). If he had a magic power switch, it would have been cool to turn it to 25 bombs a year and still hit for a pretty high average...

Really the only somewhat negative thing that comes to my mind is that it seems like Ichiro would have been a better OBP guy. Maybe Japan is the like the Dominican Republic: you don't walk your way off the island!

Great player with many tools and a HOFer for sure.

Sadaharu Oh was a Bonds/Ruth/Williams type of hitter with lots of BB to go with a high average and power...I think Ichiro was just doing the best he could with his tools, and that was damned good.
With his exceptional defense and baserunning ability, he was a very fine player for a long time...but, he generally did not score a ton of runs for a guy with his BA and speed. Lack of power and patience are the main reasons, but the Mariners were also generally weak and he had a tough home park for the bulk of his career.

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

Sadaharu Oh was a Bonds/Ruth/Williams type of hitter with lots of BB to go with a high average and power...I think Ichiro was just doing the best he could with his tools, and that was damned good.
With his exceptional defense and baserunning ability, he was a very fine player for a long time...but, he generally did not score a ton of runs for a guy with his BA and speed. Lack of power and patience are the main reasons, but the Mariners were also generally weak and he had a tough home park for the bulk of his career.

To be fair he had some very piss poor lineups in Seattle. And the park sucked for hitters. Even Beltre had some of his worst offensive seasons there.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Problem is the dude had power. The myth about it came from his BP when he would make Bonds look like nothing. The other issue with the myth is Ichiro didn't hit a ton of homeruns but when he would it was at the perfect time for him personally not when the team needed him. Him showing great power but never being a team player all added to that myth.

Ichiro could hit HRs in BP, but they weren't real bombs. Why didn't he take part in a HR derby if that was the case?
Mark Reynolds could effortlessly launch shot after shot pushing 500 feet in BP, but then struck out in 1/3 of his game at bats. Mike Ivie was a great BP hitter, what did that do for him? No way Ichiro hits for real power in games while maintaining any kind of a BA, he'd have to be sitting dead red and trying to jack every pitch to have even a modest number of HRs.

 

[navamind]

It would only be fitting if Ichiro and Ortiz were inducted into the HOF at the same time. They're polar opposites of each other.

 

[wazzu31]

Ichiro hit bombs in BP all the time in BP. The hit it here cafe is considered a shot in Safeco Field and that was just a routine hit for him in BP. I can't say why he wouldn't participate in the HR derby.

But I'm saying that is where the myth came from, was because of his BP performances and the timely home runs he actually did hit. I doubt he could whenever he wanted but after 2002 he seemed to only play for himself, not the team so I'm sure that's where media got some of that myth too since he was such a mystery cause he didn't talk to the media very often they didn't have anything to write.

 

[Great Dayne]

Ichiro could hit HRs in BP, but they weren't real bombs. Why didn't he take part in a HR derby if that was the case?
Mark Reynolds could effortlessly launch shot after shot pushing 500 feet in BP, but then struck out in 1/3 of his game at bats. Mike Ivie was a great BP hitter, what did that do for him? No way Ichiro hits for real power in games while maintaining any kind of a BA, he'd have to be sitting dead red and trying to jack every pitch to have even a modest number of HRs.

Barry Bonds and many others have conceded that he would've won the HR derby every single year. Not sure why he never decided to participate. IMO in was a good idea that he never did it because he would've faced constant pressure to get more jacks in the reg season but he didn't want to risk lowering his avg for homers.

 

[Great Dayne]

Barry Bonds recently added fuel to the urban legend of Ichiro's god like power.

Barry Bonds' Home Run Derby pick fuels popular baseball urban legend

 

[Omar 382]

Barry Bonds and many others have conceded that he would've won the HR derby every single year. Not sure why he never decided to participate. IMO in was a good idea that he never did it because he would've faced constant pressure to get more jacks in the reg season but he didn't want to risk lowering his avg for homers.

LOL. You can't make this shit up!

 

[navamind]

Barry Bonds and many others have conceded that he would've won the HR derby every single year. Not sure why he never decided to participate. IMO in was a good idea that he never did it because he would've faced constant pressure to get more jacks in the reg season but he didn't want to risk lowering his avg for homers.

Too bad this is completely anecdotal.

And, ya know, it's batting practice.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Too bad this is completely anecdotal.

And, ya know, it's batting practice.

Yes but according to baseball myths, batting practice won the 1927 World Series.

 

[tducey]

Good for him, certainly one of the best players of this century.

 

[tabascojet]

nice job ichiro.....