I`ve brought this up before

[randymon]

and so far nobody seems to like it but I think it`s worth some feedback. I think Denver should try a two back set. Here`s my reasoning and possibilities. The oppossing D`s you will be totally unprepared. Denver has not done this in a millinium) You have so many options esp on down and short ydge. For example. You can put CJ in front ( I formation) and Thompson at tail. You can give to CJ or have Juwann or hilman follow or use mis-direct. You use Tamme at Te instead of Julius because he`s not the blocker Tamme is. You can fake to both, have Tamme to a ck and release or have Sanders hook a run. You could even throw in Potroast as Fb ( he pretty athletic) and punch a hole for either back. Look I know this is not done hardly at all in NFL, but it`s the confusion part that can make this work at least a few gms because like I stated......Denver doesn`t do this. I think it worth a try and know I`ll get neg feedback but I think it would work great. I have more to elaborate on but just got company

 

[CrashDavisSports]

and so far nobody seems to like it but I think it`s worth some feedback. I think Denver should try a two back set. Here`s my reasoning and possibilities. The oppossing D`s you will be totally unprepared. Denver has not done this in a millinium) You have so many options esp on down and short ydge. For example. You can put CJ in front ( I formation) and Thompson at tail. You can give to CJ or have Juwann or hilman follow or use mis-direct. You use Tamme at Te instead of Julius because he`s not the blocker Tamme is. You can fake to both, have Tamme to a ck and release or have Sanders hook a run. You could even throw in Potroast as Fb ( he pretty athletic) and punch a hole for either back. Look I know this is not done hardly at all in NFL, but it`s the confusion part that can make this work at least a few gms because like I stated......Denver doesn`t do this. I think it worth a try and know I`ll get neg feedback but I think it would work great. I have more to elaborate on but just got company

Denver has one of the top offenses in the NFL, they don't need gimmick plays with the best QB to ever play the game at the helm. What they need is their defense to stay consistent and solid on the back end when opposing teams are passing every down to try and come back.

 

[TDs3nOut]

I'm not really enough of a "football guy" to question Xs and Os. I do know, however, that I loved Howard Griffith! If Don Juwan or CJ can play a similar role, then I am absolutely all on board.

As someone posted in another thread, however, I too am not a fan of Julius lined up in the backfield.

 

[randymon]

Denver has one of the top offenses in the NFL, they don't need gimmick plays with the best QB to ever play the game at the helm. What they need is their defense to stay consistent and solid on the back end when opposing teams are passing every down to try and come back.

I have no idea where you came up with gimmick plays. It's called smash- mouth run with option to throw.

 

[Malibu]

I have no idea where you came up with gimmick plays. It's called smash- mouth run with option to throw.

Theve done that by the goal line once already this year. Thompson was the FB and scored a TD. I forget what game it was but it happened. This though is the least of the Broncos worries. Just saying.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I have no idea where you came up with gimmick plays. It's called smash- mouth run with option to throw.

I guess I did not follow all your monologue then, sorry about that. However, I am not 100% sure Denver is built to be a smash mouth offense. They are a spread, single back, let Manning read the defense kind of offense, and that is the way Manning prefers it. This is the same type of offense Manning has been running since he came into the league.

I think anything else at this point in Manning's career would just be limiting his ability and the sole reason that he is who he is. Short yardage and some goal line, sure bring in the short yardage package. Problem is, I don't think Denver has a good short yardage personnel package.

Manning has a stinker once in a while, it just happens. I would focus more on the defense as Manning will not let things get out of control with the offense.

 

[cdumler7]

Few things with this...First as another pointed out they have thrown this in a bit this year with Thompson in at FB as he did play that some at Duke. So it is in the playbook and has been used successfully for picking up first downs or scoring near the goal line. It just is not quite in the playbook as much as you would like is my guess.


Second having the 2-back set brings more people into the box to stop the run. It means that one more person has to block correctly to make the run play work. So the fact that we are struggling to run block when the numbers are in our favor doesn't bode well for that being successful in my opinion with this offense. WE just don't have an OL like that of the Cowboys that you can expect them to push people back 3-yards and then have a full back blow up one of the linebackers.


Finally this limits Peyton's ability to read the defense. The easiest way to read a defense is spread them out and see how they line up. Bringing them in closer makes it that much harder to figure out and communicate where blitzes are coming from, what kind of coverage they are going to run, and what routes will work against certain defenses. So we are taking away one of our greatest strengths on offense in Peyton's ability before the snap if we bring that extra back into the backfield.


Honestly the coaches and players have all said that our run game lives and dies unfortunately with Virgil Green of all people. He has been injured parts of this season and when he has been out our run game has done very little. He is the one guy beyond our OL players that is an excellent blocker so to me getting him healthy is huge for our offense. He is like a FB really for this team just lining up mostly in the TE position.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Few things with this...First as another pointed out they have thrown this in a bit this year with Thompson in at FB as he did play that some at Duke. So it is in the playbook and has been used successfully for picking up first downs or scoring near the goal line. It just is not quite in the playbook as much as you would like is my guess.


Second having the 2-back set brings more people into the box to stop the run. It means that one more person has to block correctly to make the run play work. So the fact that we are struggling to run block when the numbers are in our favor doesn't bode well for that being successful in my opinion with this offense. WE just don't have an OL like that of the Cowboys that you can expect them to push people back 3-yards and then have a full back blow up one of the linebackers.


Finally this limits Peyton's ability to read the defense. The easiest way to read a defense is spread them out and see how they line up. Bringing them in closer makes it that much harder to figure out and communicate where blitzes are coming from, what kind of coverage they are going to run, and what routes will work against certain defenses. So we are taking away one of our greatest strengths on offense in Peyton's ability before the snap if we bring that extra back into the backfield.


Honestly the coaches and players have all said that our run game lives and dies unfortunately with Virgil Green of all people. He has been injured parts of this season and when he has been out our run game has done very little. He is the one guy beyond our OL players that is an excellent blocker so to me getting him healthy is huge for our offense. He is like a FB really for this team just lining up mostly in the TE position.

I agree with all that.

 

[randymon]

Yeah guys agree with the Broncos offensive " character" if you will and your right. My point was on limited basis like goal- line and short ydge situations. When everyone know their going to run, I still think they would have better conversion percentage with two back set than just handing it off to Hilman. Plus, when you show that formation, yeah their going to think run and that does open up other opportunities. I just think having that "look" ( in those situations) can have more of a chance at succsess compared to Hilman as lone back. Now if they would commit to CJ or Thompson when those situations arise, I think they still would fair better than asking that O-line and Hilman to to "power in".

 

[randymon]

Another thing that I think goes unaknowledged in the running game is how valuable Moreno really was. In that I mean how he gave a 100% when he ran the ball and I think he not only earned the respect from the O-line, but it motivated them when they saw how much effort he put forth. I think the O-line now gets slacksadasiel (?) at times when they know they can make a great block and the rb misses the whole anyway and their effort goes for nought. They lose that confidence in that rb. I think they`ve been totally frustrated with Ball and still lack total confidence in Hilman to be that "Moreno" guy that they know he`s going to follow that hole regardless and they take much more pride in paving that way. He inspired them more than we prob know. Hey, their people too and you have to have a guy behind you that you know is going to give everything he has AND be where he suppossed to be. Moreno hasn`t been replaced yet. That O-line will show what their really capable of when they get someone they trust and believe in.I just hope its sooner than later.

 

[BigKen]

A point of view from outside. I coached kids for 40 years. I Pop Warner, AYF and Independent, you must have at least two running backs. 12 year olds generally are pretty much equal in size, weight and speed. Most teams actually use a three back set. Defenses are also regulated with a max of 7 defensive linemen. Most teams go with 7 DL, 3 LB and safety. Let's move to the pros......


The original pro-set offense was a fullback and a halfback. The FB was primary a blocking back until onset of the "new" passing rules. Rarely does any team want to remove a potential downfield threat and replace him with a back who will not be running the ball or catching the ball. As was previously stated goal line offense is most likely best to have a big back in to pound it into the end zone or open a hole into the end zone.


Probably the team that uses a fullback best is the Patriots. Against the Broncos they Devlin twice. Once out of the backfield as a receiver and he did make the catch for 14 yards. The other was at the goal line as a fake blocker when Brady made the quick pass to Gronkowski for the TD. Devlin is 256 lbs but he can run.


You can't take away targets from Manning. Limiting his passing options is a fool's game. Reduce his targets and he may be hit more often.....not a good idea for a quarterback.

 

[randymon]

A point of view from outside. I coached kids for 40 years. I Pop Warner, AYF and Independent, you must have at least two running backs. 12 year olds generally are pretty much equal in size, weight and speed. Most teams actually use a three back set. Defenses are also regulated with a max of 7 defensive linemen. Most teams go with 7 DL, 3 LB and safety. Let's move to the pros......


The original pro-set offense was a fullback and a halfback. The FB was primary a blocking back until onset of the "new" passing rules. Rarely does any team want to remove a potential downfield threat and replace him with a back who will not be running the ball or catching the ball. As was previously stated goal line offense is most likely best to have a big back in to pound it into the end zone or open a hole into the end zone.


Probably the team that uses a fullback best is the Patriots. Against the Broncos they Devlin twice. Once out of the backfield as a receiver and he did make the catch for 14 yards. The other was at the goal line as a fake blocker when Brady made the quick pass to Gronkowski for the TD. Devlin is 256 lbs but he can run.


You can't take away targets from Manning. Limiting his passing options is a fool's game. Reduce his targets and he may be hit more often.....not a good idea for a quarterback.

Confused. Your contradicting yourself. Works for Brady but not Manning?

 

[cdumler7]

Also not sure I would say New England is among the best FB teams in the league. Haven't seen them use it on a consistent basis like the Chiefs and 49ers who I would say are tops in the league when it comes to full back working well.


Randymon I do think you are right in it would be a good idea to use it at least a little in games. It gives the defense one more thing they have to gameplan for during the week. Definitely more of a goal line type set up as there are many things you can do out of that kind of formation. Heck we could see another Mitch Unrein touchdown.

 

[BigKen]

This is why I generally back away from conversations and threads. I never, ever said anything about Brady doing anything and Manning not. Some participants in these threads take everything stated by a non fan of their team as an insult or a demeaning to their team. My message was neither. CD, you stated you haven't seen enough of NE to make an evaluation and I understand because you don't watch them every week.


Earlier in the season, Devlin was much more involved in the offense....before Brady started feeling more comfortable with LaFell and Gronk. AND before Gronk felt as comfortable being on the field as he does now. He was interviewed after the Bronco game and he said the he knew he had to get past another meeting with TJ Ward before he would mentally be back 100%. He took a couple of shots from TJ and he cleared his last hurdle. Back to the point..........Devlin is a bit faster than the average FB, but he doesn't block as well as most. He needs to be able to take on a defensive player at the line, slide off and be able to turn around immediately for a pass. They've used him several times as the lead blocker at the goal line and he's only 50-50 punching a hole for Vareen or Gray or Ridley.


As a pass catcher, Devlin has been outstanding, thus my statement about the Pats being the best at using a fullback...............my opinion only and not a statement of fact.


I'll leave now and check on my pasta sauce that I'm making for my family for tomorrow. The wife and I have been married 40 years tomorrow.

 

[{+}Mother-Marge{+}]

This is why I generally back away from conversations and threads. I never, ever said anything about Brady doing anything and Manning not. Some participants in these threads take everything stated by a non fan of their team as an insult or a demeaning to their team. My message was neither. CD, you stated you haven't seen enough of NE to make an evaluation and I understand because you don't watch them every week.


Earlier in the season, Devlin was much more involved in the offense....before Brady started feeling more comfortable with LaFell and Gronk. AND before Gronk felt as comfortable being on the field as he does now. He was interviewed after the Bronco game and he said the he knew he had to get past another meeting with TJ Ward before he would mentally be back 100%. He took a couple of shots from TJ and he cleared his last hurdle. Back to the point..........Devlin is a bit faster than the average FB, but he doesn't block as well as most. He needs to be able to take on a defensive player at the line, slide off and be able to turn around immediately for a pass. They've used him several times as the lead blocker at the goal line and he's only 50-50 punching a hole for Vareen or Gray or Ridley.


As a pass catcher, Devlin has been outstanding, thus my statement about the Pats being the best at using a fullback...............my opinion only and not a statement of fact.


I'll leave now and check on my pasta sauce that I'm making for my family for tomorrow. The wife and I have been married 40 years tomorrow.

....congrats B-K....on your 40th.

 

[randymon]

....congrats B-K....on your 40th.

Ditto on 40th and my mouth is watering thinking of homemade pasta sauce. She` a lucky woman

 

[randymon]

Hey BK. We know how tough it is to articulate your thoughts into writing. Many times it can be misconscrued. I think with your last post, you were kinda pro 2 back and how it has worked at times with NE. But you thought that with Manning, you`ld be taking to many weapons away from him and also putting him in position to get injured. Well let me see if I can do a decent job of trying to explain myself with the OP and also engage your comments in the process. Denver has not done a very good job in short ydge and goal-line situations with a single back set ( esp with Hilman or Ball for that matter). Here`s why I think Denver might have more succsess with the two back set in those esp inside the 10 yd line.
#1- with a short field, the advantage actually favors the D in passing. To congested and wrs are up against tight coverage. The window has been narrowed severely.
#2- Because Denver "rarely" gives a 2 back look, the D will be def be a little off guard.
#3- You can have 4-5 plays called off either the I formation or T formation that favors the run of course but also a quick slant/ tackle elgible/fade,etc.
# 4- If Manning hands the ball off, the chance of injury is surely less likely than throwing the ball.
#5 - If a team needs too (on a reg basis) have to throw the ball on 2nd/3rd and short, I don`t care how many weapons that qb has, they will fail to make in thru playoffs let alone a SB. My point is/was Denver needs to either mix it up with 2 backs, or grow some balls on the O-line and start moving the pile in those running situations, or just keep being a finness pansy team that will get their asses handed to them again like Seattle did and other balanced D`s ( your Pats included) when it comes to Nov and Dec and you can`t run the ball when you need to, your in bigga trouble. Hope I did a better job this time around BK

 

[DownSetHutch]

I wouldn't mind seeing a little 2-back set mixed into the offense, but as already noted, we don't have the ideal personnel to run that consistently well. I just want to see us be able to pick up 2-3 yards on the ground when we need it, however we get it done. As randymon noted, if we can't run effectively in short yardage situations, and can't keep defenses honest, we are going to get bounced in the post-season.

 

[cdumler7]

This is why I generally back away from conversations and threads. I never, ever said anything about Brady doing anything and Manning not. Some participants in these threads take everything stated by a non fan of their team as an insult or a demeaning to their team. My message was neither. CD, you stated you haven't seen enough of NE to make an evaluation and I understand because you don't watch them every week.


Earlier in the season, Devlin was much more involved in the offense....before Brady started feeling more comfortable with LaFell and Gronk. AND before Gronk felt as comfortable being on the field as he does now. He was interviewed after the Bronco game and he said the he knew he had to get past another meeting with TJ Ward before he would mentally be back 100%. He took a couple of shots from TJ and he cleared his last hurdle. Back to the point..........Devlin is a bit faster than the average FB, but he doesn't block as well as most. He needs to be able to take on a defensive player at the line, slide off and be able to turn around immediately for a pass. They've used him several times as the lead blocker at the goal line and he's only 50-50 punching a hole for Vareen or Gray or Ridley.


As a pass catcher, Devlin has been outstanding, thus my statement about the Pats being the best at using a fullback...............my opinion only and not a statement of fact.


I'll leave now and check on my pasta sauce that I'm making for my family for tomorrow. The wife and I have been married 40 years tomorrow.

Congrats on 40-years sir!

Now understand we do not take everything said by outside fans as an insult. Just your post was very confusing. In one part you are talking about teams needing to run the 2-back set and how Brady and the Pats are the best team in the league at doing it. Yet then in another you say Manning should not run that type of offense. To me the Pats ran the 2-back set earlier in the year more consistently out of necessity not because they actually think that is the best offense for them. Gronk was still recovering and they were still bringing along the other TE at that point. Now that they are on the same page as Brady like you said they only ran with a FB twice. The best teams in the league to me stay committed to running that 2-back set not just use it more as a decoy. The Broncos do the same thing of using it as a decoy system not the primary set up. Plus when the Pats were using it on a more regular basis they were looking more like an average team than what they are now of a top-tier team. So again I just don't think you can call them a great 2-back offense when really that is what they struggled with the most plus the run game has been pretty bad most of the year.