Hester the next Bears HOFer?

[Lake Shore Drive]

This article sure seems to think so and frankly I don't see how he WOULDN'T get in, and on the first ballot at that. Unless they change the rules on kickoffs, it's quite possible that we'll not see anyone break his records in our lifetimes. Legends always get in.

Will Hester be the Bears' next Hall of Famer?

 

[richig07]

This article sure seems to think so and frankly I don't see how he WOULDN'T get in, and on the first ballot at that. Unless they change the rules on kickoffs, it's quite possible that we'll not see anyone break his records in our lifetimes. Legends always get in.

Will Hester be the Bears' next Hall of Famer?

I am very against special teamers getting in. However, the moment that they let Ray Guy in was when I knew Hester would get in. Then they let Morten Anderson in... "Hey, everybody have a trophy! Kickers are people too!" There's now zero way that they can keep Hester out.

Hester's time in Chicago was perhaps the most fun I ever had watching an individual Bears player. The guy literally turned me into a little kid with the anticipation of him breaking one. Every time he received a kick with some room to run... man... it was like that feeling you had watching a childhood sports hero for the first time live in person. It was just a pure and thrilling experience. It was the epitome of what sports are supposed to be.

That being said, I am not for any of it. Not Ray Guy, not Adam Vinatieri, not Morten Anderson....... not Devin Hester. But I'll be as happy as anyone the day it happens.

 

[BearsWillWin]

I'd love to see Hester there...but Olin Kreutz should be first.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

I'd love to see Hester there...but Olin Kreutz should be first.

Could not agree more.

 

[averagejoe]

If Hester gets in, I hope he has an interpreter for his acceptance speech.

 

[beardown07]

He's a generational talent that changed the game and achieved unprecedented accomplishments.

He should be a first-ballot HOFer.

 

[richig07]

I'd love to see Hester there...but Olin Kreutz should be first.

1x all-pro and that same AP is going to vote him into the HOF? Fat chance.

Just saying... I liked him too

 

[BearsWillWin]

1x all-pro and that same AP is going to vote him into the HOF? Fat chance.

Just saying... I liked him too

1 first team All Pro....1 2nd team All Pro.

6 Pro Bowls and a member of the NFL's 2000s All Decade team.

 

[richig07]

1 first team All Pro....1 2nd team All Pro.

6 Pro Bowls and a member of the NFL's 2000s All Decade team.

That's a hall of really good resume.

I always thought he was a bit overrated anyway. He always got pushed around by elite talent and benefited from good guard play.

 

[BearsWillWin]

That's a hall of really good resume.

I always thought he was a bit overrated anyway. He always got pushed around by elite talent and benefited from good guard play.

Some of his best career games came against dominant nose tackles like BJ Raji and Pat Williams.

What good guard play? Roberto Garza was considered a stud when he played next to Olin....and quickly became a turd when he was asked to fill in for him.

Kreutz was an anchor and lifted the play of the line physically and otherwise as a leader. He was tough, he was mean, and he was really, really good.

 

[richig07]

Some of his best career games came against dominant nose tackles like BJ Raji and Pat Williams.

What good guard play? Roberto Garza was considered a stud when he played next to Olin....and quickly became a turd when he was asked to fill in for him.

Kreutz was an anchor and lifted the play of the line physically and otherwise as a leader. He was tough, he was mean, and he was really, really good.

By the time Raji got into the league in 09 - Kruetz was pretty washed up. His last season as an elite center was 06 and it sort of slowly deteriorated after that. Raji also flamed out pretty quick and we were 1-5 vs GB when Kruetz played Raji while the offense typically did nothing. I don't much recall Olin ever dominating Pat Williams. We had a few good offensive outputs against Minnesota during the Pat/Kevin Williams era in 08 and 09. Not really sure what the head-to-head was like, though. Throughout most of Kruetz prime, Pat Williams was in Buffalo. Pat Williams never went to Minnesota until he was 33 and Kruetz was 30.

In Kruetz all-pro season - he was apart of what many considered the best offensive line in football. Rueben Brown was a pro bowler on one side and Garza on the other. Tait was a pro bowler and Miller was extremely reliable during that time period as well. In fact, I don't think it is a coincidence that Kruetz decline began when Brown fell off the face of the earth in 07.

From Kruetz rookie year through 03 he had Chris Villarial and a pro bowler in Big Cat. Then he had Rueben Brown and Garza at guard. With Tait and Miller at the tackles.

Roberto Garza was considered a stud when he played next to Olin....and quickly became a turd when he was asked to fill in for him.

This is rather confusing. Garza was the one stable and reliable part of our line in 11, 12 and 13. He received high praise in those seasons. PFF ranked in the top half of the league among centers each season. Garza is actually apart of an argument to use against Olin. We got better center play out of Garza in those three seasons than we had out of Olin since 07. 2014, he fell off... but that whole team was a disaster. Plus, he was 35.

 

[BearsWillWin]

By the time Raji got into the league in 09 - Kruetz was pretty washed up. His last season as an elite center was 06 and it sort of slowly deteriorated after that. Raji also flamed out pretty quick and we were 1-5 vs GB when Kruetz played Raji while the offense typically did nothing. I don't much recall Olin ever dominating Pat Williams. We had a few good offensive outputs against Minnesota during the Pat/Kevin Williams era in 08 and 09. Not really sure what the head-to-head was like, though. Throughout most of Kruetz prime, Pat Williams was in Buffalo. Pat Williams never went to Minnesota until he was 33 and Kruetz was 30.

Go back and watch the games from 09 and 10 and watch Kreutz dominate Raji. And watch him leverage guys like Pat Williams in other games. You could write a textbook of offensive line play off the way he took it to those guys.

His mechanics at center and his awareness were superior to most other guys in the league not named Kevin Mawae.

Team offensive output isn't how you should be judging a center.

In Kruetz all-pro season - he was apart of what many considered the best offensive line in football. Rueben Brown was a pro bowler on one side and Garza on the other. Tait was a pro bowler and Miller was extremely reliable during that time period as well. In fact, I don't think it is a coincidence that Kruetz decline began when Brown fell off the face of the earth in 07.

So because other guys around Kreutz were good.....Kreutz isn't as good as anyone thinks he is? Is that the logic being deployed here?

From Kruetz rookie year through 03 he had Chris Villarial and a pro bowler in Big Cat. Then he had Rueben Brown and Garza at guard. With Tait and Miller at the tackles.

And on the flip side of that.....Villarial, Big Cat, Brown, Garza, Tait, and Miller all had Kreutz. That argument works both ways.

This is rather confusing. Garza was the one stable and reliable part of our line in 11, 12 and 13. He received high praise in those seasons. PFF ranked in the top half of the league among centers each season. Garza is actually apart of an argument to use against Olin. We got better center play out of Garza in those three seasons than we had out of Olin since 07. 2014, he fell off... but that whole team was a disaster. Plus, he was 35.

Above you attribute Kreutz's decline to someone leaving....here you contribute Garza's decline to age.....you seem to move the goal posts wherever you need them to be.

PFF rankings for offensive linemen are crap and should never be used in an argument.

 

[richig07]

Go back and watch the games from 09 and 10 and watch Kreutz dominate Raji. And watch him leverage guys like Pat Williams in other games. You could write a textbook of offensive line play off the way he took it to those guys.

His mechanics at center and his awareness were superior to most other guys in the league not named Kevin Mawae.

Team offensive output isn't how you should be judging a center.



So because other guys around Kreutz were good.....Kreutz isn't as good as anyone thinks he is? Is that the logic being deployed here?



And on the flip side of that.....Villarial, Big Cat, Brown, Garza, Tait, and Miller all had Kreutz. That argument works both ways.



Above you attribute Kreutz's decline to someone leaving....here you contribute Garza's decline to age.....you seem to move the goal posts wherever you need them to be.

PFF rankings for offensive linemen are crap and should never be used in an argument.

So because other guys around Kreutz were good.....Kreutz isn't as good as anyone thinks he is? Is that the logic being deployed here?

No. I am merely backing my assertion that Kruetz benefited from good guard play. An assertion you attempted to dismiss while only mentioning Garza. Therefore, it warranted me pointing out the good guards who he played with

I said "Hall of really good" for Kruetz. He was really good, he was an elite center for a good stretch of time. He just isn't one of the best ever.

Team offensive output isn't how you should be judging a center.

Seeing as I can't go back and watch his performances on All-22 game film, we don't have anything else to go off of really. Pat and that line generally had their way with ours. As did Raji and the Pack in 2009 and 2010. I can't just close my eyes and recall every play. I know for the short time that Raji/Kruetz had their careers cross over, Kruetz's downfall was pretty apparent.

And on the flip side of that.....Villarial, Big Cat, Brown, Garza, Tait, and Miller all had Kreutz. That argument works both ways.

Of course. They had an elite center. I never disputed that. Again, you initially cited only Garza and sort of dismissed the idea that he had talent around him. Therefore, I cite the talent.


Above you attribute Kreutz's decline to someone leaving....here you contribute Garza's decline to age.....you seem to move the goal posts wherever you need them to be.

A) Of course Kruetz's age had something to do with it.

B) Garza's decline was a bit easier to recognize as a physical thing. As not much changed around him personnel wise and he just fell off of a cliff in 2014.

PFF rankings for offensive linemen are crap and should never be used in an argument

Hmm...

I am curious as to...

A) Why are they crap? It's probably the only way a fan can get a legitimate read on how an offensive lineman is playing. Outside of the small glances you get on selective replays. Live action TV is built to follow the ball and skill players. There aren't many mainstream stats which evaluate OL play.

I suppose you can get an All-22 subscription and dissect every play yourself. However, 99% of fans are not going to do that. I have a subscription, but I also work full-time and have other things I enjoy. lol

B) What do you use to evaluate OL play?

 

[BearsWillWin]

No. I am merely backing my assertion that Kruetz benefited from good guard play. An assertion you attempted to dismiss while only mentioning Garza. Therefore, it warranted me pointing out the good guards who he played with

I said "Hall of really good" for Kruetz. He was really good, he was an elite center for a good stretch of time. He just isn't one of the best ever.

I don't dismiss there was good guard play. There was. I dismiss the logic that good guard play is why Kreutz was so good.

If he was elite, as you say here, that means he was among the best of his era. Which would mean he should be in the Hall of Fame. Players that make the Hall make it because they were elite as compared to their peers that played in the same era.

Seeing as I can't go back and watch his performances on All-22 game film, we don't have anything else to go off of really. Pat and that line generally had their way with ours. As did Raji and the Pack in 2009 and 2010. I can't just close my eyes and recall every play. I know for the short time that Raji/Kruetz had their careers cross over, Kruetz's downfall was pretty apparent.

In 2009 Raji had 2 solo tackles against the Bears in 1 game. In 2010....he had 2 solo tackles in 2 games. No sacks in either year. Williams definitely won some individual battles against Kreutz...but saying he had his way would be a stretch.

If all you look at is the end result...then you have no understanding of offensive line play.

The Bears weakness in those years existed at tackle with names like Omiyale, Webb, Chris Williams, and a less than elite version or Orlando Pace getting starts.

Of course. They had an elite center. I never disputed that. Again, you initially cited only Garza and sort of dismissed the idea that he had talent around him. Therefore, I cite the talent.

Again...all I'm dismissing is your notion that Kreutz is overrated.

A) Of course Kruetz's age had something to do with it.

B) Garza's decline was a bit easier to recognize as a physical thing. As not much changed around him personnel wise and he just fell off of a cliff in 2014.

In my opinion the talent around Garza got better as the years progressed with him as a center. He went from anchoring a line where he was surrounded by Webb, Williams, Chris Spencer, and Chilo Rachal....to a line where he was surrounded by Matt Slauson, Kyle Long, Bushrod (overpaid but massive upgrade to Webb), and Jordan Mills. Certainly age attributed to his decline...as it does every player.

Hmm...

I am curious as to...

A) Why are they crap? It's probably the only way a fan can get a legitimate read on how an offensive lineman is playing. Outside of the small glances you get on selective replays. Live action TV is built to follow the ball and skill players. There aren't many mainstream stats which evaluate OL play.

I suppose you can get an All-22 subscription and dissect every play yourself. However, 99% of fans are not going to do that. I have a subscription, but I also work full-time and have other things I enjoy. lol

B) What do you use to evaluate OL play?

PFF is a really subjective grading system to begin with. For every position.

For offensive line play it's really murky. Because the person doing the grading doesn't take into account whether the line is doing man blocking or zone....or what anyone's assignment was or what anyone presnap audibles were...because they don't know. They can only look at the result of the play and give a grade.

A tackle, guard, or center can do everything within their power and everything they were supposed to do on a specific play and receive a negative grade because the play broke down at another point and was out of their control.

The only people really equipped to judge offensive line play on any kind of grading system are coaches because when they see the All 22 they have a better idea of what the play calls are. PFF doesn't. And they admit that.

Offensive line is the one area I think PFF should avoid because their grades are highly misleading.

I do watch All 22 film because I really enjoy it. I get every fan isn't going to and that is fine. But you should still use your eyes and not metrics. There's a lot you can see on a regular broadcast if you know what to look for.

I evaluate all the football I see with my eyes first and my eyes only. I use metrics and stats to corroborate and backup the things I see....not to form my initial opinion.

 

[richig07]

I don't dismiss there was good guard play. There was. I dismiss the logic that good guard play is why Kreutz was so good.

If he was elite, as you say here, that means he was among the best of his era. Which would mean he should be in the Hall of Fame. Players that make the Hall make it because they were elite as compared to their peers that played in the same era.



In 2009 Raji had 2 solo tackles against the Bears in 1 game. In 2010....he had 2 solo tackles in 2 games. No sacks in either year. Williams definitely won some individual battles against Kreutz...but saying he had his way would be a stretch.

If all you look at is the end result...then you have no understanding of offensive line play.

The Bears weakness in those years existed at tackle with names like Omiyale, Webb, Chris Williams, and a less than elite version or Orlando Pace getting starts.



Again...all I'm dismissing is your notion that Kreutz is overrated.



In my opinion the talent around Garza got better as the years progressed with him as a center. He went from anchoring a line where he was surrounded by Webb, Williams, Chris Spencer, and Chilo Rachal....to a line where he was surrounded by Matt Slauson, Kyle Long, Bushrod (overpaid but massive upgrade to Webb), and Jordan Mills. Certainly age attributed to his decline...as it does every player.



PFF is a really subjective grading system to begin with. For every position.

For offensive line play it's really murky. Because the person doing the grading doesn't take into account whether the line is doing man blocking or zone....or what anyone's assignment was or what anyone presnap audibles were...because they don't know. They can only look at the result of the play and give a grade.

A tackle, guard, or center can do everything within their power and everything they were supposed to do on a specific play and receive a negative grade because the play broke down at another point and was out of their control.

The only people really equipped to judge offensive line play on any kind of grading system are coaches because when they see the All 22 they have a better idea of what the play calls are. PFF doesn't. And they admit that.

Offensive line is the one area I think PFF should avoid because their grades are highly misleading.

I do watch All 22 film because I really enjoy it. I get every fan isn't going to and that is fine. But you should still use your eyes and not metrics. There's a lot you can see on a regular broadcast if you know what to look for.

I evaluate all the football I see with my eyes first and my eyes only. I use metrics and stats to corroborate and backup the things I see....not to form my initial opinion.

If he was elite, as you say here, that means he was among the best of his era. Which would mean he should be in the Hall of Fame. Players that make the Hall make it because they were elite as compared to their peers that played in the same era.

No, it means in a multitude of years he was among the elite that he played with. Matt Forte spent a lot of his career producing at an elite level. The majority of the years he played, he was top 4 or 5 NFL RB. He's not a hall of famer.

This is who Olin Kruetz is. I find his HOF prospects only slightly better than Forte. It would be a shock to many, I think.

If all you look at is the end result...then you have no understanding of offensive line play.

This is a rather dishonest point. I literally explained to you that I don't do that. Along with the fact that we didn't have much to go off of, sitting here a decade later. I don't go by final results of football games to determine individual play. I merely said that it's essentially all we have and it's not as though Kruetz and that line had notable standout performances vs either player. I used the fact that those two teams kicked our ass during that period of time, to basically say... "Yeah, I don't recall Kruetz doing that".

We don't have anything concrete to go off of.


For offensive line play it's really murky. Because the person doing the grading doesn't take into account whether the line is doing man blocking or zone....or what anyone's assignment was or what anyone presnap audibles were...because they don't know. They can only look at the result of the play and give a grade.

You're regurgitating player's criticisms of PFF which have been refuted by offensive line coaches and coordinators who have gone into take a gander at the system. Paul Alexander was the longest tenured OL coach in the NFL at the time when he criticized PFF. They invited him into look at their system and take a shot at grading a couple games of O-line play. The conclusion? Alexander and PFF's usual staff disagreed on a total of 12 out of 600 plays.

Alexander walked out an investor. This also happened to Mike Martz and a few others critics they invited in.


30 of the 32 NFL teams are also now paying clients of PFF.

It isn't exactly rocket science for a team of hundreds of former front office members, coaches and players to decipher a basic assignment on a play. It ain't fucking morse code. If you have understanding of a coaches scheme and have seen thousands of his plays. You're going to get it...

Figuring out zone vs man or what a player's assignment is? That is quite easy when you watch every single, solitary play over the course of a season. Hell, you can see on TV replays if they're blocking zone or man.



A tackle, guard, or center can do everything within their power and everything they were supposed to do on a specific play and receive a negative grade because the play broke down at another point and was out of their control.

This simply isn't true. I have read PFF evaluations where they will cite a players best play coming when it broke down elsewhere. They'll always note that "you didn't notice it because it went for a 2 yard loss" or something like that. Same thing with a defender blowing up a lineman on a play that went for 20 yards around the other end, etc.


I evaluate all the football I see with my eyes first and my eyes only.

Why should you or me value our "eye test" grade from our damn couch. Over the people at PFF who are watching every player, on every play and giving a film grade... oh... and they're former NFL scouts, GM's and coaches. I mean, that just makes no sense. PFF is the ultimate eye test with people who ACTUALLY know the game.

 

[BearsWillWin]

No, it means in a multitude of years he was among the elite that he played with. Matt Forte spent a lot of his career producing at an elite level. The majority of the years he played, he was top 4 or 5 NFL RB. He's not a hall of famer.

This is who Olin Kruetz is. I find his HOF prospects only slightly better than Forte. It would be a shock to many, I think.

Matt Forte was never elite as compared to his peers. He only topped 1200 yards in a season once and 1000 yards in only half the seasons he played. He was an elite pass catching back....not an elite running back. And when you compare him to guys from his era...Peterson, Foster, MJD, Turner, Lynch, Gore, McCoy, Bell, and others....he definitely takes a back seat to those guys as a runner.

That's a bad comparison. Kreutz...until the very end of his career...would come up in every conversation of elite centers in the game at the time he was playing. Without question. In his era he probably comes 2nd to only Kevin Mawae.

This is a rather dishonest point. I literally explained to you that I don't do that. Along with the fact that we didn't have much to go off of, sitting here a decade later. I don't go by final results of football games to determine individual play. I merely said that it's essentially all we have and it's not as though Kruetz and that line had notable standout performances vs either player. I used the fact that those two teams kicked our ass during that period of time, to basically say... "Yeah, I don't recall Kruetz doing that".

We don't have anything concrete to go off of.

It's not a dishonest point. If all you look at is how the offense played as a whole as a way to judge an offensive lineman's performance....you've failed.

One guy in a group of 11 can play really well while the entire unit overall does poorly.

And it's not all that we have. A lot of those games can still be seen one way or another. So that's dishonesty on your part. It's not like those games have been erased from history.

You're regurgitating player's criticisms of PFF which have been refuted by offensive line coaches and coordinators who have gone into take a gander at the system. Paul Alexander was the longest tenured OL coach in the NFL at the time when he criticized PFF. They invited him into look at their system and take a shot at grading a couple games of O-line play. The conclusion? Alexander and PFF's usual staff disagreed on a total of 12 out of 600 plays.

Alexander walked out an investor. This also happened to Mike Martz and a few others critics they invited in.



30 of the 32 NFL teams are also now paying clients of PFF.

It isn't exactly rocket science for a team of hundreds of former front office members, coaches and players to decipher a basic assignment on a play. It ain't fucking morse code. If you have understanding of a coaches scheme and have seen thousands of his plays. You're going to get it...

Figuring out zone vs man or what a player's assignment is? That is quite easy when you watch every single, solitary play over the course of a season. Hell, you can see on TV replays if they're blocking zone or man.

I don't care how players feel about PFF...I only know how I feel about it.

I think PFF can be a really good tool. I get why scouts and teams use it because it's definitely helpful. It stops being helpful when fanboys use it as their crutch to decide all things football.

I'm a PFF subscriber. I use it all the time. But I take things with a grain of salt and there's no metric that defeats the eye test.

This simply isn't true. I have read PFF evaluations where they will cite a players best play coming when it broke down elsewhere. They'll always note that "you didn't notice it because it went for a 2 yard loss" or something like that. Same thing with a defender blowing up a lineman on a play that went for 20 yards around the other end, etc.

It is true because I've seen it in their grades multiple times. I'm not saying it happens every single time a play breaks down...but it does happen. Because their grading is subjective, not objective.

Why should you or me value our "eye test" grade from our damn couch. Over the people at PFF who are watching every player, on every play and giving a film grade... oh... and they're former NFL scouts, GM's and coaches. I mean, that just makes no sense. PFF is the ultimate eye test with people who ACTUALLY know the game.

So you're comfortable with someone else deciding your opinion for you...is basically what you're saying?

Well....I'm not.

I played football. Not in the NFL and certainly not at anywhere that resembles an elite level. But I played up through college. And after college I spent time as first a trainer and then a position coach at a small college. And when I decided it wasn't for me because I wanted to raise a family I became a teacher and coached football at the high school level for a really long time before the age of retirement snuck up on me.

So while I'm not an NFL scout, no where near being an NFL coach, GM, or anything else....I feel pretty confident I know a few things about football.

And I do use PFF, as I said. I use a few other websites too. I look at stats all the time....I listen to the opinions of NFL analysts. I love seeing players and coaches breakdown film.

But none of that will ever change my opinions that are formed from me just watching football. PFF is not the ultimate eye test....because it uses too many eyes. There are bound to be errors in the system and bound to be skewering of some sort.

What I see firsthand means more to me than anything else. If you want numbers on a website to dictate how you feel....then that's on you.

I think this conversation has reached it's limit.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

I am very against special teamers getting in. However, the moment that they let Ray Guy in was when I knew Hester would get in. Then they let Morten Anderson in... "Hey, everybody have a trophy! Kickers are people too!" There's now zero way that they can keep Hester out.

Hester's time in Chicago was perhaps the most fun I ever had watching an individual Bears player. The guy literally turned me into a little kid with the anticipation of him breaking one. Every time he received a kick with some room to run... man... it was like that feeling you had watching a childhood sports hero for the first time live in person. It was just a pure and thrilling experience. It was the epitome of what sports are supposed to be.

That being said, I am not for any of it. Not Ray Guy, not Adam Vinatieri, not Morten Anderson....... not Devin Hester. But I'll be as happy as anyone the day it happens.

I’m not against special readers getting in. The bar needs to be much higher than the rest of the field though. Hester fits that description. I don’t know much about Morten Anderson as a kicker, but have heard ray guy was the best punter of all time. If that’s true, Hester and guy deserve it. Not sure about anderson though.

 

[BigFin]

Hester was one of the biggest things in the NFL the first few years of his career and probably the best ever at his position.

Someone once said about being worthy of the HOF: "Can you tell a story about the history of the NFL without him?" I'd say if you were doing a 30 minute documentary on the NFL from 2006-2010, he'd be a big topic. (But I consider that to not be a great time period in NFL history.)

 

[BsGenius]

Olin should definitely be in. I don't understand why this is even debatable.

I'm not a fan of STers getting into the Hall but if you're willing to allow it, Hester should be in.

End of thread. The genius has made his decision.

 

[BearsWillWin]

Very few STers have ever altered games quite as much as Hester did.