Help me understand

[redseat]

I think it is funny when a starter is owning the others teams starting line up for 8 innings & has less than a 100 pitches & they pull him for the closer so the closer can get the "save" & the closer blows the game!
Obviously this has to do with the stat, not what was best for the team.
I'm not a pittsburgh fan but I think their starter gave up 1 run (2-1 game) in 8 innings on 93 pitches (or close to that) & they brought in a closer to lose the game for them. Why not let the starter pitch the 9th, unless he said he was done or something?
Is it really that important to get the stat of a save? (for the team, not the closer)

It appears that this is the case for managers. Stats, stats,stats. Heck they look at hitting stats and switch pitchers based on that, even IF the pitcher currently is on fire.

 

[Toucanbird]

I think this just goes to show the importance of having a high-quality deep bullpen instead of having a strong setup guy and closer and crap in the rest of the pen.

The Brewers had the situation on Sunday where they played 14 innings and they saved K-Rod until the 14th when they took the lead. Estrada only pitched 6 innings due to pitch count, so the Crew had to rely on a lot of their pen guys to pitch two innings. They threw out their entire pen in that game other than Wang, who is essentially a garbage time pitcher who will only throw if their up big or down big (he's a "project" pitcher).

 

[uncfan103]

I think this just goes to show the importance of having a high-quality deep bullpen instead of having a strong setup guy and closer and crap in the rest of the pen.

The Brewers had the situation on Sunday where they played 14 innings and they saved K-Rod until the 14th when they took the lead. Estrada only pitched 6 innings due to pitch count, so the Crew had to rely on a lot of their pen guys to pitch two innings. They threw out their entire pen in that game other than Wang, who is essentially a garbage time pitcher who will only throw if their up big or down big (he's a "project" pitcher).

They're lucky they made it to the 14th for him. It's hard to understand why these teams are trying to save their closers for innings that might not exist, and won't be as important when they do come up

 

[uncfan103]

I think it is funny when a starter is owning the others teams starting line up for 8 innings & has less than a 100 pitches & they pull him for the closer so the closer can get the "save" & the closer blows the game!
Obviously this has to do with the stat, not what was best for the team.
I'm not a pittsburgh fan but I think their starter gave up 1 run (2-1 game) in 8 innings on 93 pitches (or close to that) & they brought in a closer to lose the game for them. Why not let the starter pitch the 9th, unless he said he was done or something?
Is it really that important to get the stat of a save? (for the team, not the closer)

It appears that way lol

 

[AnotherLevel55]

I don't think it has to do with stats, can't tell me all managers are stat hungry for their players, maybe a few morons out there, but ALL? I don't think so.

It's a different animal trying to close games than pitching the 7th or 8th doesn't matter who's due up, there's a lot more pressure and not many can't do it.

My opinion the managers got it right to save the closer on the road, at home you use them in the 9th. If you use your closer than ok you preserve the lead, but if you score than who comes in to close when all the best relievers are used? gonna bring in a young inexperienced or a position players get out of here.

The Braves got it right just like every manager and bring in the long reliever and see if you can get 3 maybe 4 5 innings if it goes that far, use your shut down closer shut down the game and leave no hope.

Being a Braves fan I for one don't overrate the closing position because seeing Kimbrel just make it look easy when before him and a year with Wagner, the Braves blew so many games with likes of Wickman, Kolb, Reitsma it made me sick. Having a guy like Kimbrel has been wayyyy better.

 

[apachef4]

I don't think it has to do with stats, can't tell me all managers are stat hungry for their players, maybe a few morons out there, but ALL? I don't think so.

It's a different animal trying to close games than pitching the 7th or 8th doesn't matter who's due up, there's a lot more pressure and not many can't do it.

My opinion the managers got it right to save the closer on the road, at home you use them in the 9th. If you use your closer than ok you preserve the lead, but if you score than who comes in to close when all the best relievers are used? gonna bring in a young inexperienced or a position players get out of here.

The Braves got it right just like every manager and bring in the long reliever and see if you can get 3 maybe 4 5 innings if it goes that far, use your shut down closer shut down the game and leave no hope.

Being a Braves fan I for one don't overrate the closing position because seeing Kimbrel just make it look easy when before him and a year with Wagner, the Braves blew so many games with likes of Wickman, Kolb, Reitsma it made me sick. Having a guy like Kimbrel has been wayyyy better.

For the few that do have one, it must be an incredible blessing.

To the OP, I agree that managers tend to be way to rigid in their using of certain players, closers chief among them. Many games are blown in the 8th inning before the closer, your supposedly best reliever, ever gets a chance to help the club. And as someone else pointed out, closers are often brought in to close a game when a starter or another reliever is sharp as hell and mowing batters down, only to blow it. As a consequence, the closers themselves develop a comfort level of only pitching in those situations and have letdowns in non-save situations. A vicious cycle.

My personal opinion is that the manager's rigidness comes from the fact that they are basically ALL ex-ballplayers, which I never understood. Sure, ex-ballplayers can "relate" better to current ballplayers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the best for the job. Someone can have a great baseball mind that just didn't have the coordination or ability to play well. You see non-high level players become coaches in football, why not in baseball? There's no, or very few, new ideas brought into the game. The ex-ballplayers draw from their own experiences and the ideas that they were taught, some of them very flawed, in my opinion. Sorry if I got OT.

 

[uncfan103]

I don't think it has to do with stats, can't tell me all managers are stat hungry for their players, maybe a few morons out there, but ALL? I don't think so.

It's a different animal trying to close games than pitching the 7th or 8th doesn't matter who's due up, there's a lot more pressure and not many can't do it.

My opinion the managers got it right to save the closer on the road, at home you use them in the 9th. If you use your closer than ok you preserve the lead, but if you score than who comes in to close when all the best relievers are used? gonna bring in a young inexperienced or a position players get out of here.

The Braves got it right just like every manager and bring in the long reliever and see if you can get 3 maybe 4 5 innings if it goes that far, use your shut down closer shut down the game and leave no hope.

Being a Braves fan I for one don't overrate the closing position because seeing Kimbrel just make it look easy when before him and a year with Wagner, the Braves blew so many games with likes of Wickman, Kolb, Reitsma it made me sick. Having a guy like Kimbrel has been wayyyy better.

As a fan of Kimbrel you're okay with letting Avilan lose the game in the bottom of the tenth of a tie game instead of Kimbrel? If I were a Braves fan, I'd rather Kimbrel pitch because you lose the game if the home team scores so I want my best reliever in the game. I'm going to keep using the best pitcher I have available and I'm going to hope to score eventually. I'd rather Avilan pitch in situations in which I can afford to give up run(s) and still not lose the game instead of where the game is over and Kimbrel is never used when he does give up a run.

Am I missing something? If you want Kimbrel why do you want him to watch the whole game?

Also, no I don't think they're all stat hungry for their players lol I'm just not sure how else to explain their stupidity. It could just have to do with trying to keep their closers happy.

 

[AnotherLevel55]

As a fan of Kimbrel you're okay with letting Avilan lose the game in the bottom of the tenth of a tie game instead of Kimbrel? If I were a Braves fan, I'd rather Kimbrel pitch because you lose the game if the home team scores so I want my best reliever in the game. I'm going to keep using the best pitcher I have available and I'm going to hope to score eventually. I'd rather Avilan pitch in situations in which I can afford to give up run(s) and still not lose the game instead of where the game is over and Kimbrel is never used when he does give up a run.

Am I missing something? If you want Kimbrel why do you want him to watch the whole game?

Also, no I don't think they're all stat hungry for their players lol I'm just not sure how else to explain their stupidity. It could just have to do with trying to keep their closers happy.

Yes I am okay with Avilan pitching or whoever is out the available that's what they are they for, they are all trusted relievers and the odds are more they'll hold the game than blow it.

If I use Kimbrel and holds the game, then with the odds that my team won't score rather than they will, the game will go on to 11th or 12th and Avilan or whoever still can blow the game in the 11th or 12th just like he could in the 10th, only problem if they hold for the 13th I still know that even if we score we'll have a problem closing the game because my shut down closer was used 2 innings ago for no reason to burn an arm when we can extend another inning to a long reliever.

 

[AnotherLevel55]

While I'm not the one to say what's better or worse, I think that's the logic the managers go by and not to keep their closers happy. Actually most closers would probably rather have been used earlier than later for not wasting warmup pitches, some of them are not happy with being asked to warm up several times a game and not be used.

 

[uncfan103]

Yes I am okay with Avilan pitching or whoever is out the available that's what they are they for, they are all trusted relievers and the odds are more they'll hold the game than blow it.

If I use Kimbrel and holds the game, then with the odds that my team won't score rather than they will, the game will go on to 11th or 12th and Avilan or whoever still can blow the game in the 11th or 12th just like he could in the 10th, only problem if they hold for the 13th I still know that even if we score we'll have a problem closing the game because my shut down closer was used 2 innings ago for no reason to burn an arm when we can extend another inning to a long reliever.

So you're saying Avilan can blow it in the 11th or 12th but in the 10th he'll get the hold because he's a trusted reliever?

You lose the game if he gives up a run in a tie game and Kimbrel never pitches, that's easy to understand. If you pitch your better relievers in the beginning it gives your offense more chances to get runs before you bring in your worse relievers. It makes more sense to bring in the worse reliever up by one rather than in a tie game because if you give up a run in a tie game you lose. If you give up a run after you have scored you win or you get to keep playing and the game isn't over instead of automatically losing.

To say using Kimbrel was only to extend the game is wrong. He was used to make sure that your team didn't lose the game and to give your offense more chances to score and win the game. It's not about who is trusted and who is the closer, but you want you best pitchers pitching as early as possible from the bottom of ninth forward. Save your worst relievers for when your best ones have had their chance. Don't lose the game because your worst, even though trusted, reliever pitched and the other guys just watched. Let the worst reliever pitch after all of your best ones have.

 

[uncfan103]

While I'm not the one to say what's better or worse, I think that's the logic the managers go by and not to keep their closers happy. Actually most closers would probably rather have been used earlier than later for not wasting warmup pitches, some of them are not happy with being asked to warm up several times a game and not be used.

Crashburn Alley ? Not Again!

Maybe this will help you understand, you'd rather Kimbrel lose you the game than Avilan. At least I would want to know we lost because they scored on the best pitcher we had available.

Papelbon, recently signed to a four-year, $50 million contract and easily the Phillies’ best reliever, sat in the bullpen without so much as getting up to stretch because the Phillies’ manager is too entrenched in baseball orthodoxy to put his team in a better position to go home with a victory.

 

[AnotherLevel55]

Here's the logic in better terms for you to understand, the road team will only win in extra innings when their closer pitches, other pitchers will hold thats what they're supposed to do, use the long inning reliever get the lead and then use the closer.

I wanna use my long reliever knowing I still have my closer if the game goes too far.

 

[uncfan103]

Here's the logic in better terms for you to understand, the road team will only win in extra innings when their closer pitches, other pitchers will hold thats what they're supposed to do, use the long inning reliever get the lead and then use the closer.

I wanna use my long reliever knowing I still have my closer if the game goes too far.

And if you wanna do that it's fine. But I don't understand it. It terms of tryin to win the game I don't see it being beneficial. And you haven't given me any reason to believe that it is. You keep repeating that you need the closer to close without giving any reason as to why you need him to close, why you don't mind him not pitching and losing the game and you're expecting me to just agree that it's smart. The road team has a better chance of winning if they pitch their closer before their scrub gets a loss, do they not? If not why not? It's not like kimbrel is the only pitcher the braes have that can legally get a save. Why let your long reliever give up a run in his third inning instead of the fourth? If he gives it up in the fourth extra it could be the difference in the loss and a win

 

[AnotherLevel55]

I did give a reason when i said not many pitchers can close a game, and if you wanna win on the road you have to close it out, so you might as well save the closer to close the win. By your logic you wanna run kimbrel out the for the 9 10 11 just keep sending him since he's their best pitcher.

 

[uncfan103]

I did give a reason when i said not many pitchers can close a game, and if you wanna win on the road you have to close it out, so you might as well save the closer to close the win. By your logic you wanna run kimbrel out the for the 9 10 11 just keep sending him since he's their best pitcher.

No, my logic is to keep sending the best available. Kimbrel isn't available to pitch three innings...but your logic is that avilan (for example) can't go an inning with the lead. If he can't do that, how can he pitch in a more meaningful inning in which giving up a run loses you the game?

 

[AnotherLevel55]

No, my logic is to keep sending the best available. Kimbrel isn't available to pitch three innings...but your logic is that avilan (for example) can't go an inning with the lead. If he can't do that, how can he pitch in a more meaningful inning in which giving up a run loses you the game?

My logic is to have the best available to seal the victory because not many can close out a game. And I am trusting Avilan or Schlosser for 1 or 2+ innings and if they allow the game winning run then so be it, cause if the closer had been used, the loss would just be delayed by an inning.

 

[uncfan103]

My logic is to have the best available to seal the victory because not many can close out a game. And I am trusting Avilan or Schlosser for 1 or 2+ innings and if they allow the game winning run then so be it, cause if the closer had been used, the loss would just be delayed by an inning.

The loss is only delayed by an inning if
A) your team doesn't score that inning
Or
B) the reliever you think should go 1-2 scoreless innings before kimbrel actually gives up a run

There's no reason to assume your offense is never going to score. Otherwise just pitch a position player and move on to tomorrow.

Also, it's easier to get a save than to pitch a scoreless inning so that's why it makes more sense for the better pitcher in a tie game

What am I missing? Or is it just that avilan and schlosser can't pitch with a lead?

When would you bring in your closer? Before or after a starter or a position player or would you let mark Loretta pitch before your best pitcher too?

 

[AnotherLevel55]

The loss is only delayed by an inning if
A) your team doesn't score that inning
Or
B) the reliever you think should go 1-2 scoreless innings before kimbrel actually gives up a run

There's no reason to assume your offense is never going to score. Otherwise just pitch a position player and move on to tomorrow.

Also, it's easier to get a save than to pitch a scoreless inning so that's why it makes more sense for the better pitcher in a tie game

What am I missing? Or is it just that avilan and schlosser can't pitch with a lead?

When would you bring in your closer? Before or after a starter or a position player or would you let mark Loretta pitch before your best pitcher too?

The odds of my team not scoring is greater than it is them scoring.

It is not easier to get a save than to pitch a scoreless inning

They can pitch with the lead, it's just been proven time and time again that not every pitcher can close a game, is it the pressure? I don't know, its just the way it is.

You would bring your closer in a tie only after all the relievers are used, before a starter or a position player. while the closer if finishing his outing, a starter better be availabe and warmed up to take over, I don't think many managers would put a position player in to pitch other than a blow out game.

 

[uncfan103]

The odds of my team not scoring is greater than it is them scoring.

It is not easier to get a save than to pitch a scoreless inning

They can pitch with the lead, it's just been proven time and time again that not every pitcher can close a game, is it the pressure? I don't know, its just the way it is.

You would bring your closer in a tie only after all the relievers are used, before a starter or a position player. while the closer if finishing his outing, a starter better be availabe and warmed up to take over, I don't think many managers would put a position player in to pitch other than a blow out game.

So it's easier to pitch a scoreless inning in a tie game than to pitch with a lead in which case giving up runs isn't going to lose you the game? There's more pressure in the bottom half of a tie game.

Koji got a save last night giving up a run.

 

[AnotherLevel55]

No there isn't more pressure in a tie game. A tie game is anybody's game, if he allows a run you lose but it's not like we're expecting to win. A game where you're winning and need to close out is more pressure because the game is in the bag and if he make mistakes and blow the game it's all on him.

And what about the first phrase about the odds why don't you mention about that.