H2H Category discussion

[TKOSpikes]

We were likely to discuss scoring changes for the MBBRL anyway, but milk has brought it to the table... and why not, it's pretty quiet around here lately. So, as per milk, here is it's own thread....

Although I think we can all agree the first proposal was a little off (no way IP should be a category...might as well have AB), there probably are better ways to arrange the categories.

Since points is not an option (the best way, IMO), the question is, how to sort out the best categories to have... and let's not forget, it doesn't have to be five.

Without really thinking about it, my favorites are:

OBP, SLG, HR, RBI, SB, R, K -VS- ERA, WHIP, K, QS, S, H, L

My reasoning is simple, the majority agreed on OBP over AVG. Adding SLG gives doubles hitters an uptick. And adding K's as a negative cat hurts the owner who "overplays" SLG, because a bad average isn't here to hurt them. The other four are mainstays.

The first two cats are a must for pitching... it's not like we're gonna go to FIP or anything like that. K/9 I hate, since it can be swayed by relievers. Having an advantage with 2-start pitchers is part of the game, IMO... and it doesn't always guarantee the cat. Lots of reasons we all know of to have QS over Wins... but by adding Losses as a negative does two things; counteracts the hitting negative, and doesn't totally "reward" the baseline QS when it ends up in a loss. Yes, this is out of the pitcher's hands most times (if they lose 3-2), but that's also part of the game. We'd all come up with the same five names if we all wrote down 10 tough luck pitchers, so it's not like it's surprising. Then we have Saves. It has to be a category, it's like a kicker, only we don't just start one. Holds I don't like all that much, it would require expanded rosters, IMO, so I see why doing S+H would be a good change. It's tough adding a 7th pitching category though. (off the top of my head... maybe we just keep Wins in?)


So many ways to go... these are mine. I still think agreeing on point totals would be easier/more accurate... but that's another discussion.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

thanks TKO for starting this thread...

First off you guys convinced me to change the IP category to QS instead... so now my pitching would be ERA,WHIP, K/9, QS, W + S

I hate your suggestion(sorry to use the word hate- but it is true)...
the problem with adding too many categories is that there is less of a hurt to punt a category... and in your situation if you punt Saves and SBs you can easily be strong in 12 of the 14 categories...

I really don't think going anything past 5X5 is worth it, just because I have never seen a 6th category that I like... Maybe in offense there would be one... the best 6X6 offense I have seen is (BA,BB,SB,HR,RBI,Runs)...

and to be honest I like BA more than OBP for fantasy purposes(but it is not a big enough deal to me to change it back to BA)

My real issue is the pitching for H2H, I just don't think the traditional rotisserie categories work for H2H, there is too much of an advantage for the team who starts the most starters... Any strategy of starting players should not give an overwhelming advantage in more than one category... And saves is a terrible category in H2H because opportunities are to unpredictable...

That's why I think the best pitching categories would be what I proposed...

 

[TKOSpikes]

I hate to echo myself, but you keep bringing it up. Having more starts than the your opponent is a long time strategy in H2H. Doing it, you have two disadvantages (ERA, WHIP) and two advantages (W, K). Your argument holds no water there.

As for the hitters, if you want to punt SB, go ahead, but it doesn't make you strong elsewhere... it just makes you weak at SB. So you don't draft, say, Ben Revere in the 16th round, you go for, Chris Carter. ... be my guest. Any higher on the SB board are players you're drafting anyway, for Runs, and in some cases AVG/OBP whatever it may be. So again, the added cats don't make SB's different. Like I suggested with the negative cats like K's (another be my guest on Carter/Dunn). And adding SLG gives a guy like Plouffe (this year) a bigger bump, since his 2-4 with two doubles is better than the other's 2-4 with two singles.... assuming they both result in no runs/RBI.

And finally, I don't understand the K/9 cat. So that one has to really be explained to me.

 

[TKOSpikes]

and again... Save opportunities are not all that unpredictable, if you are mixing and matching. Like I said before.. one guy pitches 3 days in a row, or four out of six... sit him, he's likely shut down for the next series... but if you just own who you own, well, opportunities come when they come. Too bad if you have a team that doesn't get many save ops... draft better closers then.

 

[TKOSpikes]

I've never looked (and Wil of White or Joe of Average) are not baseball guys, so there will be no chart... but I'm sure every closer averages one appearance a week.

I think a big difference would be playing two opponents per week. That way, you don't get the bad beat, so to speak... at least not close to as much.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I hate to echo myself, but you keep bringing it up. Having more starts than the your opponent is a long time strategy in H2H. Doing it, you have two disadvantages (ERA, WHIP) and two advantages (W, K). Your argument holds no water there.

As for the hitters, if you want to punt SB, go ahead, but it doesn't make you strong elsewhere... it just makes you weak at SB. So you don't draft, say, Ben Revere in the 16th round, you go for, Chris Carter. ... be my guest. Any higher on the SB board are players you're drafting anyway, for Runs, and in some cases AVG/OBP whatever it may be. So again, the added cats don't make SB's different. Like I suggested with the negative cats like K's (another be my guest on Carter/Dunn). And adding SLG gives a guy like Plouffe (this year) a bigger bump, since his 2-4 with two doubles is better than the other's 2-4 with two singles.... assuming they both result in no runs/RBI.

And finally, I don't understand the K/9 cat. So that one has to really be explained to me.

THis might just be my opinion and apparently since yours and Treffs responses it I really may be alone... But I don't think one Strategic Roster move should give an overwhelming advantage in more than one category... By going with the most starters you almost always win Ks and Wins(yes there are exceptions)...

By using K/9 it gives more emphasis on the relief pitchers, where combining Wins and saves puts less emphasis on Closers... Using my Pitching format (W+S,ERA,WHIP,QS,K/9) it does not give any singular strategy an overwhelming advantage... a team that punts saves can still win 5 categories, a team that starts all or mostly relief pitchers can still easily win 4 categories(and is actually given a slight advantage in the categories)... By doing my proposal the question will be Who had the best pitching and not who could steal categories(again not saying my proposal is the best)...

I am not claiming that I have solved the problem(that apparently I might be the only one seeing-which may be saying there is no problem) but I think if you actually think about what I am saying you will see that there is a problem...

 

[TREFF]

Alright I'll weigh in.

First, I'll just way I'm completely dismissing any and everything that was mentioned to bring this point up, as IMHO, every idea was, to put it nicely, not good.

Now, my feelings in the entire format in general are exactly the same as they were 2 years ago when we started. I prefer a format that is not necessarily based on the best way to Guage a player, but rather the best way to create a fair playing field for us. From a 20+ year vet, to the person who just picked it up and stumbled across us in his/her search for help. I prefer a system that everyone completely understands, the way the stats are figured doesn't need to be explained, and that can't be manipulated by those if us who understands how to work the rules to our advantage. The simpler the better, and nothing that anyone can bring up will change my opion on that. This is a hobby that's supposed to be fun, and the more people that can fit in the better, expecially given the turnover that is likely to come. The more specialized, or complex the scoring format gets, the more people we exclude, or at least discourage.

Now having said that. ..I wouldn't vote for a 7x7, or 10x10, I prefer the basic 5x5, but have no major issues against it.
Wins vs QS.. I'm firmly on the W's side, but again, it's not a major thing.
Saves vs Saves+holds. . Here is the only strong opinion I have on these rules, outside of trying to keep things as simple as possible. Due to position scarcity, and that scarcity basically forcing a couple teams to punt saves, I'm all for Saves+holds, even though it goes somewhat against the simplicity rule I have. But it does go with fairness, no one will feel the need to punt save because they had a bad Draft, or injury issues and no luck on waivers.

There's my two cents.. Please don't bother attempting to change my mind, your wasting your keystrokes no matter how much logic is behind your arguement.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Alright I'll weigh in.

First, I'll just way I'm completely dismissing any and everything that was mentioned to bring this point up, as IMHO, every idea was, to put it nicely, not good.

Now, my feelings in the entire format in general are exactly the same as they were 2 years ago when we started. I prefer a format that is not necessarily based on the best way to Guage a player, but rather the best way to create a fair playing field for us. From a 20+ year vet, to the person who just picked it up and stumbled across us in his/her search for help. I prefer a system that everyone completely understands, the way the stats are figured doesn't need to be explained, and that can't be manipulated by those if us who understands how to work the rules to our advantage. The simpler the better, and nothing that anyone can bring up will change my opion on that. This is a hobby that's supposed to be fun, and the more people that can fit in the better, expecially given the turnover that is likely to come. The more specialized, or complex the scoring format gets, the more people we exclude, or at least discourage.

Now having said that. ..I wouldn't vote for a 7x7, or 10x10, I prefer the basic 5x5, but have no major issues against it.
Wins vs QS.. I'm firmly on the W's side, but again, it's not a major thing.
Saves vs Saves+holds. . Here is the only strong opinion I have on these rules, outside of trying to keep things as simple as possible. Due to position scarcity, and that scarcity basically forcing a couple teams to punt saves, I'm all for Saves+holds, even though it goes somewhat against the simplicity rule I have. But it does go with fairness, no one will feel the need to punt save because they had a bad Draft, or injury issues and no luck on waivers.

There's my two cents.. Please don't bother attempting to change my mind, your wasting your keystrokes no matter how much logic is behind your arguement.

Treff, you seem a little angry today... I am not trying to convince anyone anything... All I said, is I see a problem, and here is my proposal to fix it... If you don't think it is a problem then so be it.... It may just be me...

 

[TREFF]

Treff, you seem a little angry today... I am not trying to convince anyone anything... All I said, is I see a problem, and here is my proposal to fix it... If you don't think it is a problem then so be it.... It may just be me...

No not angry, more like bemused annoyance at attempts to over complicating the simple things in life.

 

[TKOSpikes]

I don't understand the complication in knowing who strikes out and who hits a lot of doubles, but I do understand how it separates Ichiro from Pollock (for lack of a better comparison).

 

[TKOSpikes]

By using K/9 it gives more emphasis on the relief pitchers, where combining Wins and saves puts less emphasis on Closers... Using my Pitching format (W+S,ERA,WHIP,QS,K/9) it does not give any singular strategy an overwhelming advantage... a team that punts saves can still win 5 categories, a team that starts all or mostly relief pitchers can still easily win 4 categories(and is actually given a slight advantage in the categories)... By doing my proposal the question will be Who had the best pitching and not who could steal categories(again not saying my proposal is the best)...

First, category FBB is all about winning (or stealing) categories. It's impossible for every team to have the same slash of hitters. A team using all RP do not have advantages in ERA and WHIP, one bad outing and you could be toast...two bad outings and you have no shot! Again, you're assuming things that are not true. Any way you slice it, categories will be manipulated by how the owner drafts his team. You're facing a team with Dee Gordon, Billy Hamilton and Jose Altuve on it. You're probably gonna bench your speedy OF in favor of a power guy, if you have the space.

And two weeks ago (maybe three), tlance beat me in K's with 3 or 4 less starts! So everything isn't written in stone, just because it's set up that way.... but again, that's what category FBB is... that's why I'm a points guy.

I'd like to get more points of views though...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

First, category FBB is all about winning (or stealing) categories. It's impossible for every team to have the same slash of hitters. A team using all RP do not have advantages in ERA and WHIP, one bad outing and you could be toast...two bad outings and you have no shot! Again, you're assuming things that are not true. Any way you slice it, categories will be manipulated by how the owner drafts his team. You're facing a team with Dee Gordon, Billy Hamilton and Jose Altuve on it. You're probably gonna bench your speedy OF in favor of a power guy, if you have the space.

And two weeks ago (maybe three), tlance beat me in K's with 3 or 4 less starts! So everything isn't written in stone, just because it's set up that way.... but again, that's what category FBB is... that's why I'm a points guy.

I'd like to get more points of views though...

i think you misunderstood what i meant by steal a category... I define it as setting your lineup and winning a category solely because of the way you structured your lineup and not about how a player did... for example when you win strikeouts solely because you had more pitchers pitching... its one thing to structure your lineup to give you a significant advantage in one category, but it should not give you a significant advantage in multiple categories...

I have no problem with offensive stats in H2H categories, because there is more even... Everyone has the same chance to have the same amount of PA, and the speed team has just as much of a chance to win as the Power team, or the ballanced offense team...

I really on have a problem with the pitching stats in H2H Cats(I dont have the same problem in Rotisserie).

and tref, just because it is simple does not mean it is best... I do agree simplicity is key, but i dont think my proposal is too complicated...

 

[TKOSpikes]

Take three. Having more starts doesn't automatically equal more k's... or more wins. Ask tlance. And if i do give you those two as "advantages", for the same reason you have to give me era and whip as disadvantages. So your multiple cat advantage is not... it's 2-2.

I do kind of get your reasoning for w+s though (crazy, I know)...

K/9 though, I don't like how it bumps the RP...that to me sounds like something to easily manipulate.... and you need a innings minimum.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Take three. Having more starts doesn't automatically equal more k's... or more wins. Ask tlance. And if i do give you those two as "advantages", for the same reason you have to give me era and whip as disadvantages. So your multiple cat advantage is not... it's 2-2.

I do kind of get your reasoning for w+s though (crazy, I know)...

K/9 though, I don't like how it bumps the RP...that to me sounds like something to easily manipulate.... and you need a innings minimum.

bumping RP is the whole reason i like the k/9 especially after hurting the RP by using W+S... I know change is scary, and whenever something is different, it doesn't get a fair shot- so i am not expecting anything to change from how it is now...

And i am not trying to stop the strategy of starting multiple starters, i just dont want to give it the extreme advantage of 2 categories...


But TKO, thanks for debating with me here... I think its worth a serious debate, but its good that someone at least allowed me to get most of my thoughts out... whether i am correct or wrong on this issue is irrelevant, just wanted to debate what was on my mind...

 

[tlance]

thanks TKO for starting this thread...

First off you guys convinced me to change the IP category to QS instead... so now my pitching would be ERA,WHIP, K/9, QS, W + S

I hate your suggestion(sorry to use the word hate- but it is true)...
the problem with adding too many categories is that there is less of a hurt to punt a category... and in your situation if you punt Saves and SBs you can easily be strong in 12 of the 14 categories...

I really don't think going anything past 5X5 is worth it, just because I have never seen a 6th category that I like... Maybe in offense there would be one... the best 6X6 offense I have seen is (BA,BB,SB,HR,RBI,Runs)...

and to be honest I like BA more than OBP for fantasy purposes(but it is not a big enough deal to me to change it back to BA)

My real issue is the pitching for H2H, I just don't think the traditional rotisserie categories work for H2H, there is too much of an advantage for the team who starts the most starters... Any strategy of starting players should not give an overwhelming advantage in more than one category... And saves is a terrible category in H2H because opportunities are to unpredictable...

That's why I think the best pitching categories would be what I proposed...

I completely disagree with this point. The team with more innings often has a disadvantage in ERA and WHIP. Less is often more if you have relievers who help ratios instead of mediocre 2 starters who hurt them.

 

[tlance]

bumping RP is the whole reason i like the k/9 especially after hurting the RP by using W+S... I know change is scary, and whenever something is different, it doesn't get a fair shot- so i am not expecting anything to change from how it is now...

And i am not trying to stop the strategy of starting multiple starters, i just dont want to give it the extreme advantage of 2 categories...


But TKO, thanks for debating with me here... I think its worth a serious debate, but its good that someone at least allowed me to get most of my thoughts out... whether i am correct or wrong on this issue is irrelevant, just wanted to debate what was on my mind...

Here is the problem though.

With this suggestion and no minimum, why would you ever draft a starter? I sure wouldn't. Relievers always have better ratios relative to starters because they can put it all out there with their best stuff every time out. An all reliever strategy would give a huge advantage in ERA, WHIP, W + S and K/9.

 

[Chef99]

No not angry, more like bemused annoyance at attempts to over complicating the simple things in life.

I have just started reading this thread, was thinking "Keep it Simple, Stupid" (nothing personal directed toward anyone, just a saying), and read this post.

It's nice to start the day with a good ol' belly laugh.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Here is the problem though.

With this suggestion and no minimum, why would you ever draft a starter? I sure wouldn't. Relievers always have better ratios relative to starters because they can put it all out there with their best stuff every time out. An all reliever strategy would give a huge advantage in ERA, WHIP, W + S and K/9.

Again, I am not saying my proposal is the best. I agree that rp have an advantage. Maybe a minimum innings would be best.

Also thinking of changing k/9 to k/BB. Just worried that if it is changed then more teams will punt the closer position.

Again I am not trying to take away the strategy of starting 2 start pitchers. I am just trying to lessen their advantage.

 

[Microwahevo]

I figured I might as well chime I here. I've been playing fant BB for about 5 years now and have loved every minute of it. I have always been a points league guy, as this was my first roto league. Having atleast some knowledge of fantasy BB in my back pocket has helped, but adjusting to roto took a lil time. And I like the cats we have right now. Here's a post from treff that pretty much sums up my feelings:

Now, my feelings in the entire format in general are exactly the same as they were 2 years ago when we started. I prefer a format that is not necessarily based on the best way to Guage a player, but rather the best way to create a fair playing field for us. From a 20+ year vet, to the person who just picked it up and stumbled across us in his/her search for help. I prefer a system that everyone completely understands, the way the stats are figured doesn't need to be explained, and that can't be manipulated by those if us who understands how to work the rules to our advantage. The simpler the better, and nothing that anyone can bring up will change my opion on that. This is a hobby that's supposed to be fun, and the more people that can fit in the better, expecially given the turnover that is likely to come. The more specialized, or complex the scoring format gets, the more people we exclude, or at least discourage

Having this format has enabled a relative "noob" to compete and play well. Granted, u still need to have a grasp on fantasy BB and continue to be active, but I think having a gagillion cats would've made me lose interest. And it still makes the league competitive as ever.

 

[Microwahevo]

Saves vs Saves+holds. . Here is the only strong opinion I have on these rules, outside of trying to keep things as simple as possible. Due to position scarcity, and that scarcity basically forcing a couple teams to punt saves, I'm all for Saves+holds, even though it goes somewhat against the simplicity rule I have. But it does go with fairness, no one will feel the need to punt save because they had a bad Draft, or injury issues and no luck on waivers.

I think saves is a fine category to have. Yes, not every team may get the amount of closers they want, or the quality. But there are 30 teams in MLB and in the format we have, that's more than enough for two closers for each team, barring some hording a bunch. However, even if u don't draft quality closers, or dismiss them altogether during the draft, u have every opportunity to grab them during the season. How many times have u seen a closer lose his job? Often! Look no further than Milwaukee this year.

I picked up KRod the minute I heard he had won the job. And he has been a huge part of my saves success this year. And yes, I understand not every closer will have success like that. But it CAN happen, and every team has a shot at picking up potential new closers throughout the season. Mejia is another guy that comes to mind. I picked him up in a points league and he's done ok for me.

I guess my point on this is that u can be successful at categories if u do ur research, stay active on news a updates, and basically just stay active with ur team. If u choose to punt saves or any other category, then that's on u, not the system. Just my $.02