Give me the BEST 16 teams in the country

[TangoBlue]

I dont want your rankings based off of resume, I dont care about record, I want the people who LOVE CBB and watch it religiously to tell me who they think are the 16 teams they think are the best in the country right now ie: Who is your Sweet 16 through 1 week of January?? Ill start. In no order

Arizona
Wiscosnin
Iowa State
Syracuse
Michigan State
Ohio State
OK State
San Diego State
Florida
Colorado
Iowa
Nova
Kansas
Oregon
Wichita State
Louisville

You honestly don't think UK should be in that group...or you just don't like UK? Also you think Kansas is better than UK.?

I'll give you a wavering ~~~~ "benefit of doubt" ~~~~ on everybody in your list over UK........except Kansas and Louisville!

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

You honestly don't think UK should be in that group...or you just don't like UK? Also you think Kansas is better than UK.?

I'll give you a wavering ~~~~ "benefit of doubt" ~~~~ on everybody in your list over UK........ except Kansas and Louisville!

In his defense, he made his list before Louisville dropped the game at home last night.

As far as Kansas? It's an "interesting" pick, but considering they've played an absolutely brutal schedule (ranked #1, #2, #4 in RPI, KP and Sag respectively) and only have one more loss than UK I don't think it's that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I at least think it's defensible.

 

[rmilia1]

You honestly don't think UK should be in that group...or you just don't like UK? Also you think Kansas is better than UK.?

I'll give you a wavering ~~~~ "benefit of doubt" ~~~~ on everybody in your list over UK........except Kansas and Louisville!

I actually do think kansas is better than uk. My last spot came down to louisville, cincy, baylor, duke and uk. Right now id put uk 4th out of 5 in that last group but the difference between all of them is slim and uk certainly has great upside

 

[SteelersPride]

pitt rolls again......

 

[CamBradyForPresident]

stick a fork in isu. kane is out for a while now. no more wins for isu this season and no ncaa tourney for the cyclones.

 

[Great Dayne]

Lol you and your Badger butt buddy started the name calling and getting defensive because an OBJECTIVE fan said Arizona with their ROAD wins is more impressive. As I said, you lose. You are about as worthless as they come.

You going to answer my question yet????????

Name calling? Simply stating that because it's a road win doesn't make it a superior win buddy. You have to look at that teams record, level of play at that time, margin of victory, etc.

I willingly admitted SD st. win is one of the best in the country and it is a better win than beating Iowa @ home. However I refuted the belief that because we only beat Iowa by home is a legit reason why AZ should be ranked in front of us.

Objective analysis:

We both agree UW's entire resume is more impressive with more wins in the top 25 at 4-0 (most in the country), top 50 and 51-100 and a higher SOS, Opp D and O.

We both agree that AZ has a superior overall best record with the win @ SD. St.

We differ in the fact that you believe AZ is more deserving of the top spot because they beat Duke and Mich on the Road. One of the determining factors for the selection committee is RPI so I'll use that to start. .

Second Best win:
Badgers second best @ Virginia (11-4, RPI 23 SOS .63) Dominated from start to finish with 10 pt win and giving up 38 points for the game
second best win for AZ is @ Duke (12-4, 30 SOS .57) 6 point win although Duke was leading for majority of the second half and split during the first.


Third Best Win:
UW vs Illinois (14th RPI 13-3, 14 RPI, SOS .59) 25 point blowout by halftime and final (bench was in at the 8 minute mark).
AZ @ Michigan (48th RPI, 11-4, SOS .58) Won by 2 vs a struggling 4 loss Michigan team who has no PG. Michigan was leading for the entire game but up until the 25 seconds to go after AZ makes 7 straight FT's to win by 2.

4th Best Win:
UW vs St. Louis at neutral site ( RPI 41rst, SOS .51, 13-2) Badgers win by 6 slowly built up the lead to 13 points with 11 minutes to go and sustained it until the 4 minute mark. Badgers lost the FT battle in the end to make the game look closer.
AZ @ UCLA ( RPI 46th, SOS .55, 12-3) Won by 4, 1st half was evenly matched until AZ hit a 3 just before the half to go up by 4. Built up a 10 point lead in early in the half but lost the lead with a minute to go with careless TO's.

5th Best Win:
Badgers vs Florida (RPI 12th, 12-2, SOS .59) Down early by 12 at the 11 minute mark then regained the lead at the 3 minute mark in the first half and never relinquished the lead. They were missing a C (6 ppg), F (10 ppg) and PG (4 ast and 12 ppg).

AZ vs Drexel at neutral site ( RPI 80, 8-6. SOS .54) AZ with a 4 point win after being down by 19 in first half. Regain the lead at the 7 minute mark in the second half.

After this it's all UW down the list. Now with the With the higher overall BPI and RPI and better conference it's logical to believe UW will be #1 in the end even with an identical record and no L's to unraknked opponents by either team.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Stop cherry picking stats. They don't work that way. You point to RPI when it helps your case, ignoring it otherwise. you point to KenPom's SoS numbers, ignoring the fact that it has Zona ranked ahead of Wisky.

You're doing it wrong. Fucking quit it.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

I should just let trolly's comment speak for me but I'll also had...

Another big thing the selection committee looks at is road wins. Zona has passed that test with flying colors.

I havn't see a bracketologist bracket yet that has Wisconsin as the overall #1 yet. So again, you can stop with the troll non sense anytime.

Zona's resume checks out. A big article I read just the other day was how UK and ISU were in need of road wins. It's a big reason a undefeated ISU was still behind MSU on most brackets.

 

[Great Dayne]

Stop cherry picking stats. They don't work that way. You point to RPI when it helps your case, ignoring it otherwise. you point to KenPom's SoS numbers, ignoring the fact that it has Zona ranked ahead of Wisky.

You're doing it wrong. Fucking quit it.

What's the correct way to do this? Not a single person has displayed a single their entire method of ranking teams. All I see is well our best win is superior or these two games were on the road so that justifies them being ranked in front.

No matter what system anyone uses, even the officials on the selection committee one can proclaim that all of their stats are cherry picked as well. I attempt to keep my stats, combined with eye tests and other factors as close to what the selection committee utilizes.

It appears the main resources utilized (at least in terms of statistics) is RPI, Opponents record vs other teams, SOS, W-L record, game of location.

The factors that are not in RPI is taking into consideration or weighing the Home/away games and teams with players missing.However, BPI does take these factors into consideration and UW is ranked ahead of AZ in this as well.

Lastly, what none of the computer systems currently take into account is travel, emotional factors, fortunate breaks or biased officials, difficult stretches in terms of number of games played during a period of time. Wisconsin was averaging game almost every 3rd day for the first month.

The only difference is we do not really have access to the coaches, athletic directors, commissionaire as the section committee does.

DI principles and procedures of selection | NCAA.com

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

What's the correct way to do this?

The correct way is to avoid cherry picking your stats. As I explained several times above, you can not use KenPom SOS figures to claim that Wisconsin is better than Arizona without acknowledging that KenPom has Arizona ranked above Wisconsin.

Pomeroy uses the exact same criteria and methodology to evaluate every team. EVERY TEAM. You know what's included in EVERY TEAM? Wisconsin's competition is included in EVERY TEAM. Arizona's competition is included in EVERY TEAM. You know what that means? The exact same system that you're relying on to say that Wisconsin played a tougher schedule ALSO says that Arizona is a better team. If you don't believe that his system is accurate when it ranks Arizona above Wisconsin, then you can't rely on his numbers regarding SoS because they're the same damn numbers!. Where do you think the SoS numbers come from? He doesn't pull them out of the fucking air. They're based on the same evaluations that ranked Arizona ahead of Wisconsin. You simply can't use one and ignore the other.

If you don't think KenPom is a vaild measure then stop using his fucking SoS numbers.

I don't know how to spell it out any more simple than that.

RPI is a measure of resume. You can make an objective claim that Wisconsin has a better resume than Arizona right now, but that doesn't mean they are the better team.

If you want to talk about which team is better, since they haven't played each other, you have two choices... Either go with the eyeball test, which is purely subjective, and is probably not going to sway anyone (nor should it) or go with the computer rankings. Right now the BPI has Arizona and Wisconsin tied at #2. Pomeroy has Arizona #1. Sagarin has Arizona #1. Use whatever metrics you want, but at least have some fucking idea what the metrics are measuring. Seeing a numbered list of teams, doesn't mean one is better than the other. You have to have some idea what the ranking is and how it works. I point to Pomeroy and Sagarin because I have a decent familiarity with them. I don't point to an alphabetized list of schools because an alphabetized list of schools doesn't measure how good their basketball teams are. If you don't know what particular ranking actually is, it could be an alphabetized list of schools.. or a ranking of mascots. Or graduation rates.

Don't pick random numbers out of the blue.

 

[TangoBlue]

In his defense, he made his list before Louisville dropped the game at home last night.

As far as Kansas? It's an "interesting" pick, but considering they've played an absolutely brutal schedule (ranked #1, #2, #4 in RPI, KP and Sag respectively) and only have one more loss than UK I don't think it's that crazy. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I at least think it's defensible.

That's a very fair analysis Trolly and I can live with it...maybe not agree with it but it's definitely defensible.

Trolly on a side note let me ask you a question please....... and I would love to get your opinion. Do you think Bill Self readies his one and dones for the college and pro games better than Calipari....or vice versa? And please tell me why.

Anyone else is welcome to give an opinion also.

 

[TangoBlue]

I actually do think kansas is better than uk. My last spot came down to louisville, cincy, baylor, duke and uk. Right now id put uk 4th out of 5 in that last group but the difference between all of them is slim and uk certainly has great upside

Appreciate the upside remark for UK rmilia. I think UK probably has {at least} one of the best upsides of any team out there.......because UK is so young and has so much to learn...but the players have a lot of talent which imo makes for more of an upside.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

That's a very fair analysis Trolly and I can live with it...maybe not agree with it but it's definitely defensible.

Trolly on a side note let me ask you a question please....... and I would love to get your opinion. Do you think Bill Self readies his one and dones for the college and pro games better than Calipari....or vice versa? And please tell me why.

Anyone else is welcome to give an opinion also.

Well, no disrespect intended, but who cares really? That seems like a silly thing to concern yourself with.

That being said, I think it depends on what you mean by "readies" a player. Are you talking about making them a better player headed into the the league? Elevating their draft stock (which isn't always related to how good they are entering the league) or something else?

As far as their draft stock, I don't think it matters much who is coaching them. I think Cal has a better track record for guys maintaining their stock compared to Self (this year might be an exception) but when you look at guys that kinda flopped at Kansas over the last few years (Xavier Henry and Josh Selby) I think it had less to do with the coach and more to do with the players. Those guys just seemed like they had shitty attitudes and I don't know that it would have changed under Cal.

The best thing I think Cal does is tailor his coaching to fit his players instead of trying to shoehorn them into some system. He coaches to their strengths with makes them look better to NBA scouts, but at the same time, I'm not sure if that's better for actual development than trying to improve their weaknesses.

To be honest, I can talk about their draft stock but as far as developing NBA skilss I'm not the one you want to talk to. I really don't know enough about the NBA game aside from the typical cliches (they don't play defense and you can take 17 steps as long as you finish at the rim eventually) to form any sort of informed opinion.I just know you can't go by draft order, as the draft has so much to do with potential not proven skill.

 

[TangoBlue]

Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[dcZONAfan]

Name calling? Simply stating that because it's a road win doesn't make it a superior win buddy. You have to look at that teams record, level of play at that time, margin of victory, etc.

I willingly admitted SD st. win is one of the best in the country and it is a better win than beating Iowa @ home. However I refuted the belief that because we only beat Iowa by home is a legit reason why AZ should be ranked in front of us.

Objective analysis:

We both agree UW's entire resume is more impressive with more wins in the top 25 at 4-0 (most in the country), top 50 and 51-100 and a higher SOS, Opp D and O.

We both agree that AZ has a superior overall best record with the win @ SD. St.

We differ in the fact that you believe AZ is more deserving of the top spot because they beat Duke and Mich on the Road. One of the determining factors for the selection committee is RPI so I'll use that to start. .

Second Best win:
Badgers second best @ Virginia (11-4, RPI 23 SOS .63) Dominated from start to finish with 10 pt win and giving up 38 points for the game
second best win for AZ is @ Duke (12-4, 30 SOS .57) 6 point win although Duke was leading for majority of the second half and split during the first.


Third Best Win:
UW vs Illinois (14th RPI 13-3, 14 RPI, SOS .59) 25 point blowout by halftime and final (bench was in at the 8 minute mark).
AZ @ Michigan (48th RPI, 11-4, SOS .58) Won by 2 vs a struggling 4 loss Michigan team who has no PG. Michigan was leading for the entire game but up until the 25 seconds to go after AZ makes 7 straight FT's to win by 2.

4th Best Win:
UW vs St. Louis at neutral site ( RPI 41rst, SOS .51, 13-2) Badgers win by 6 slowly built up the lead to 13 points with 11 minutes to go and sustained it until the 4 minute mark. Badgers lost the FT battle in the end to make the game look closer.
AZ @ UCLA ( RPI 46th, SOS .55, 12-3) Won by 4, 1st half was evenly matched until AZ hit a 3 just before the half to go up by 4. Built up a 10 point lead in early in the half but lost the lead with a minute to go with careless TO's.

5th Best Win:
Badgers vs Florida (RPI 12th, 12-2, SOS .59) Down early by 12 at the 11 minute mark then regained the lead at the 3 minute mark in the first half and never relinquished the lead. They were missing a C (6 ppg), F (10 ppg) and PG (4 ast and 12 ppg).

AZ vs Drexel at neutral site ( RPI 80, 8-6. SOS .54) AZ with a 4 point win after being down by 19 in first half. Regain the lead at the 7 minute mark in the second half.

After this it's all UW down the list. Now with the With the higher overall BPI and RPI and better conference it's logical to believe UW will be #1 in the end even with an identical record and no L's to unraknked opponents by either team.

you can't feel too good about saying that ILL is your third best win now, can you? Or that beating them at home is better than beating michigan on the road OOC

oh but keep quoting RPI I am sure that will make you feel better about the Illini

 

[rmilia1]

Ok so A. Wisconsin has a better resume than Zona overall but who cares? Both are 1 seeds right now. B) Nebraska is not evrn close to the worst team in the b10. C) Illinois (quite likely ) isnt any damn good. The illini have one ok win, a bad loss to gt, got dominated by the only elite team theyve played. Illini MAY finish behind nebraska in the b10. Anyway, im kicking UL out of my top 16 and replacing them with cincinnati for the moment

Well I think we can vate the phrase "quite likely" from my post here.... LOL

 

[dcZONAfan]

Well I think we can vate the phrase "quite likely" from my post here.... LOL

Truth.

Hey rmilia congrats on yesterday's win. Absolutely huge confidence builder for a talented team that simply NEEDED to see that they can hang with the big boys (whether or not we believe OSU is truly a big boy or not is irrelevant)

 

[rmilia1]

Truth.

Hey rmilia congrats on yesterday's win. Absolutely huge confidence builder for a talented team that simply NEEDED to see that they can hang with the big boys (whether or not we believe OSU is truly a big boy or not is irrelevant)

Yeah man it was a good win. I honestly dont think OSU is a TOP tier team but even if they are 15-20 type team it is still a good win. There are only 2 teams in the B10 I think compete with Iowa when it comes to overall talent and depth and that is MSU and Wisky so it would be nice to get a win in EL this year but even if we dont all we really need to do is take care of home court and we should be at worst 13-5/14-4ish in the league which should be enough for a top 3 type seed.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Yeah man it was a good win. I honestly dont think OSU is a TOP tier team but even if they are 15-20 type team it is still a good win. There are only 2 teams in the B10 I think compete with Iowa when it comes to overall talent and depth and that is MSU and Wisky so it would be nice to get a win in EL this year but even if we dont all we really need to do is take care of home court and we should be at worst 13-5/14-4ish in the league which should be enough for a top 3 type seed.

If you are 14-4

You will be a top 3 seed.

Don't have to worry about should.

 

[Great Dayne]

Somebody notify me when Cuse actually wins a game in vs a decent opponent's house. They're looking to be in the same situation OSU was in until they started facing real competition.