Game of Thrones

[NCChiFan]

Make Westeros Great Again!
Close the borders.
Build another wall.....

Too late... Millions have poured over the wall...

 

[OutlawImmortal]

What makes GOT such a great show:
The political intrigue of humans essentially being both assholes and heores at the same time
Main Characters not being protected by Plot Armor. Guys like Ned Stark could be killed in the first season.

What made GOT dance a little close to every other cheesy run of the mill Sword/Sorcery stuff:
Heroic Epic characters fighting 100% evil fantasy D&D style monsters
Plot Armor making sure that the destiny of every little Frodo Baggins makes it to the ending.

Now, the show is forced to combine the two.
And they have to do it without the years of planning and awesome writing of Martin. They are winging it.
And frankly, it was not very good. We love the show. We love the characters. We watched.

But, if season 7 was season 1. The show would never have become a hit.

I think it's safe to say that the TV show is it's own entity for the most part.

 

[Payton]

Question I thought of that is irrelevant, but still intriguing to me.

In season1 when Ned leaves for King's Landing and parts ways with Jon Snow he tells John that he would tell him all about his mother when he returned....

...Wonder if he was planning on telling him the real truth, or a doctored up version that still fit the "bastard" narrative?

 

[calsnowskier]

Question I thought of that is irrelevant, but still intriguing to me.

In season1 when Ned leaves for King's Landing and parts ways with Jon Snow he tells John that he would tell him all about his mother when he returned....

...Wonder if he was planning on telling him the real truth, or a doctored up version that still fit the "bastard" narrative?

Jon (Aegon) was coming of age. It was time for him to know.

I fully trust that Ned intended to tell him the truth.

 

[Orlando Eagles]

Question I thought of that is irrelevant, but still intriguing to me.

In season1 when Ned leaves for King's Landing and parts ways with Jon Snow he tells John that he would tell him all about his mother when he returned....

...Wonder if he was planning on telling him the real truth, or a doctored up version that still fit the "bastard" narrative?

I imagine old Ned was not certain at that point and that decision would be made based upon what transpired in KL. Most likely I imagine it would be doctored up. He simply could not let that secret come out in that world. Baratheon and Lannister alike would be gunning for the kid to keep any Targaryan with rightful claim silenced.

Don't forget that Roberts Rebellion was not a very solid process of power transition in law.

 

[Orlando Eagles]

Jon (Aegon) was coming of age. It was time for him to know.

I fully trust that Ned intended to tell him the truth.

Interestingly I just replied to the counter. But this made me think. Did Ned talk him into (or know he was going to) take the black? If he was pushing for it I'm sure old Ned planned to appeal to his good friend the king with the truth (somehow, no matter how painful for Robert....possibly a doctored up version for him?) and make it clear that JS was no threat.

Because JS had taken an oath.....sigh....good old Ned.
That kid would have been did within short order no matter (and then maybe risen anyway?)

 

[calsnowskier]

I imagine old Ned was not certain at that point and that decision would be made based upon what transpired in KL. Most likely I imagine it would be doctored up. He simply could not let that secret come out in that world. Baratheon and Lannister alike would be gunning for the kid to keep any Targaryan with rightful claim silenced.

Don't forget that Roberts Rebellion was not a very solid process of power transition in law.

But what is law in the GoT world?

Might and tradition.

Aegon would have had the tradition, but Robert had already been king for what, 16 years? How far back does tradition go? And Robert had the might, no question.

 

[Godstree]

Jon (Aegon) was coming of age. It was time for him to know.

I fully trust that Ned intended to tell him the truth.

I just don't get shy Ned never told his wife. They were two of the same and Jon would have had the same life only Cat would have been a bit nicer to him.

I too think Ned woulda told him the truth at some point. He was going to be married to the wall by that time and no claim to the throne. It also makes the scenes where he was not about to send assassins to kill Dany a little stronger when you go back and look at them.

 

[Orlando Eagles]

But what is law in the GoT world?

Might and tradition.

Aegon would have had the tradition, but Robert had already been king for what, 16 years? How far back does tradition go? And Robert had the might, no question.

Fair...then why was Robert so obsessed with Vicerys and "this girl in the east who will soon start spreading her legs"? And why was Cersei having all of Roberts bastards found and eliminated?

 

[calsnowskier]

Fair...then why was Robert so obsessed with Vicerys and "this girl in the east who will soon start spreading her legs"? And why was Cersei having all of Roberts bastards found and eliminated?

Roberts might and tradition is stronger if there isn't an opposing might and tradition.

In a world like that, paranoia reigns supreme. If there isn't any debate about the legitimacy of your tradition, than your tradition is not all-supreme.

 

[Cave_Johnson]

I'm still trying to understand why Rhaegar named his second son the same thing as his first son. The whole situation with him being able to get his marriage that easily annulled already is pretty goofy, but his first son wasn't even dead when he they decided Jon was going to be named Aegon. I guess maybe it's a nod to the Young Griff plot in the books, but that didn't seem necessary since they've completely ignored that plot to date. Literally any other Targ name makes more sense than Aegon.

 

[wildturkey]

I'm still trying to understand why Rhaegar named his second son the same thing as his first son. The whole situation with him being able to get his marriage that easily annulled already is pretty goofy, but his first son wasn't even dead when he they decided Jon was going to be named Aegon. I guess maybe it's a nod to the Young Griff plot in the books, but that didn't seem necessary since they've completely ignored that plot to date. Literally any other Targ name makes more sense than Aegon.

It's not unheard of. George Foreman named his 4 sons George. Maybe Rhaegar just really likes that name

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm still trying to understand why Rhaegar named his second son the same thing as his first son. The whole situation with him being able to get his marriage that easily annulled already is pretty goofy, but his first son wasn't even dead when he they decided Jon was going to be named Aegon. I guess maybe it's a nod to the Young Griff plot in the books, but that didn't seem necessary since they've completely ignored that plot to date. Literally any other Targ name makes more sense than Aegon.

Maybe it was Lyanna's decision???

 

[calsnowskier]

Maybe it was Lyanna's decision???

Good point.

How exactly did the timing work out? Was Rhaegar already dead when Jon/Aegon was born? I know he wasn't there when He was handed to Ned.

 

[Cave_Johnson]

I believe Ned went to the Tower of Joy after Robert killed Rhaegar and the Mountain killed Aegon and Rhaenys (allegedly).

I'm not sure that Lyanna naming him Aegon makes any sense either. She knew Robert hated Targs and would kill Jon if he knew about him. So naming him Aegon would have been a pretty stupid-ass idea on two accounts.

1) Easy to identify him
2) Same name as the rightful heir before the annulment

If it were Lyanna's choice it made more sense to go with something non-Targ which is why I assumed Rhaegar is choosing the name. But that still leaves open the fact that it's a stupid-ass decision to name him Aegon.

This is just in the books, but I believe Rhaegar is big into the whole dragon having three heads thing, meaning three children. So the three heads of the dragon are Aegon, Rhaenys, and .....Aegon again? Idk man. I think they just fucked up on the show.

 

[Sparhawk]

I believe Ned went to the Tower of Joy after Robert killed Rhaegar and the Mountain killed Aegon and Rhaenys (allegedly).

I'm not sure that Lyanna naming him Aegon makes any sense either. She knew Robert hated Targs and would kill Jon if he knew about him. So naming him Aegon would have been a pretty stupid-ass idea on two accounts.

1) Easy to identify him
2) Same name as the rightful heir before the annulment

If it were Lyanna's choice it made more sense to go with something non-Targ which is why I assumed Rhaegar is choosing the name. But that still leaves open the fact that it's a stupid-ass decision to name him Aegon.

This is just in the books, but I believe Rhaegar is big into the whole dragon having three heads thing, meaning three children. So the three heads of the dragon are Aegon, Rhaenys, and .....Aegon again? Idk man. I think they just fucked up on the show.

Not looking for an argument, but if Lyanna Stark sees her brother Ned enter her room, she has to assume the worst has happened to all the Targaryeans. If Ned survived the battle, she has to assume that Rhaegar is dead, no? Maybe Rhaegar told her what to name the child in the event that Ned found her first. Maybe Rhaegar told Ned where she was when he was struck down by Robert.

Furthermore, she knows that Ned will promise to keep the baby safe. She knew he wouldn't use his real name, but would protect him and unveil who he was when the time was right (prophecy trope). Maybe it was a sort of 'Last of the Targaryeans' thingee. Figuring that the other remaining Targaryeans were wiped out, the process starts anew with Aegon.....

 

[Cave_Johnson]

Not looking for an argument, but if Lyanna Stark sees her brother Ned enter her room, she has to assume the worst has happened to all the Targaryeans. If Ned survived the battle, she has to assume that Rhaegar is dead, no? Maybe Rhaegar told her what to name the child in the event that Ned found her first. Maybe Rhaegar told Ned where she was when he was struck down by Robert.

Furthermore, she knows that Ned will promise to keep the baby safe. She knew he wouldn't use his real name, but would protect him and unveil who he was when the time was right (prophecy trope). Maybe it was a sort of 'Last of the Targaryeans' thingee. Figuring that the other remaining Targaryeans were wiped out, the process starts anew with Aegon.....

From what I remember Ned and Rhaegar never talked after Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna. The next time those two were in close proximity with one another after the "abduction" was when Robert was bashing Rhaegar's face in with a warhammer at the Trident.

Other than that I don't see anything wrong with your line of reasoning. But I'm not so much worried about the how Lyanna knew Rhaegar was dead or who chose the name. I'm just questioning why the name was Aegon. That's weird right? I don't think Rhaegar was like "George Foreman has 5 sons with the same name, so it's cool if I do it too".

There's a reason for that specific name and it's either something that has yet to be revealed or it was just the show giving a nod to the books and forgetting Rhaegar had another son with the same name.

I suppose in the books Dany has a vision of Rhaegar talking to woman with a baby and saying something along the lines of "My son Aegon is the prince who was promised, but the dragon has three heads". He was clearly talking to Elia about his first son there though since he never saw Jon. But that just brings us back around to why do two heads of the dragon have the same name?

Anyway, the name probably doesn't matter too much. What's more questionable is how Rhaegar was able to get his marriage annulled after consummating that marriage at least twice with his then living wife. And even if that's somehow accepted I don't know why anybody would care about that line of succession since we've already had a bastard take over Dorne with no questions asked and have had a known murderer who doesn't fall in the line of succession as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

It's all...yeah....probably not worth worrying about at this point.

 

[juliansteed]

Did the show ever reveal the name of Rhaegar's children, or more importantly the name of the son he had with Elia? I don't think their names were ever mentioned. I remember a scene where Maester Aemon talks about them killing "the children" and of course Oberyn brings up how his sister's children were killed but don't think their names are ever mentioned. I wonder if Jon really being named Aegon is just a show thing and he'll have a different name in the books.

As for book Rhaegar I suspect he was actually hoping Jon would be a girl and he would have named her Visenya. Then his 3 children would have been Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, the names of the 3 Targaryens that first conquered Westeros.

 

[juliansteed]

What I also found a bit odd about that last episode was that Bran thought Jon's real last name was Sand. This seems strange for 2 reasons. For starters, everyone knew he wasn't born in the North all along, even when it was believed that Ned fathered him. Where one is born doesn't necessarily determine what bastard name they get and Bran seemed to be aware of this since he never questioned Jon's bastard name before. Also we found out that when he visited the Tower of Joy last season he actually heard Lyanna called him "Aegon Targaryen". The viewer doesn't hear the name until after this discussion but Bran appears to have heard it last season when he witnessed Jon's birth. I mean I suppose it's possible that he thought Lyanna was in a delusional state and forgot her son was a bastard, but then you'd think when Sam first mentioned the annulment/marriage that Bran would have clued in at that point and mentioned how Lyanna said his last name was Targaryen.

 

[chf]

I believe Ned went to the Tower of Joy after Robert killed Rhaegar and the Mountain killed Aegon and Rhaenys (allegedly).

I'm not sure that Lyanna naming him Aegon makes any sense either. She knew Robert hated Targs and would kill Jon if he knew about him. So naming him Aegon would have been a pretty stupid-ass idea on two accounts.

1) Easy to identify him
2) Same name as the rightful heir before the annulment

If it were Lyanna's choice it made more sense to go with something non-Targ which is why I assumed Rhaegar is choosing the name. But that still leaves open the fact that it's a stupid-ass decision to name him Aegon.

This is just in the books, but I believe Rhaegar is big into the whole dragon having three heads thing, meaning three children. So the three heads of the dragon are Aegon, Rhaenys, and .....Aegon again? Idk man.

Dude, you're trying waaaaay too hard. Full House leading actor hard here.

That whole bit with whispering the name to her brother, swearing him to secrecy, getting him to promise to look after the kid?

Who'd know?

I think they just fucked up on the show.

You don't say.