dave stieb vs Jack Morris

[broncosmitty]

Morris seems to have a myth about him. The postseason greatness, because people remember game 7 from 1991 and not how bad he was in most other postseason starts. My memories of him are how he seemed to be able to turn it on when a game got tight. He is beloved in Detroit. He had the most wins in the eighties, I know but there are people that still go bye that.

His 91 postseason, for the Twins, was probably the best post season of any pitcher up to that point. (Most wins and innings.). His 92 postseason(Which His teammate Streib did not participate in) did not live up to the previous season. Six homers did him in. But he still compiled a 7-4 record, 3.80 ERA and 5 CG's over 92+ innings in the postseason. Hardly a bad playoff career with three different championship teams.

 

[StanMarsh51]

His 91 postseason, for the Twins, was probably the best post season of any pitcher up to that point. (Most wins and innings.). His 92 postseason(Which His teammate Streib did not participate in) did not live up to the previous season. Six homers did him in. But he still compiled a 7-4 record, 3.80 ERA and 5 CG's over 92+ innings in the postseason. Hardly a bad playoff career with three different championship teams.

He can fight for 3rd place, because his 1991 postseason wasn't as good as Hershiser's 1988 nor Bruce Hurt's 1986 (both whom had more innings).

 

[broncosmitty]

My bad, was going off the Wins list.(innings were listed, ordered by wins) Did they both win 3?

 

[DragonfromTO]

That simply isn't true at all. The only high end season of Steibs career which his team was sub .500 was 1982. The only other seasons he played on a losing team were 81, 80 and 79. His first three seasons.

I should have been clearer, as I wasn't talking about their overall record but how they played behind him.

In 1981 the Jays scored 2.80 runs a game when Stieb pitched. The league average was 4.07.
In 1982, 3.95. League average was 4.48.
In 1983, 4.42. League average was 4.48.
In 1984, 4.19. League average was 4.42.

So Stieb was getting an average of half a run below the league average run support for those 4 years, while playing in a home ballpark with an average park factor of 106. "Dreadful" was probably too strong a word, but that's not the kind of thing that's going to help your win totals.

 

[broncosmitty]

Thanks for clearing up your intent Dragon. I was assuming you were implying standings.

 

[jalopy]

So Stieb was getting an average of half a run below the league average run support for those 4 years, while playing in a home ballpark with an average park factor of 106. "Dreadful" was probably too strong a word, but that's not the kind of thing that's going to help your win totals.

Not sure how a stadium affects win totals. Lack of run support definitely would, though. Speaking of stadiums, wasn't it Stieb that kept getting blown off balance at Exhibition Stadium from high winds and the game had to be postponed?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Thanks for clearing up your intent Dragon. I was assuming you were implying standings.

Yeah I wrote and sent that response too fast (also why it was only a single sentence) cause I had to do something, when I went back and read it I realized I should have expanded on the point. But I think that bad support was a big part of why Stieb went unnoticed (bad bullpen support too as I recall, although I don't know if there's an easier way to show this than going through the game logs, which I don't have the time for), I think back in the early 80s unless you were a big fan you largely noticed the guys who had high win totals and the praise and Cy Young support that usually came with them. If he gets just a little bit better support in one of those 16 or 17 win seasons and wins 19 or 20 instead he's high in the Cy Young balloting, and there's probably a decent chance he wins one depending on the year. And doing so certainly would have put him on more fans' radar. But he was hurt in the voting because wins ruled the day back then and probably also because the voters were kind of still figuring out what to do with closers. I think he was also probably hurt from an attention standpoint by the fact that the Jays were still a relatively new team during those seasons too. Obviously I was living up there then and not down here so I'm not sure what the national consciousness was but I strongly suspect that few people knew anyone on the Blue Jays (or Mariners) or gave a shit about them.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Not sure how a stadium affects win totals. Lack of run support definitely would, though. Speaking of stadiums, wasn't it Stieb that kept getting blown off balance at Exhibition Stadium from high winds and the game had to be postponed?

The stadium affects the run support positively and the run support in turn affects the win totals. I mentioned the park factors to make the added point that Stieb's run support was even worse than at first glance because his offenses got a significant boost from playing at Exhibition Stadium.

 

[dougplayer]

how many world series wins did the Jays have with out Morris??? how many did they have with Stieb???

 

[StanMarsh51]

how many world series wins did the Jays have with out Morris??? how many did they have with Stieb???

Yes, Morris going 0-2 with an 8.44 ERA while averaging 5.1 innings per start in the 1992 WS was surely a big factor in the Jays winning.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah I wrote and sent that response too fast (also why it was only a single sentence) cause I had to do something, when I went back and read it I realized I should have expanded on the point. But I think that bad support was a big part of why Stieb went unnoticed (bad bullpen support too as I recall, although I don't know if there's an easier way to show this than going through the game logs, which I don't have the time for), I think back in the early 80s unless you were a big fan you largely noticed the guys who had high win totals and the praise and Cy Young support that usually came with them. If he gets just a little bit better support in one of those 16 or 17 win seasons and wins 19 or 20 instead he's high in the Cy Young balloting, and there's probably a decent chance he wins one depending on the year. And doing so certainly would have put him on more fans' radar. But he was hurt in the voting because wins ruled the day back then and probably also because the voters were kind of still figuring out what to do with closers. I think he was also probably hurt from an attention standpoint by the fact that the Jays were still a relatively new team during those seasons too. Obviously I was living up there then and not down here so I'm not sure what the national consciousness was but I strongly suspect that few people knew anyone on the Blue Jays (or Mariners) or gave a shit about them.

I was young during the era of these two. And being from Michigan, (Clear nights in the summer I could get Jays games in on TV. Still can get em on the radio.)I might not realize the ignorance most of the country had towards Toronto. We had a nice rivalry going when Detroit was still in the East. The Blue Jays were a big deal.(late 80's-early 90's especially) But to me, so were the Tigers. Neither of them were nationally, as I've grown to realize. So some of the overlooking aspect is lost to me. Yankees and Red Sox series weren't selling out at The Corner. Wasn't the case when Toronto was in town.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yes, Morris going 0-2 with an 8.44 ERA while averaging 5.1 innings per start in the 1992 WS was surely a big factor in the Jays winning.

But his 23 innings were 23 innings the bullpen didn't have to go that postseason. Steib didn't pitch at all.

 

[navamind]

Yes, Morris going 0-2 with an 8.44 ERA while averaging 5.1 innings per start in the 1992 WS was surely a big factor in the Jays winning.

How many World Series wins did the Tigers have with Miguel Cabrera? How many did they have with Don Wert?

 

[navamind]

But his 23 innings were 23 innings the bullpen didn't have to go that postseason. Steib didn't pitch at all.

As much as I value innings, is it really worth bringing up when he got shellacked in those 23 innings?

 

[DragonfromTO]

But his 23 innings were 23 innings the bullpen didn't have to go that postseason. Steib didn't pitch at all.

But the bullpen wouldn't have pitched 23 extra innings if Morris didn't though, they would have just moved Jimmy Key back into the rotation for the ALCS and moved Stottlemyre back in for the World Series.

 

[broncosmitty]

As much as I value innings, is it really worth bringing up when he got shellacked in those 23 innings?

Not bragging up. Morris had no control that post season. He gave up more homers in the ALCS than he'd surrendered in his post season career. Then he gave up three more in the WS. But Id still take his innings over no innings.

 

[broncosmitty]

But the bullpen wouldn't have pitched 23 extra innings if Morris didn't though, they would have just moved Jimmy Key back into the rotation for the ALCS and moved Stottlemyre back in for the World Series.

Jimmy Key wasn't in the rotation for the playoffs? I remember him pitching, but don't remember details, bullpen/starting.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Jimmy Key wasn't in the rotation for the playoffs? I remember him pitching, but don't remember details, bullpen/starting.

He started one game in the World Series and pitched great but was in the pen for the ALCS. Stottlemyre spent both series in the pen.

 

[broncosmitty]

Huh, I never realized that. Just assumed he remained a starter the whole time. (And have went my whole baseball fan life with him about even with Steib career-wise.)

 

[StanMarsh51]

He started one game in the World Series and pitched great but was in the pen for the ALCS. Stottlemyre spent both series in the pen.

They also had David Wells in the pen for the playoffs...so while Morris had a 7.77 ERA in his 4 starts that postseason, they had 3 guys who possibly could've done as well or better than he did (they would've needed to average 5.5 innings and allow 4.7 earned runs per start to match what Morris did that postseason).